Singaporean self-sponsored CPL holders - where are you?
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Self-Sponsored CPL in Australia
I'm planning to take my CPL in Australia (either Perth or Sydney), after having worked my ass of for 4 years in Singapore. I visited some flight schools at Jandakot a few months ago; nobody was willing to give or discuss employment statistics of their graduates.
Has anyone here (Singaporean) landed flying jobs after graduating from Australian schools recently? I am emptying out my life savings, which may not be enough to cover living costs during training. Therefore, I would also like to find out whether it is 'easy' to find a part-time job (eg. in a supermarket, etc). How does one go about finding such work (need work visa, etc)?
Any help is greatly appreciated, please reply here or PM for confidential information. Thanks!
Has anyone here (Singaporean) landed flying jobs after graduating from Australian schools recently? I am emptying out my life savings, which may not be enough to cover living costs during training. Therefore, I would also like to find out whether it is 'easy' to find a part-time job (eg. in a supermarket, etc). How does one go about finding such work (need work visa, etc)?
Any help is greatly appreciated, please reply here or PM for confidential information. Thanks!
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Lofty Dreams, you should read thru this entire thread before embarking on your mission to get a CPL.
Do you know how many 'self sponsored' CPL/ATPL are basically stagnating -some for many years.I my self know 5 guys with ATPL working a stewards they have maxed out their interview options.
Bottom line: the majors don't like self sponsored for very obvious reasons.
You have a better chance with Jetstar/Tiger cadet scheme at STTA.
Do you know how many 'self sponsored' CPL/ATPL are basically stagnating -some for many years.I my self know 5 guys with ATPL working a stewards they have maxed out their interview options.
Bottom line: the majors don't like self sponsored for very obvious reasons.
You have a better chance with Jetstar/Tiger cadet scheme at STTA.
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Self sponsored
Yea a cadet pilot program is best, tiger and Jetstar are steering in the direction of hiring through their cadet programs, with so many flying schools these days, they'll pretty much accept anyone, it's the airlines interviews that are alot stricter on their criteria. When I was in ground school, there was a guy with dyslexia and another one with a hearing aid on private sponsorship.
Another famous example is this guy who failed the SQ interview a few times, in the end got his CPL through private means, came back and reinterviewed and was turned down again. He wrote to several local newspapers and members of parliament, blaming foreign pilots, biasness, etc. and their reply was epic, yes you have the license, etc but you do not have the personality or character required to be an airline pilot.
Another famous example is this guy who failed the SQ interview a few times, in the end got his CPL through private means, came back and reinterviewed and was turned down again. He wrote to several local newspapers and members of parliament, blaming foreign pilots, biasness, etc. and their reply was epic, yes you have the license, etc but you do not have the personality or character required to be an airline pilot.
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At interview stage they hire more zero hour pimple faced kids than angry self-sponsored, come Hell or High water "Ok, i'll get my own ATPL" guys.
Use your imagination and think why it's been like this for years.
Use your imagination and think why it's been like this for years.
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Dear Lofty Dreams,
Plenty of questions to ask yourself before you start pouring your life savings away.
Do you wanna be an airline pilot for a Singapore-registered airline? If you do, then you're better off doing a MPL / cadet course with an airline here. At least there are some sense of certainty after your training (so long as you grease the interviews, and don't screw up during your training). Don't just go do a CPL course at some country with some mickey mouse flying school. You need to make sure that the course is recognized by CAAS for conversion purposes. If you do come back with a recognized foreign CPL, you have to re-write all 14 ground school exams here in Singapore (additional $$) unless you manage to clock 700 recognized hours.
Flying courses in Singapore aren't cheap. But at least accommodation during your overseas training is covered, which protects you in a VERY LIKELY scenario of delays and prolonged training. If you go to Perth on your own, any delays means more expenses e.g. housing, which will burn a big hole in your pocket.
Which flying school are you targeting in Jandakot anyway? DO NOT STEP INTO RACWA!
Plenty of questions to ask yourself before you start pouring your life savings away.
Do you wanna be an airline pilot for a Singapore-registered airline? If you do, then you're better off doing a MPL / cadet course with an airline here. At least there are some sense of certainty after your training (so long as you grease the interviews, and don't screw up during your training). Don't just go do a CPL course at some country with some mickey mouse flying school. You need to make sure that the course is recognized by CAAS for conversion purposes. If you do come back with a recognized foreign CPL, you have to re-write all 14 ground school exams here in Singapore (additional $$) unless you manage to clock 700 recognized hours.
Flying courses in Singapore aren't cheap. But at least accommodation during your overseas training is covered, which protects you in a VERY LIKELY scenario of delays and prolonged training. If you go to Perth on your own, any delays means more expenses e.g. housing, which will burn a big hole in your pocket.
Which flying school are you targeting in Jandakot anyway? DO NOT STEP INTO RACWA!
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Hi everyone. Thanks for the information and advice given in this thread and through PM. It seems that most are advocating for the MPL and unfortunately its cost is still a big barrier for me. If I do manage to find a reasonable way of funding the programme, I would strongly consider it.
I did my sums for the Aussie CPL after my visit, and concluded that it really is not 'much cheaper', especially when the risk of not having a job is factored in. I can go to where jobs are, but having lurked around this forum, I have also seen that most countries have become protective of their flying jobs. Flying monkeyz, appreciate your point about the accommodation cost in case of training delays. Perth, liveable city as it is, is not a cheap city.
And yes, I have also heard of some unemployed CPL holders in SG (some from MFA, some from Aussie). I would also believe that the numbers are quite substantial.
I did my sums for the Aussie CPL after my visit, and concluded that it really is not 'much cheaper', especially when the risk of not having a job is factored in. I can go to where jobs are, but having lurked around this forum, I have also seen that most countries have become protective of their flying jobs. Flying monkeyz, appreciate your point about the accommodation cost in case of training delays. Perth, liveable city as it is, is not a cheap city.
And yes, I have also heard of some unemployed CPL holders in SG (some from MFA, some from Aussie). I would also believe that the numbers are quite substantial.
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Hi Lofty! I was in your shoes in 2008. Nowadays, it is better to go with one of the cadet programs available.
I have friends with the initial batches of STAA that got Aussie licences plying their trade overseas in Indonesia for example. They are all trying to manoeuvre to coming back to Singapore.
Getting a Sg CPL is a good start.
Just apply to get into a cadet program first. If you do get offered a place, then start to beg, borrow or steal to find the funds to get it done. Where there's a will, there's a way. I know others that were in your position. Yet they managed to overcome the obstacle.
I have friends with the initial batches of STAA that got Aussie licences plying their trade overseas in Indonesia for example. They are all trying to manoeuvre to coming back to Singapore.
Getting a Sg CPL is a good start.
Just apply to get into a cadet program first. If you do get offered a place, then start to beg, borrow or steal to find the funds to get it done. Where there's a will, there's a way. I know others that were in your position. Yet they managed to overcome the obstacle.
Last edited by Sonic69; 13th Aug 2013 at 13:58.
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its been quiet.... even with many people throwing money at staa, cae, sfc on private pathway
does anyone can provide me with further insight or you know or heard on some of my doubts
how are our local 9v carriers receptive to self sponsored private cp, more specifically are those people who recruit for these airlines even open to take the private cpl from staa sfc cae. hows is the scene these 2 years?
how about a private cpl after 35yrs old like from 35-38yrs old... near to impossible to have a chance to land a job in 9v? how many cases do u known such miracle happened recently? i only heard one or two
does anyone can provide me with further insight or you know or heard on some of my doubts
how are our local 9v carriers receptive to self sponsored private cp, more specifically are those people who recruit for these airlines even open to take the private cpl from staa sfc cae. hows is the scene these 2 years?
how about a private cpl after 35yrs old like from 35-38yrs old... near to impossible to have a chance to land a job in 9v? how many cases do u known such miracle happened recently? i only heard one or two
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"ts been quiet.... even with many people throwing money at staa, cae, sfc on private pathway
does anyone can provide me with further insight or you know or heard on some of my doubts
how are our local 9v carriers receptive to self sponsored private cp, more specifically are those people who recruit for these airlines even open to take the private cpl from staa sfc cae. hows is the scene these 2 years?
how about a private cpl after 35yrs old like from 35-38yrs old... near to impossible to have a chance to land a job in 9v? how many cases do u known such miracle happened recently? i only heard one or two"
Wow a revival of the thread! hehe
Glad to see people still researching this topic. The answer to your first question is yes local carriers are hiring from STAA and SFC self-sponsored. To my knowledge most people have found jobs, its just a matter of time. However, these jobs were attained through individual effort. Don't expect the school to do anything for you. They do next to nothing to help you. Getting the CPL is relatively easy. You may not think so as you are going through the training, but once you start looking for your first flying job you'll think the training part was a piece of cake.
We are well positioned in the growing aviation market of Greater Asia. There will continue to be expansion of airlines in this region for the next few years barring any unforeseen catastrophic setbacks.
To answer your 2nd question, I was 36 yo when I made the decision to pursue my dream. I guess maybe its me that you heard about
. I'm on the wrong side of 40 now and am flying B737 on 9V. Previously 2 years experience on A320. You can guess the airline. Too easy! So, if 1 person can do it, why not others?
I have another friend that is same age as me now training on A320 on 9V also. He started after I did due to family commitments, but finally took the plunge head on. So that's 2 examples already. I'm sure there must be others but I don't know them personally.
When I made the decision I knew that I had a window of opportunity because of the expansion plans of airlines in this region. No licence, no job. Simple as that. That window of opportunity is still open from my point of view. Plus, today there are many more opportunities than when I started. You could try for Jetstar Cadet, Tiger Cadet, MPL licence, STAA CPL, SFC Private Cadets, Qatar Cadet etc. During my time, there was only SFC offering CAAS CPL. It was make or break.
I guess I'm trying to encourage people to go for the dream if that's what they want. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Of course there is risk involved and not many people will actually go for it after considering their circumstances. But for those of us that get the payoff after the blood sweat and tears, its a mucho sweet ride piloting a metal cylinder through the air at FL400.
Live the Dream and Happy Landings!
does anyone can provide me with further insight or you know or heard on some of my doubts
how are our local 9v carriers receptive to self sponsored private cp, more specifically are those people who recruit for these airlines even open to take the private cpl from staa sfc cae. hows is the scene these 2 years?
how about a private cpl after 35yrs old like from 35-38yrs old... near to impossible to have a chance to land a job in 9v? how many cases do u known such miracle happened recently? i only heard one or two"
Wow a revival of the thread! hehe
Glad to see people still researching this topic. The answer to your first question is yes local carriers are hiring from STAA and SFC self-sponsored. To my knowledge most people have found jobs, its just a matter of time. However, these jobs were attained through individual effort. Don't expect the school to do anything for you. They do next to nothing to help you. Getting the CPL is relatively easy. You may not think so as you are going through the training, but once you start looking for your first flying job you'll think the training part was a piece of cake.
We are well positioned in the growing aviation market of Greater Asia. There will continue to be expansion of airlines in this region for the next few years barring any unforeseen catastrophic setbacks.
To answer your 2nd question, I was 36 yo when I made the decision to pursue my dream. I guess maybe its me that you heard about
. I'm on the wrong side of 40 now and am flying B737 on 9V. Previously 2 years experience on A320. You can guess the airline. Too easy! So, if 1 person can do it, why not others?I have another friend that is same age as me now training on A320 on 9V also. He started after I did due to family commitments, but finally took the plunge head on. So that's 2 examples already. I'm sure there must be others but I don't know them personally.
When I made the decision I knew that I had a window of opportunity because of the expansion plans of airlines in this region. No licence, no job. Simple as that. That window of opportunity is still open from my point of view. Plus, today there are many more opportunities than when I started. You could try for Jetstar Cadet, Tiger Cadet, MPL licence, STAA CPL, SFC Private Cadets, Qatar Cadet etc. During my time, there was only SFC offering CAAS CPL. It was make or break.
I guess I'm trying to encourage people to go for the dream if that's what they want. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Of course there is risk involved and not many people will actually go for it after considering their circumstances. But for those of us that get the payoff after the blood sweat and tears, its a mucho sweet ride piloting a metal cylinder through the air at FL400.
Live the Dream and Happy Landings!
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I do also personally strongly suggest trying to get into any of the cadet programmes that Sonic mentioned in his post before considering doing the CPL as a private candidate. At least you would be more or less have a job secured at the end of the day, as it seems that airlines are trying to meet their hiring requirements through the cadet schemes first and foremost. Opportunities are out there now!
And agreed, the efforts are extremely rewarding. My maximum is only FL398 though, but still as sweet.
All the best.
And agreed, the efforts are extremely rewarding. My maximum is only FL398 though, but still as sweet.
All the best.
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America
Good to know I'm not the only dreamer here.
I'm 31 and crossing over SIA's threshold soon and seeing that they haven't opened the cadetship I've been doing a lot of research.
Going to the states is my current plan while I continue to gather more moolahs.
I've zones in on three schools in the states - CAEOAA in Mesa, Arizona; USAA in Denton, Texas; and Aviator College in Fort Pierce, Florida.
The minimum costs for these places are between USD 50K to USD 70K, much cheaper than going to Australia or signing up with STAA and the Jetstar/Tiger Programs which charge around USD 150K.
And for these schools, the prices I've listed are for CPL MECIR CFIII. Therefore, it opens up more option to do other flying if you are not able to get airline jobs immediately, though of course, getting other gigs is hard enough too.
With the Ch 4 mini-docu 'Worst Place to Be a Pilot', even Susiair in Indonesia is getting hundreds of applications per day.
I'm 31 and crossing over SIA's threshold soon and seeing that they haven't opened the cadetship I've been doing a lot of research.
Going to the states is my current plan while I continue to gather more moolahs.
I've zones in on three schools in the states - CAEOAA in Mesa, Arizona; USAA in Denton, Texas; and Aviator College in Fort Pierce, Florida.
The minimum costs for these places are between USD 50K to USD 70K, much cheaper than going to Australia or signing up with STAA and the Jetstar/Tiger Programs which charge around USD 150K.
And for these schools, the prices I've listed are for CPL MECIR CFIII. Therefore, it opens up more option to do other flying if you are not able to get airline jobs immediately, though of course, getting other gigs is hard enough too.
With the Ch 4 mini-docu 'Worst Place to Be a Pilot', even Susiair in Indonesia is getting hundreds of applications per day.
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Other more knowledgeable people may want to chime in here but if your aim is to fly for a Singapore registered airline then an FAA licence is not very well received unless you were ex-airforce and only needed a CPL to tick that box along with your thousands of hours flying experience.
You have to be prepared to work as an instructor for about 1500 hours before you can convert to a Sg CAAS CPL. Regulations may have changed but when I looked into which licence to get, this was the requirement.
The people that I know who are still struggling to find jobs in this region are FAA CPL holders with low hours. The extra USD100k that you spend for a Sg CPL you will make it back between 12-18 months as an FO in a Singaporean carrier.
I know funding flight training is a daunting task but be careful you might end up paying more opportunity cost in the long run.
You have to be prepared to work as an instructor for about 1500 hours before you can convert to a Sg CAAS CPL. Regulations may have changed but when I looked into which licence to get, this was the requirement.
The people that I know who are still struggling to find jobs in this region are FAA CPL holders with low hours. The extra USD100k that you spend for a Sg CPL you will make it back between 12-18 months as an FO in a Singaporean carrier.
I know funding flight training is a daunting task but be careful you might end up paying more opportunity cost in the long run.
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Sonic69, I really like your frank and sincere posts. Saw many in the past. Actually all left is for me to sign on the line to start my private with sfcpl. At such age, I either do or break. I'm happy for you that you are at FL40 with a 9V. You just added more motivation to push myself despite all dissuasion from all sides. All is not lost yet to hear more examples of ppl who can somehow land a 9v job at the wrong end of 30, through hard work and perseverance. However due to some financing issue I decided to postpone awhile more. Still I believe if there is a will there is a way... There is still last breath to take the plunge at 35/36. Always have a failure mitigation plan ready too.
Keep the dream flying
Keep the dream flying
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If you feel strongly about working in Singapore, try hard to get into one of the cadet schemes, self-sponsored or otherwise, with local carriers.
When a carrier has a cadet scheme going, it is likely the company would have established a pipeline of FOs to meet their growth in the coming years. Such a carrier would only take on non-cadet CPLs, esp. low hours, if faced with unforeseen pilot shortage.
Embark on the traditional CPL-IR route only if you have exhausted all cadetship options. Even then, be aware that to be employed means jumping through the time-consuming and sometimes unsurmountable hurdles that are employment visas, immigration regulations and licence conversion.
When a carrier has a cadet scheme going, it is likely the company would have established a pipeline of FOs to meet their growth in the coming years. Such a carrier would only take on non-cadet CPLs, esp. low hours, if faced with unforeseen pilot shortage.
Embark on the traditional CPL-IR route only if you have exhausted all cadetship options. Even then, be aware that to be employed means jumping through the time-consuming and sometimes unsurmountable hurdles that are employment visas, immigration regulations and licence conversion.
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Conversion to a CAAS licence equivalent still requires you to have a letter from a local operator stating intention of employment. This in itself presents a great challenge because if you're not type rated on the type of aircraft with hours that the airline you are applying for is operating, from what I can see it is unlikely that you'd be considered.
Adding on to what the others have mentioned earlier, the airlines also have the opportunity to monitor and mentor their cadets' progress throughout the course. Whilst the number of opportunities have increased, I believe on the other hand it would be more difficult for self-sponsored foreign CPL holder to gain employment locally.
Try and get into the cadet schemes; should that option fail then try to obtain a CAAS licence as a private candidate as this would present the next best opportunity to gain local employment.
My 2 cents worth.
Adding on to what the others have mentioned earlier, the airlines also have the opportunity to monitor and mentor their cadets' progress throughout the course. Whilst the number of opportunities have increased, I believe on the other hand it would be more difficult for self-sponsored foreign CPL holder to gain employment locally.
Try and get into the cadet schemes; should that option fail then try to obtain a CAAS licence as a private candidate as this would present the next best opportunity to gain local employment.
My 2 cents worth.
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STAA now has a flight sch in Texas as well..
Not sure whether they've gotten their CAAS approval yet, but the latest self sponsored private singaporean cadets will be training there after ground school
Not sure whether they've gotten their CAAS approval yet, but the latest self sponsored private singaporean cadets will be training there after ground school