Vietnam Airlines (info please)
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Low time or 0 time on type crews will be on contract through Rishworth, but one must be accepted through other channels, such as a relative working for the company already, I am not aware of any other way to apply, but I could be wrong.
Cheers, D.L.
Cheers, D.L.
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Hi everybody.
Working in Europe at the moment for a lo-co and looking for something new. Saw that parc is looking for pilots with VAC. I'm A320 FO with 3000 tt of which 2500 bus, would it make sense for me to do it? Any possibilities for a command there after some time? I'm incredibly bored here..
Advice appreciated
Working in Europe at the moment for a lo-co and looking for something new. Saw that parc is looking for pilots with VAC. I'm A320 FO with 3000 tt of which 2500 bus, would it make sense for me to do it? Any possibilities for a command there after some time? I'm incredibly bored here..
Advice appreciated
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Really Tknapp? Everywhere else pays more? Can you tell us who they are?
Outside the Chinese mainland I can't even think of one. And I haven't noticed a great rush of pilots leaving VAC to head north
Outside the Chinese mainland I can't even think of one. And I haven't noticed a great rush of pilots leaving VAC to head north
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Plus Asiana, several Hong Kong airlines, NAS, Tiger, Jetstar Singapore, ANA, Singapore Cargo, Jetstar Vietnam pays about the same, Air Asia pays about the same but rising rapidly. The only airlines that I know that are hiring expats that pay less are the really dodgy airlines in Malaysia and Indonesia.
Vietnam Airlines is a reasonable secure job for the contract world. They are also a fairly lax on background checks and documentation when you get hired. They also UPGRADE FO's, and I heard they are upgrading a bunch of them now as they can't recruit enough expat Captains.
A couple of the Chinese carriers just bumped the pay to 18.5k a month, plus overtime. Most of the rest will probably soon follow. Unfortunately these are not secure jobs, and extremely difficult to get in the first place. I really wouldn't recommend them, and I am there now.
Vietnam Airlines is a reasonable secure job for the contract world. They are also a fairly lax on background checks and documentation when you get hired. They also UPGRADE FO's, and I heard they are upgrading a bunch of them now as they can't recruit enough expat Captains.
A couple of the Chinese carriers just bumped the pay to 18.5k a month, plus overtime. Most of the rest will probably soon follow. Unfortunately these are not secure jobs, and extremely difficult to get in the first place. I really wouldn't recommend them, and I am there now.
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Come on guys I don't know what you're smoking, but there is no way that Jetstar Pacific (or any Jetstar airline), Air Asia, Tiger or any other "low cost" operator on earth, pays anything like VAC. That is just straight up B.S. and you know it, I don't even have to quote the figures, anyone who's interested can go straight onto PPJN and check them out. Especially when you consider the basic for VAC is a 6 + 2 contract and all of those others are either 4 or 6 weeks leave per annum - you'd have to be on a 6+1 or 10+1 contract with VAC to make it comparable in terms of annual leave and hours flown. In which case your basic with VAC as A320 skipper would be around $US13,000 or $14,000. VAC is multiple thousands of dollars ahead it's not even close, even before you factor cost of living in a place like Singapore.
NAS, Flydubai, Air Arabia, EY / EK / QR / take your pick of the sandpit : they are all between $12 - $14 K total package for LHS. So really the choice is between a hot boring third world country where a beer costs $10, or an interesting third world country with a quite nice climate, where a beer costs .30 cents.
"Several Hong Kong airlines" - I call B.S. on that one too, unless you are talking about the Cathay "A" or "B" scale which is long gone. The only way into CX/KA now is a cadet S/O. Hong Kong Airlines doesn't pay anything like as much as VAC.
Korean Air - very similar salary wise, and the 8 days off consecutive / month is pretty cool, it's probably the "other" gold plated long term contract job out there, along with VAC. If you can pass the 80% fail rate line training, then I wish you all the best
Asiana - according to their own website, total package for A320 F/O is $6500 and captain $10,500 - so not even close. Long haul is even further behind.
ANA - yep I'll give you that - pay is comparable to VAC and in captain positions, might be slightly more. F/O positions, looks like a bit less. And as we all know, the cost of living in Tokyo is quite similar to 'nam
Don't get me wrong I'm all in favour of a pay rise and if they give one I'll take it gladly, but there's no point acting all cool and bitching about how low the pay is compared to what else is out there, because the facts don't support the bitching.
NAS, Flydubai, Air Arabia, EY / EK / QR / take your pick of the sandpit : they are all between $12 - $14 K total package for LHS. So really the choice is between a hot boring third world country where a beer costs $10, or an interesting third world country with a quite nice climate, where a beer costs .30 cents.
"Several Hong Kong airlines" - I call B.S. on that one too, unless you are talking about the Cathay "A" or "B" scale which is long gone. The only way into CX/KA now is a cadet S/O. Hong Kong Airlines doesn't pay anything like as much as VAC.
Korean Air - very similar salary wise, and the 8 days off consecutive / month is pretty cool, it's probably the "other" gold plated long term contract job out there, along with VAC. If you can pass the 80% fail rate line training, then I wish you all the best
Asiana - according to their own website, total package for A320 F/O is $6500 and captain $10,500 - so not even close. Long haul is even further behind.
ANA - yep I'll give you that - pay is comparable to VAC and in captain positions, might be slightly more. F/O positions, looks like a bit less. And as we all know, the cost of living in Tokyo is quite similar to 'nam
Don't get me wrong I'm all in favour of a pay rise and if they give one I'll take it gladly, but there's no point acting all cool and bitching about how low the pay is compared to what else is out there, because the facts don't support the bitching.
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Could be tknapp was referring to the ATR fleet. They are way behind when you consider other turboprop pic contracts. However like you say the 6 - 2 and relative job security might make up for the salary for some people.
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Luke;
Here are some recent figures. All in USD. All are 320 jobs, or will hire 320 Captains.
NAS 16k for 6/2
ANA 16k 5/3 Average pay over 5 years
KAL 12.2K 5/3 plus free accomodation
Asiana 10.5 5.5/2.5 free accomodation
Tiger 14k non-commuting
Jetstar 14k non-commuting (Singapore)
Jetstar 10.8 6/2 (vietnam)
Cebu 12k+ 6/2 Changing daily and going up rapidly
Hong Kong Airlines 15k But this might no longer be accurate
Chinese 320 gigs are averaging 16.5k
I don't know the exact figures for Air Asia but I believe it is above 10k.
Everyone of these jobs pays for overtime as well, which makes the VAC job even less competitive. The only way VAC becomes competitive is if you work 9/1 or 10/1. 10 weeks in a row in Saigon would drive me nuts.
I did enjoy my time at VAC, and might go back someday. But the pay right now is too low for me as well. As far as places to live for a contract job, Saigon is worse than any of the above places except NAS (Saudi). Despite the bad rep that China gets, the cities are modern and comfortable, and the pollution is getting cleaned up rapidly. Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou/Shenzhen are all decent places for expats to live, with thriving expat communities. Much better than Saigon.
Why go to VAC?
FO pay is pretty high. (Big +)
They upgrade FO's. (Very Big +)
You can tell your buddies you've been to Nam
flexible time off (sometimes)
you've never been to outer space
Flying is fun
You enjoy MEL's, and like to memorize as many as possible. (Deactivated brakes, no APU, etc)
Why not go?
Low pay for Captains
No overtime pay
your not culturally "sensitive"
horrible commute, except for Aussies
You can't ride a motorcycle
The above are just my opinion of course, except for the pay rates which are accurate as of now, or very close.
Here are some recent figures. All in USD. All are 320 jobs, or will hire 320 Captains.
NAS 16k for 6/2
ANA 16k 5/3 Average pay over 5 years
KAL 12.2K 5/3 plus free accomodation
Asiana 10.5 5.5/2.5 free accomodation
Tiger 14k non-commuting
Jetstar 14k non-commuting (Singapore)
Jetstar 10.8 6/2 (vietnam)
Cebu 12k+ 6/2 Changing daily and going up rapidly
Hong Kong Airlines 15k But this might no longer be accurate
Chinese 320 gigs are averaging 16.5k
I don't know the exact figures for Air Asia but I believe it is above 10k.
Everyone of these jobs pays for overtime as well, which makes the VAC job even less competitive. The only way VAC becomes competitive is if you work 9/1 or 10/1. 10 weeks in a row in Saigon would drive me nuts.
I did enjoy my time at VAC, and might go back someday. But the pay right now is too low for me as well. As far as places to live for a contract job, Saigon is worse than any of the above places except NAS (Saudi). Despite the bad rep that China gets, the cities are modern and comfortable, and the pollution is getting cleaned up rapidly. Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou/Shenzhen are all decent places for expats to live, with thriving expat communities. Much better than Saigon.
Why go to VAC?
FO pay is pretty high. (Big +)
They upgrade FO's. (Very Big +)
You can tell your buddies you've been to Nam
flexible time off (sometimes)
you've never been to outer space
Flying is fun
You enjoy MEL's, and like to memorize as many as possible. (Deactivated brakes, no APU, etc)
Why not go?
Low pay for Captains
No overtime pay
your not culturally "sensitive"
horrible commute, except for Aussies
You can't ride a motorcycle
The above are just my opinion of course, except for the pay rates which are accurate as of now, or very close.
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What USMCProbe says is very true about 320 PIC in VAC.
You will be flying 1000 hours a year in 320, you have my words!!!
You will be flying 3 or even 4 sectors in one day very very often, you have my words!!!
You will be flying 5 or 6 days in a row, all turn around flights with no over night in out station, very very often, and once again, you have my words!!!
Yes, the living cost is Saigon is cheaper than all other cities, but the quality of life is also much much lower than all other cities! So it is really:"You pay what you get" game. You pay less for a beer in Saigon, cause you make less money in VAC. It's very true for a 320 PIC in VAC. And this is exactly why they "only allow" upgrade expat FO in 320 fleet.
BTW, did I mention that you have to pay for all the training cost for the upgrade, and during the upgrade training(3~4 months) you wont have any income, and after the upgrade your salary will be reduced for 10% for the first year as 320 PIC, and after all this ****, you are still to be bonded for 3 years...
Man...why you dont just go to Air Asia for the 320 upgrade?
But for the 330/777 expat PIC, the story is a little bit different.
The salary is actually more or less the same with other airlines, considering you wont get overtime and the basic working pattern is based on 6/2. So if you wanna enjoy and relax a bit, as a 330/777 expat PIC, instead of flying 1000 hours a year for making big overtime, than its very likely that you will have a good time in VAC.
You will be flying 1000 hours a year in 320, you have my words!!!
You will be flying 3 or even 4 sectors in one day very very often, you have my words!!!
You will be flying 5 or 6 days in a row, all turn around flights with no over night in out station, very very often, and once again, you have my words!!!
Yes, the living cost is Saigon is cheaper than all other cities, but the quality of life is also much much lower than all other cities! So it is really:"You pay what you get" game. You pay less for a beer in Saigon, cause you make less money in VAC. It's very true for a 320 PIC in VAC. And this is exactly why they "only allow" upgrade expat FO in 320 fleet.
BTW, did I mention that you have to pay for all the training cost for the upgrade, and during the upgrade training(3~4 months) you wont have any income, and after the upgrade your salary will be reduced for 10% for the first year as 320 PIC, and after all this ****, you are still to be bonded for 3 years...
Man...why you dont just go to Air Asia for the 320 upgrade?
But for the 330/777 expat PIC, the story is a little bit different.
The salary is actually more or less the same with other airlines, considering you wont get overtime and the basic working pattern is based on 6/2. So if you wanna enjoy and relax a bit, as a 330/777 expat PIC, instead of flying 1000 hours a year for making big overtime, than its very likely that you will have a good time in VAC.
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Damn, some of you guys would get into a jacuzzi full of naked supermodels, and complain because the water was too hot
Crying about "quality of life", for christ sake what would it take to make you happy?
I live in a beautiful big 5 bed villa in the expat district, we've got a full time maid and a gardener ($300 a month). We go out to bloody good restaurants and bars every weekend - last friday night it was steaks and cocktails here and then $50 sunday lunch (with bottomless Veuve Clicquot, lobsters and caviar) here. My kid goes to a really top school here, I'll be taking him for a swim in the pool and a run in the playground here this afternoon, which is also where my very nice gym is. My wife and her buddies go spend $5 for an hour long manicure / pedicure / massage two or three times a week here. Last time we had a week off, we went here for some scuba diving with these guys.
That's all off the top of my head without even trying, and obviously I'm not into the nightclubbing / singles scene, which is the biggest attraction of all for a lot of guys here.
I guess some people will turn over every stone to find something to bitch about, but as far as I'm concerned, we live like kings, don't count the cost of anything, we still have $2 or $3,000 left over every month to send home to the investment property - and I'M A DAMN F/O!! The upgrade, if and when it comes, will be a very nice addition to the retirement fund, but it's not really going to affect the lifestyle I already have, money wise.
Obviously it's different strokes for different folks, but my mates who live in very small apartments in HK or Singapore, have come here and been blown away by how we live. Captains who come here and cry about how much everything sucks, I really don't get it at all. And anyone who'd choose an outfit like NAS over this place, needs their head examined.
Crying about "quality of life", for christ sake what would it take to make you happy?
I live in a beautiful big 5 bed villa in the expat district, we've got a full time maid and a gardener ($300 a month). We go out to bloody good restaurants and bars every weekend - last friday night it was steaks and cocktails here and then $50 sunday lunch (with bottomless Veuve Clicquot, lobsters and caviar) here. My kid goes to a really top school here, I'll be taking him for a swim in the pool and a run in the playground here this afternoon, which is also where my very nice gym is. My wife and her buddies go spend $5 for an hour long manicure / pedicure / massage two or three times a week here. Last time we had a week off, we went here for some scuba diving with these guys.
That's all off the top of my head without even trying, and obviously I'm not into the nightclubbing / singles scene, which is the biggest attraction of all for a lot of guys here.
I guess some people will turn over every stone to find something to bitch about, but as far as I'm concerned, we live like kings, don't count the cost of anything, we still have $2 or $3,000 left over every month to send home to the investment property - and I'M A DAMN F/O!! The upgrade, if and when it comes, will be a very nice addition to the retirement fund, but it's not really going to affect the lifestyle I already have, money wise.
Obviously it's different strokes for different folks, but my mates who live in very small apartments in HK or Singapore, have come here and been blown away by how we live. Captains who come here and cry about how much everything sucks, I really don't get it at all. And anyone who'd choose an outfit like NAS over this place, needs their head examined.
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Luke;
Please re-read my post. The numbers are accurate, unless I said otherwise. Why? I have 7 months left on my current contract, and looking at other contracts. The numbers I posted are from contract agencies in the last 30 days.
Not Luke:
All of us are different, with different personnel requirements. I am happy you are happy in Saigon. About half the pilots that get a job there are not, and leave in the first year. I am one of the "other" half, that stayed. And I would go back someday, but right now the pay is not competitive with other gigs I can get as a 320 skipper. Just this morning I talked to another former VAC skipper, and he says the same. He would love to go back, but not to make 65% of the money he can make somewhere else. 10% less - no problem. But not 5k a month.
VAC treated me great, it is a reasonably secure job, and it is probably, without a doubt, the best place for a 320 FO to become a Captain, at least in the contract world.
It is a great job. VAC, like all airlines, is trying to figure out how to get pilots to work for them, for less. VAC's strategy is to get some poor smuck low time Euro-FO to pay them 50K USD for an upgrade, then pay them less than a PIC, with a 3 year bond. It is working, both for them, and the FO's. I give both a thumbs up. The airline gets cheap skippers, and the FO's get a command. Brilliant.
But that is keeping me from going back. No worries. Lots of other jobs that pay much more, in better places to live. Maybe someday it will change, maybe not.
Please re-read my post. The numbers are accurate, unless I said otherwise. Why? I have 7 months left on my current contract, and looking at other contracts. The numbers I posted are from contract agencies in the last 30 days.
Not Luke:
All of us are different, with different personnel requirements. I am happy you are happy in Saigon. About half the pilots that get a job there are not, and leave in the first year. I am one of the "other" half, that stayed. And I would go back someday, but right now the pay is not competitive with other gigs I can get as a 320 skipper. Just this morning I talked to another former VAC skipper, and he says the same. He would love to go back, but not to make 65% of the money he can make somewhere else. 10% less - no problem. But not 5k a month.
VAC treated me great, it is a reasonably secure job, and it is probably, without a doubt, the best place for a 320 FO to become a Captain, at least in the contract world.
It is a great job. VAC, like all airlines, is trying to figure out how to get pilots to work for them, for less. VAC's strategy is to get some poor smuck low time Euro-FO to pay them 50K USD for an upgrade, then pay them less than a PIC, with a 3 year bond. It is working, both for them, and the FO's. I give both a thumbs up. The airline gets cheap skippers, and the FO's get a command. Brilliant.
But that is keeping me from going back. No worries. Lots of other jobs that pay much more, in better places to live. Maybe someday it will change, maybe not.
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Regarding if VAC is good or not I would say it all boils down to one big issue.
Looking back I what I miss from Nam is the private life. Luke Skytoddler gave a very accurate picture I would say.
What I don't miss is the time travel 50 years, at least, backwards you do if you come from a decent company, regarding flight safety, CRM and some kind of job security.
Don't get me wrong, this is not bashing of pilots from the "third world". Some of the guys I met was also the best and most professional ones I've ever met and some was the worst. As it is with a mix of guys from all over the globe.
What I'm talking about is this.
<Step on the wrong persons toes and you're immediately out. For whatever reason there could be. FO got fired because he annoyed the chief pilots son. Had absolutely nothing to do with flight safety, or even flying. I got my contract terminated because young FO with substandard English but right dad thought we were illegal fuel wise.
<Have a mishap, technical or operational, do everything right and according to the books and you're out or grounded anyway.
<Before going to work pray to whoever you believe in that nothing will happen during today's flights because the colleagues you're working with aren't able to communicate in English.
<Forever argue with people that see the MEL as a hindrance that should be cheated in the most convenient way.
Looking back I what I miss from Nam is the private life. Luke Skytoddler gave a very accurate picture I would say.
What I don't miss is the time travel 50 years, at least, backwards you do if you come from a decent company, regarding flight safety, CRM and some kind of job security.
Don't get me wrong, this is not bashing of pilots from the "third world". Some of the guys I met was also the best and most professional ones I've ever met and some was the worst. As it is with a mix of guys from all over the globe.
What I'm talking about is this.
<Step on the wrong persons toes and you're immediately out. For whatever reason there could be. FO got fired because he annoyed the chief pilots son. Had absolutely nothing to do with flight safety, or even flying. I got my contract terminated because young FO with substandard English but right dad thought we were illegal fuel wise.
<Have a mishap, technical or operational, do everything right and according to the books and you're out or grounded anyway.
<Before going to work pray to whoever you believe in that nothing will happen during today's flights because the colleagues you're working with aren't able to communicate in English.
<Forever argue with people that see the MEL as a hindrance that should be cheated in the most convenient way.
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Olepilot;
I agree 100%, but unfortunately "blame the foreigner" is the unwritten rule in the vast majority of the world, outside of maybe 20 countries or so. Not just flying, but civil law as well. That is a risk we take when we leave our "real world" jobs and head out for some fun an adventure in wild west of contract flying.
I would like to say it is worth it, but then I haven't been "blamed" for anything yet. I am sure I would feel otherwise if it happened to me.
I agree 100%, but unfortunately "blame the foreigner" is the unwritten rule in the vast majority of the world, outside of maybe 20 countries or so. Not just flying, but civil law as well. That is a risk we take when we leave our "real world" jobs and head out for some fun an adventure in wild west of contract flying.
I would like to say it is worth it, but then I haven't been "blamed" for anything yet. I am sure I would feel otherwise if it happened to me.
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Part time flying
Hi guys
From anyone in VN at the moment, what's the chance of getting 5/3 or 4/4 on the 320 (Capt). I asked Parc this a while ago but they were pretty vague about the chances.
Also is there any chance of getting onto the 330 from 320? I have 4000+ command on 320.
Thanks
From anyone in VN at the moment, what's the chance of getting 5/3 or 4/4 on the 320 (Capt). I asked Parc this a while ago but they were pretty vague about the chances.
Also is there any chance of getting onto the 330 from 320? I have 4000+ command on 320.
Thanks
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5/3 and 4/4 is almost impossible to get right now on the 320 since we are short CPTs. Some are leaving for other contracts or permanent jobs.
Not saying it doesn't happen but just not at this time. A window every once in awhile opens up and people scurry on over there for the better Roster and pay. QOL is night and day between the 320 and 330 fleets especially for CPTs.
In general, NOTHING happens here quick - just be patient and hope you don't piss some local FO off that has a powerful last name in the meantime.
Not saying it doesn't happen but just not at this time. A window every once in awhile opens up and people scurry on over there for the better Roster and pay. QOL is night and day between the 320 and 330 fleets especially for CPTs.
In general, NOTHING happens here quick - just be patient and hope you don't piss some local FO off that has a powerful last name in the meantime.
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Olepilot;
I agree 100%, but unfortunately "blame the foreigner" is the unwritten rule in the vast majority of the world, outside of maybe 20 countries or so. Not just flying, but civil law as well. That is a risk we take when we leave our "real world" jobs and head out for some fun an adventure in wild west of contract flying.
I would like to say it is worth it, but then I haven't been "blamed" for anything yet. I am sure I would feel otherwise if it happened to me. .........
I blame you for giving business cards out to other guys girlfriends on the back of their moto-bikes at stop lights.
I agree 100%, but unfortunately "blame the foreigner" is the unwritten rule in the vast majority of the world, outside of maybe 20 countries or so. Not just flying, but civil law as well. That is a risk we take when we leave our "real world" jobs and head out for some fun an adventure in wild west of contract flying.
I would like to say it is worth it, but then I haven't been "blamed" for anything yet. I am sure I would feel otherwise if it happened to me. .........
I blame you for giving business cards out to other guys girlfriends on the back of their moto-bikes at stop lights.
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Guys Luke is still in his honeymoon period maybe?
And i guess he's not on the 320.
Just my assumptions
A 5 bedroom villa as an FO? Must be on 777 salary or maybe 330. With all the time off that gives.
I'd treat it all with a grain of salt to be honest.
And i guess he's not on the 320.
Just my assumptions
A 5 bedroom villa as an FO? Must be on 777 salary or maybe 330. With all the time off that gives.
I'd treat it all with a grain of salt to be honest.