Clark Institute of Aviation
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I've seen people with hundreds of hours logged on the Bus and still don't know heck about "stick and rudder flying" or basic flying skills (for the uninitiated) 
And these guys have thousands of hours logged before they flew the Bus.
I don't have anything against the CIA students, in fact I think they will be the new pioneers in this trade. It all depends on the attitude of the student, on how willing they are to learn and acquire the skills needed in flying an aircraft, or if they're just in it for the glamour and "mucho dinero" that is perceived to be in this profession
. The A320 will help them come up to speed in that this aircraft is easy to fly with automation, still easy with alternate law, but requires a little more attention in direct law. If you know your SOPs and regulations, then decision making will be a lot easier for the neophyte. Couple this with proper LINE EXPOSURE and you have the makings of a good pilot. It may sound easy, but I assure you, nothing comes easy in this profession. Its all study, study and more studies! Experience counts, but it doesn't necessarily make one a good pilot.
And these guys have thousands of hours logged before they flew the Bus.I don't have anything against the CIA students, in fact I think they will be the new pioneers in this trade. It all depends on the attitude of the student, on how willing they are to learn and acquire the skills needed in flying an aircraft, or if they're just in it for the glamour and "mucho dinero" that is perceived to be in this profession
. The A320 will help them come up to speed in that this aircraft is easy to fly with automation, still easy with alternate law, but requires a little more attention in direct law. If you know your SOPs and regulations, then decision making will be a lot easier for the neophyte. Couple this with proper LINE EXPOSURE and you have the makings of a good pilot. It may sound easy, but I assure you, nothing comes easy in this profession. Its all study, study and more studies! Experience counts, but it doesn't necessarily make one a good pilot.
Last edited by Navitimer; 6th Nov 2007 at 07:06. Reason: added a few more words and comments!
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Navitimer's apprehension to the program is well founded.
Would good studying habits and state of the art training facilities really can replace actual command hours whether on a twin or a single engine ???
One Cebu Pac Captain even mentioned that he had a new hire who can't even do the radio calls let alone someone who only has 70 hours.
Is this what aviation has come down to ? A systems opereator rather than a pilot.
What would happen if the Captain was incapacitated during an approach in bad weather with an in-flight shutdown of one engine ?
Can the airline truly say that the passengers are safe ? Remember, this is where we earn our money. Any idiot can push buttons and move control levers.
Friends, let us remember the quote: EXPERIENCE IS THE BEST TEACHER
Good command decisions are not bourne out of simulators and flying schools but thru actual experience.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Would good studying habits and state of the art training facilities really can replace actual command hours whether on a twin or a single engine ???
One Cebu Pac Captain even mentioned that he had a new hire who can't even do the radio calls let alone someone who only has 70 hours.
Is this what aviation has come down to ? A systems opereator rather than a pilot.
What would happen if the Captain was incapacitated during an approach in bad weather with an in-flight shutdown of one engine ?
Can the airline truly say that the passengers are safe ? Remember, this is where we earn our money. Any idiot can push buttons and move control levers.
Friends, let us remember the quote: EXPERIENCE IS THE BEST TEACHER
Good command decisions are not bourne out of simulators and flying schools but thru actual experience.
Just my 2 cents worth.
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Just to set it straight, I am not vouching for ACTUAL EXPERIENCE being the only measure. My only apprehensions to the MPL program is if it will just be made into a program by the training provider to make a quick buck from the aspirants AND for the student to think that this is just a shortcut to the dream of every pilot wannabe, to get into an established airline without sweating it out. This mix is very unsafe, and should have no place in the aviation industry.
However, I believe proper training methods and improved training equipment (like Level D simulators and MFTDs) will be sufficient enough to mold these students into pilots that can qualify for the right seat of any aircraft. ICAO has laid out stringent requirements for the MPL program, and I think these should be the BARE MINIMUMS to be observed by any training facility that would cater to this program. Also, it should also be the partner airline's responsibility to make sure that these requirements are addressed and fully implemented. Who gets to fly with them after they graduate, right? The students' progress should be strictly monitored and evaluations given every step of the way. That, I believe, is how the bad eggs can be weeded out of the program.
My post regarding high timers not knowing basic stuff is to point out that even though they have lots of time under them, these pilots have been gaining the WRONG EXPERIENCE and thus cannot fall back on their acquired hours to save them when they start lagging behind the aircraft. I should have added that I've also seen low timers flying the Bus like they were meant for the LEFT SEAT because they fully understood the equipment, its systems and have a good working knowledge of procedures and regulations. I know I'll be gaining the wrath of all those who believe that these MPL students or so-called "pilot wannabees" have no place in the airline industry but if we can propose more stringent safeguards and checks for these guys instead of bashing them to the ground, we might just give this industry of ours a much needed boost in terms of safety and economic viability.
No arguments, just my two cents worth also!
However, I believe proper training methods and improved training equipment (like Level D simulators and MFTDs) will be sufficient enough to mold these students into pilots that can qualify for the right seat of any aircraft. ICAO has laid out stringent requirements for the MPL program, and I think these should be the BARE MINIMUMS to be observed by any training facility that would cater to this program. Also, it should also be the partner airline's responsibility to make sure that these requirements are addressed and fully implemented. Who gets to fly with them after they graduate, right? The students' progress should be strictly monitored and evaluations given every step of the way. That, I believe, is how the bad eggs can be weeded out of the program.
My post regarding high timers not knowing basic stuff is to point out that even though they have lots of time under them, these pilots have been gaining the WRONG EXPERIENCE and thus cannot fall back on their acquired hours to save them when they start lagging behind the aircraft. I should have added that I've also seen low timers flying the Bus like they were meant for the LEFT SEAT because they fully understood the equipment, its systems and have a good working knowledge of procedures and regulations. I know I'll be gaining the wrath of all those who believe that these MPL students or so-called "pilot wannabees" have no place in the airline industry but if we can propose more stringent safeguards and checks for these guys instead of bashing them to the ground, we might just give this industry of ours a much needed boost in terms of safety and economic viability.
No arguments, just my two cents worth also!
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MPL
The technical skills are undoubtedly will be there, but I just can't see how it could replace someone who has flying experience.
Maybe, I have been left by the times and MAYBE these simulators can replace someone with the RIGHT flight experience but that is still to be seen and proved.
I have always asked this - It might be legal, but is it safe?
Then ask yourself why is it that even up to now, most airlines require at least 500 hours to fly a 40-60 seat turbines as F/Os an not 70 hour pilots ?
Airphil even requires 1500 hours total time.
These 70 hour pilots are not even licensed to carry passengers on a single engine and they are allowed as a crew in an airliner carrying over 150 paying passengers.
I know that most of them are Bupac scholars but their website still require at least 1,000 hours minimum total time for F/Os.
Not unless of course I have not seen the website and they have already reduced it to 70 hours total flying time and and 60 hours on Level D sim and you are almost 100% employable.
It just doesn't make sense. Way I look at it, it is a shortcut so the airline can fulfill it's requirements. I'm not even sure if ATO recognizes MPL as a license.
The lowest time requirement I have seen so far is India. Even then they have not gone down to as low as 70 hours and a type rating.
I rest my case.
Maybe, I have been left by the times and MAYBE these simulators can replace someone with the RIGHT flight experience but that is still to be seen and proved.
I have always asked this - It might be legal, but is it safe?
Then ask yourself why is it that even up to now, most airlines require at least 500 hours to fly a 40-60 seat turbines as F/Os an not 70 hour pilots ?
Airphil even requires 1500 hours total time.
These 70 hour pilots are not even licensed to carry passengers on a single engine and they are allowed as a crew in an airliner carrying over 150 paying passengers.
I know that most of them are Bupac scholars but their website still require at least 1,000 hours minimum total time for F/Os.
Not unless of course I have not seen the website and they have already reduced it to 70 hours total flying time and and 60 hours on Level D sim and you are almost 100% employable.
It just doesn't make sense. Way I look at it, it is a shortcut so the airline can fulfill it's requirements. I'm not even sure if ATO recognizes MPL as a license.
The lowest time requirement I have seen so far is India. Even then they have not gone down to as low as 70 hours and a type rating.
I rest my case.
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Then ask yourself why is it that even up to now, most airlines require at least 500 hours to fly a 40-60 seat turbines as F/Os an not 70 hour pilots ?
Airphil even requires 1500 hours total time.
Way I look at it, it is a shortcut so the airline can fulfill it's requirements.
Exactly. Because its a totally new program, different from what has been the standard industry practice in place for decades. Even ICAO admits that its breaking into new territory when it proposed the MPL program to the aviation industry. I would advance the opinion that its primarily because of the advent of such advanced trainers that they are seeing a steady shift in the importance of training pilots early on to work in a multi-crew environment. This could lead to CRM being the norm than individual skills being put into play that could eventually come into conflict with each other.
To reference the 8 Laws by Airbus in flying their aircraft, it never stated there that in order to fly their planes, one must have logged hundreds of hours. It just stated that it can be flown like any other a/c, to back each other up, one head up all the time, proper use of automation, fly, navigate and communicate, in that order and so on. New generation aircraft have reduced most of the workload of yore to a mere push of a button. It is now mostly managing the system as a whole to get the mission done. Low timers WILL definitely be flying with high timers, that cannot be denied. It is in this arrangement where ones experience can best be transferred to the guy on the right seat. This is where the MPL program will need to be clearly defined, as safety will surely be an issue. But as I have just recently learned, safety is the proper management of risks in order to complete a defined task, not the elimination of threats. There will always be that small percentage of error, that even experienced crews must learn to properly handle.
EVA, Singapore and most other major carriers have in place a cadet program that provides them with pilots having around 200 to 250 hours. Their training expenses run up to the thousands due to the fact that they are using state of the art equipment (from single prop piston-engined planes to light jets). They are placed on the right seat of wide-bodied jets where they gain most of their flying skills (radio procedures, instrument flight procedures and basic CRM skills). Have there been a deluge of accidents wherein these low timer pilots are a contributing factor? I don't think it may make much difference if we just change the training aids used. But as I stated earlier, this is perceived to be breaking into new ground.
For now, we'll just have to wait and see. ATO may not have approved the MPL per se, but I believe they are giving approval to its different modules as they are finished. The CIA student pilots are now undergoing their flying phase, the first 70 hours, so it will still be some time before we can get good feedback with regard to their performance in the A320 simulator. As in any pioneering work, this is turning up more headaches that it can cure, but eventually this could be a viable program for the airlines.
And I think they are looking at more than 170 hours in the sim, not just 60.
Airphil even requires 1500 hours total time.
Way I look at it, it is a shortcut so the airline can fulfill it's requirements.
Exactly. Because its a totally new program, different from what has been the standard industry practice in place for decades. Even ICAO admits that its breaking into new territory when it proposed the MPL program to the aviation industry. I would advance the opinion that its primarily because of the advent of such advanced trainers that they are seeing a steady shift in the importance of training pilots early on to work in a multi-crew environment. This could lead to CRM being the norm than individual skills being put into play that could eventually come into conflict with each other.
To reference the 8 Laws by Airbus in flying their aircraft, it never stated there that in order to fly their planes, one must have logged hundreds of hours. It just stated that it can be flown like any other a/c, to back each other up, one head up all the time, proper use of automation, fly, navigate and communicate, in that order and so on. New generation aircraft have reduced most of the workload of yore to a mere push of a button. It is now mostly managing the system as a whole to get the mission done. Low timers WILL definitely be flying with high timers, that cannot be denied. It is in this arrangement where ones experience can best be transferred to the guy on the right seat. This is where the MPL program will need to be clearly defined, as safety will surely be an issue. But as I have just recently learned, safety is the proper management of risks in order to complete a defined task, not the elimination of threats. There will always be that small percentage of error, that even experienced crews must learn to properly handle.
EVA, Singapore and most other major carriers have in place a cadet program that provides them with pilots having around 200 to 250 hours. Their training expenses run up to the thousands due to the fact that they are using state of the art equipment (from single prop piston-engined planes to light jets). They are placed on the right seat of wide-bodied jets where they gain most of their flying skills (radio procedures, instrument flight procedures and basic CRM skills). Have there been a deluge of accidents wherein these low timer pilots are a contributing factor? I don't think it may make much difference if we just change the training aids used. But as I stated earlier, this is perceived to be breaking into new ground.
For now, we'll just have to wait and see. ATO may not have approved the MPL per se, but I believe they are giving approval to its different modules as they are finished. The CIA student pilots are now undergoing their flying phase, the first 70 hours, so it will still be some time before we can get good feedback with regard to their performance in the A320 simulator. As in any pioneering work, this is turning up more headaches that it can cure, but eventually this could be a viable program for the airlines.
And I think they are looking at more than 170 hours in the sim, not just 60.
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hello
Hi Delta6,
How's flying in India?
No joy pa rin ba sa PAL and cebupac?
Alpha Aviation of CIA represented Philippines in the just recently concluded DUBAI airshow. I saw their booth inside the exhibition hall.
Airline companies will do anything to get the Pilots they need for the expansion, no matter what, even if it means reducing the time to 70.
Changes are happening around the Gulf too, imagine one company is needing 1500 pilots. Where are they gonna get it? I dont know. Have you heard of Emirates ordering 70 A350s? yah, you read it right and they have an option of 50 more and the 380s? from 45, its 58 now!. They are doubling the fleet in the next few years.
So, just imagine there is a lot of space for everyone.
All the best!
C1052
How's flying in India?
No joy pa rin ba sa PAL and cebupac?
Alpha Aviation of CIA represented Philippines in the just recently concluded DUBAI airshow. I saw their booth inside the exhibition hall.
Airline companies will do anything to get the Pilots they need for the expansion, no matter what, even if it means reducing the time to 70.
Changes are happening around the Gulf too, imagine one company is needing 1500 pilots. Where are they gonna get it? I dont know. Have you heard of Emirates ordering 70 A350s? yah, you read it right and they have an option of 50 more and the 380s? from 45, its 58 now!. They are doubling the fleet in the next few years.
So, just imagine there is a lot of space for everyone.
All the best!
C1052
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Navitimer - This subject would've easily degenerated into a slanging match on other threads 
thank you for the friendly discussion.
Hi there Cesssna1052..... will fill you in on the details, check your email.
Those spaces you mentioned, anymore of them ???
....
.....
D6
thank you for the friendly discussion. Hi there Cesssna1052..... will fill you in on the details, check your email.
Those spaces you mentioned, anymore of them ???
......... D6
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D6,
I respect your opinions too. Magkabaro tayo di ba?
We need not do what the others do when we can enjoy it over a bottle of beer, right? Or any bottle for that matter
When we have the time, kita kits! Ingat sa liparan lagi!
I respect your opinions too. Magkabaro tayo di ba?
We need not do what the others do when we can enjoy it over a bottle of beer, right? Or any bottle for that matter When we have the time, kita kits! Ingat sa liparan lagi!
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Funding for Training in Clark
Hi Everyone!
For those who are currently enrolled in Clark Institute of Aviation (and for others who may also know), how were you able to look for funding for the remainder of the training cost after the partial sponsorship from Cebu Pacific?
I think this will still amount to about Php 2 million which is a big amount. Loans or scholarships from external organizations perhaps? I am looking for possible ways to fund my training at Clark.
Thanks!
Calvin
For those who are currently enrolled in Clark Institute of Aviation (and for others who may also know), how were you able to look for funding for the remainder of the training cost after the partial sponsorship from Cebu Pacific?
I think this will still amount to about Php 2 million which is a big amount. Loans or scholarships from external organizations perhaps? I am looking for possible ways to fund my training at Clark.
Thanks!
Calvin
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Funding for CIA training
Calvin_1912
Cal - I've got a few in mind, just pick one:
1 - Naked pole dancing 24/7 at Olongapo - great tips !!
2 - Rob a bank
3 - Marry the bosses daughter
4 - Join the mafia for money laundering
Seriously, I spoke to a couple of the students and one of them said that he borrowed it from his parents. He is already married and his wife is supporting him while he goes thru this training.
Another one has a father that works for an overseas airline.
So, most of the partial scholars have borrowed from parents and relatives who are well off.
But nearly or most of the ones I've talked to have 100% scholarship from Cebu Pac.
Goodluck
8Ball
Cal - I've got a few in mind, just pick one:
1 - Naked pole dancing 24/7 at Olongapo - great tips !!
2 - Rob a bank
3 - Marry the bosses daughter
4 - Join the mafia for money laundering
Seriously, I spoke to a couple of the students and one of them said that he borrowed it from his parents. He is already married and his wife is supporting him while he goes thru this training.
Another one has a father that works for an overseas airline.
So, most of the partial scholars have borrowed from parents and relatives who are well off.
But nearly or most of the ones I've talked to have 100% scholarship from Cebu Pac.
Goodluck
8Ball
Last edited by Eight Ball; 24th Nov 2007 at 13:25.
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For Pinoy Flight Instructors
Salamalaikum,
Sorry to divert a liitle from the topic. For all Pinoy FIs, look at this site:
http://www1.sniperhire.net/sniperhire/careers/dae/university/vacancysearch.aspx?companyid=38
select flight crew training instructors under the vacancy ID/title. They are offering a very good package.
Just give it a try guys
http://www1.sniperhire.net/sniperhire/careers/dae/university/vacancysearch.aspx?companyid=38
A6
Sorry to divert a liitle from the topic. For all Pinoy FIs, look at this site:
http://www1.sniperhire.net/sniperhire/careers/dae/university/vacancysearch.aspx?companyid=38
select flight crew training instructors under the vacancy ID/title. They are offering a very good package.
Just give it a try guys
http://www1.sniperhire.net/sniperhire/careers/dae/university/vacancysearch.aspx?companyid=38
A6
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Re: For Pinoy Flight Instructors
Wow! 
What a package for instructors, those pay rates are almost comparable FO airline positions in the UAE. Wish our pilot schools could pay the same rates (or even half... or a quarter) for instructors in the Philippines.
I don't see how Clark Aviation will be able to recruit suitably qualified instructors with that sort of competition. They are in big trouble as it is....
What a package for instructors, those pay rates are almost comparable FO airline positions in the UAE. Wish our pilot schools could pay the same rates (or even half... or a quarter) for instructors in the Philippines. I don't see how Clark Aviation will be able to recruit suitably qualified instructors with that sort of competition. They are in big trouble as it is....
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Flight Instructing at DAE Uni
Wow !!!......... good package. I'll think about it if nothing happens with Cebu Pac. Thanks to Alpha 6
Has anyone seen the Rishworth website in their pilot job ads ??? Now I'm convinced that there is a worldwide shortage of pilots. From Airbus, Boeings, to ATRs.
Also, got an email regarding instructing the cadets for SIA and possible upgrade to SIA mainline. So, there's also a shortage on F.I.s
I'm sick of doing license conversions though.
Has anyone seen the Rishworth website in their pilot job ads ??? Now I'm convinced that there is a worldwide shortage of pilots. From Airbus, Boeings, to ATRs.
Also, got an email regarding instructing the cadets for SIA and possible upgrade to SIA mainline. So, there's also a shortage on F.I.s
I'm sick of doing license conversions though.
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Funding for CIA training
Hahaha! Thanks Eight Ball!
Borrowing from relatives who are well of is definitely a safe way to fund one's training. Kailangan lang kapalan ang mukha! Hehe!
By the way, you said that most of the ones you know who are studying in CIA had 100% scholarship. You mean that they are existing employees of Cebu Pacific? Because from the way I know it, they offer 50% scholarship to "outsiders" and 100% only to CP employees. Am I missing something?
Thanks again!
Borrowing from relatives who are well of is definitely a safe way to fund one's training. Kailangan lang kapalan ang mukha! Hehe!
By the way, you said that most of the ones you know who are studying in CIA had 100% scholarship. You mean that they are existing employees of Cebu Pacific? Because from the way I know it, they offer 50% scholarship to "outsiders" and 100% only to CP employees. Am I missing something?
Thanks again!
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Hi jester_icarus!
When you said training for less than 2M pesos, did you mean PAL Aviation School? The reason I like the schoalrship package of Cebu Pacific and CIA is that they are guaranteeing a spot as First Officer.
I heard that if you are not sponsored, it will take quite a while for an airline to actually employ you since they require lots of flying hours. Is this right?
When you said training for less than 2M pesos, did you mean PAL Aviation School? The reason I like the schoalrship package of Cebu Pacific and CIA is that they are guaranteeing a spot as First Officer.
I heard that if you are not sponsored, it will take quite a while for an airline to actually employ you since they require lots of flying hours. Is this right?
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guarantee?!
calvin,
Flight Safety International had the same ad. Flight train at their school and guarantee an interview. What they (FSI) dont say is that they start eliminating studets from the begginning. I mean s student will go through the whole PPL to CPL but at the end only a handfull will get a chance to interview for a spot for an airline. What im trying to say is..nothing is guarantee.
Twelve months from now the market may change..and therefore demand for pilots may dwindle.
MPL.. its nice that if all goes through you will be on the right seat...WOW..thats a dream come true..for all aviators. at least the ones that i know. But then you will still need to work on our CPL since you cannot be PIC on any aircraft (from what i understand). This will be another expense.
Hindsight...if i had the money when i first started flight training..maybe i would go that route. But then again...the debt??!! whew.. i have a friend that has a loan amount of $80K us!!!! in fact if i could afford it right now i would go and get a Type Rating on an A319/320..and apply for Cebu Pak.. but then again even this is not guarantee.
Of course if everything goes as promised then...viola...instant AirBus driver!!!!! very envious.....If you can afford it.
Ive got 3000 hours and im still pondering options...
Good Luck...
"keep the blue side up"
PS..and yes Airlines do require lots of hours. But in the states there is also a pilot shortage. Most regionals you can get in at 500 hours total.. and theres some regionals where 250 (CPL min) is all you need. But of course if you are not a US citizen..it may be a bit hard to fly in the states.
Flight Safety International had the same ad. Flight train at their school and guarantee an interview. What they (FSI) dont say is that they start eliminating studets from the begginning. I mean s student will go through the whole PPL to CPL but at the end only a handfull will get a chance to interview for a spot for an airline. What im trying to say is..nothing is guarantee.
Twelve months from now the market may change..and therefore demand for pilots may dwindle.
MPL.. its nice that if all goes through you will be on the right seat...WOW..thats a dream come true..for all aviators. at least the ones that i know. But then you will still need to work on our CPL since you cannot be PIC on any aircraft (from what i understand). This will be another expense.
Hindsight...if i had the money when i first started flight training..maybe i would go that route. But then again...the debt??!! whew.. i have a friend that has a loan amount of $80K us!!!! in fact if i could afford it right now i would go and get a Type Rating on an A319/320..and apply for Cebu Pak.. but then again even this is not guarantee.
Of course if everything goes as promised then...viola...instant AirBus driver!!!!! very envious.....If you can afford it.
Ive got 3000 hours and im still pondering options...
Good Luck...
"keep the blue side up"
PS..and yes Airlines do require lots of hours. But in the states there is also a pilot shortage. Most regionals you can get in at 500 hours total.. and theres some regionals where 250 (CPL min) is all you need. But of course if you are not a US citizen..it may be a bit hard to fly in the states.
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Calvin, yes most of them who got 100% scholarships are CP employees ranging from flight attendants, despatch, management and some are relatives of CP employees ( I could be wrong on the last one)
So, there you go... Other half are 50% subsidized.
On the other hand, if you already have the CPL/IR, SimCenter in Miami Florida is offering an A320 type rating for 12,000 USD only.
With CIA, you need 80k USD for Ab-initio through to A320 TR.
Hope this helps.
So, there you go... Other half are 50% subsidized.
On the other hand, if you already have the CPL/IR, SimCenter in Miami Florida is offering an A320 type rating for 12,000 USD only.
With CIA, you need 80k USD for Ab-initio through to A320 TR.
Hope this helps.