R/T status in KL FIR

[veloo maniam]

Descent Requests

Hi Aviators..many thanks for your heart warming replies. Yes we pick it from here and will keep educating ourselves for self improvement. The very idea of posting this thread was to relieve Ctlers from murmuring under their breadth as there are a lot of younger guys who are ready for action minus the finer points of real time atc. I will pass this on to the young ones just to show "the pilots mind".
Merdeka..talking about trips to Narita etc...is something way out as airlines are very strict and concious about offering free seats these days. Ofcourse this is a win win for both parties. It is hoped that familiarisation flights, as we call it, to international destinations will become a REALITY. once again guys tq for your inputs.Happy flying.

[flightdeckXXX]

The bottom line is, air traffic is getting more and more. Therefore, Atc have to handle this big number in the air. But with modern technology and better radar system, it helps a lot for air management and sequencing. It's how much the Atc willing to put their creativity in making the flow better.

Making the plane to fly at 180-190 kts. or even slower at 30 nm from touchdown is too draggy. If that was the case in KUL TMA, I wish it should have been revised to 220/210 knots. Basically, 737-400 Vref on max landing weight is around 10 knots lower than B777. Where else 744 probably have 20 knots higher than 737's. Most boeing planes do fly Vref plus 80 for flaps up speed. And most of the time planes landing at well below max landing weight (unless on emergency). I can quote B777-200 Vref 30, is 138 knots (max landing wt) and plus 80, would mean 218knots is flap up speed.

And as for KUL TMA, I can't remember if there is/are many prohibited zone in it. Unlike other airport like JFK, Washington DC or even Seoul/Beijing. These airports have many prohibited area where it restrict the airspace utilisation. Modern day radar have a lot more info on the screen (unless KUL still using the 3rd. world facillities) ie. distance to touchdown, Ground speed, etc..

Recently I flew into SIN. Radar told me to cross a waypoint near NYLON (can't remember the name) at certain time. By doing so, I could adjust my speed well ahead from top of descend and avoid dragging the plane with flaps. It was a smooth sailing. KUL could do the same. Give the time to cross a fix which probably 10 nm on final (to be done by control sector) and let the pilot adjust the speed. Most modern day planes have FMC. So, setting up your descend speed correctly will give you the exact time over the fix.

[Virtual Reality]

Good idea flightdeckXXX, if only airspace over South China Sea is controlled by Lumpur, as of today it is not and most of our descent point is well before VKN. Once passed VKN, there's not much we could do and more often that not we are still at or above FL330 and worst still if we have to reduce speed at that level ......

[veloo maniam]

ATCC Visit

Hello FlightdeckXXX...come and visit us.See for yourself whether we are using 3rd World equipment. Give me a call 0192316519.Bring along some friends and will have a friendly tour of the centre. Maybe u can gave us some constructive ideas when u see us on duty. We might be able to incorporate some ideas into the system.
Yes SIN ATC hands over at VPK most of the time and with traffic crisscrossing VPK most of the time, descend clrearances and speed restrictions are often given well past your TOD but I always wondered how the Air Asia pilots are able to do without any complaints. I would love to go on a familiarisation flight with them one of these days. Maybe these budget airlines follow different procedures

[Brianigham]

Veloo, good point about AA not having a problem with profile. That is a good sign of "the pilot flying the plane" and not the "plane flying the pilot". Well done AA.

MR boeing didn't leave out the speedbrakes when he built them planes.They come in quite handy, and I have used them in ALL airspaces.

[flightdeckXXX]

speed brake

Boeing made the speed brake for many reasons. Of course you can use it as you like. But if you do descent with speed brake during all you approaches, than there must be something wrong with your profile. Boeing mentioned in the FCTM to keep the aircraft clean as long as possible for better fuel consumption. They also equipped your plane with modern on board comfuser, ie the FMC for your profile management. One major reason for the speed brake available is for certification requirement. Jet aircrafts fly at a very high altitude. When a decompression occurred, one have to make an emergency descend to 10000ft within certain time frame. Can you imagine if your 330 or 777 don’t have speed brake to do so? Haven’t seen F50 / F27 with speed brake, maybe some new prop aircraft have it. They don’t fly very high and therefore there is no requirement for speed brake if one has decomp/pressurization problem.
Secondly, is speed range. A jet plane have a vast speed range, ie. from Vref to 330/340 knots (VMo/MMo). To bring down the speed from 320 knots to 210 knots or lower in level flight would required some 10 miles. That’s why they call it speed brake. F50/27 has smaller speed range. The need of speed brake is almost non existence.
Thirdly, it’s also known as spoiler where it is used mainly during landing and reject take off. In certification, spoiler is required to meet the reject performance. No reverser/s is OK, not part of certification. That’s’ why you pull your spoiler/speed brake during RTO and/or landing.
Speed brake becomes a common tool these days for jet aircraft. With ever increasing traffics and height/speed restriction imposed by STAR or ATC, it’s become my “good friend” , not all the time bro. Unless you are the type that love to touch it even with slightly higher on profile or speed. Not for me, that’s for sure. I used it if it’s become very necessary.

[flightdeckXXX]

Thousand apology Veloo. I didn't mean any harm in here. I was hoping that whatever equipments you have there must be of the latest or new one. However, I'm a guy frequently fly to the big US cities .ie, JFK, O'Hare, DFW, Atlanta, LAX, SFO, etc...Their traffic condition is a nightmare. Of course they have more than one runway. Never the less, they can coup up with the demand day by day. Most delay is caused by security problem and weather (storm, heavy snow, etc..) Improvement can be done, ie. reduce separation, multiple approach sectors/controllers, sim-ops approach/departure, to name a few. I understand you have a single runway at this moment. May be after the work completed, the situation will be better.

Ok, what about asking flight to descend to an intermediate level before VKN from SIN ATC, ie. FL 290/280. and then KUL sector take over at/after VKN onwards. It's no point hanging at FL 370/390/400 while passing VKN, I'm sure that position is pass over your descend point for that kind of level. It's better to start your descend slightly earlier to intermediate level than spending extra minutes in high level cruise and charge the plane like hell after passing VKN. Worst if there will be speed control after that. Passing VKN at FL290/280 within KUL sector will be just nice for the next descend clearance. And keep the departing plane to cross VKN at FL300 or above so as not to disrupts other traffic that inbound for KUL/SZB.

I gave my 2 sen worth of suggestion/s in here. It's just a suggestion, if it doesn't suit your needs, than try something else. As for Air Asia never have any complaint, I could not comment on that. Perhaps, they don't fly to Primary airport beside than KUL. It's always secondary airport that they like to go. They haven't seen major airport like the above I have mentioned or even some major airports in the rest of the world. So, they can't make much comparison until they have experienced the difference between one major airport with another.

Cheers.

[veloo maniam]

Descent B4 VPK or VKN

As most aviators utilising the KUL & SIN a/space are aware that SIN controls all traffic over the South China Sea i.e after VPK. With ever increasing tfc crisscrossing VPK, most of the levels are occupied. Given now with the RVSM a/space, levels are being occupied every now and then. It has always been SIN ATC's style to release traffic inbound to KUL at the TOC (transfer of communication point) i.e VPK or Taxul. Some proactive ATClers will ask SIN to release tfc earlier. However by the time the inbound acft calls KUL ATC, it may too late to issue a descent clearance because someone else has now come closer to you. Hence not enough radar separation to descend. Tfc from BKK to SIN and vice versa thru VPK has also increased. Just imagine not only we have to descend u guys but also issue speed restrictions eg 250kts. There are limitations and these limitations are increasing by the day. With new radar controllers coming into the scene, skills are lacking as they do not have enough experience to push acft down earlier particularly the A330's.U wud have noticed that we have opened a new sector between VPK and VKB. the freq is 134.25. This has relieved us of coordination but not the traffic.

[flightdeckXXX]

Kul Fir

Veloo. I'm aware of the constraint with regards to the airspace over the South China Sea and the East Coast sector. If the problem is not the equipments and not the human factor, then it is the poilitical will. After 50 years of Merdeka and Malaysia not even control the airspace within 50 nm from its coastline (over South China Sea), then susah lah.

Almost 25 years ago, Hong Kong do control most part of South China Sea, north of what SIN control. Today we see SANYA control some, and Ho Chi Minh control some. As the aviation progress, we also move forward. Sitting down and telling the whole world of our constraint doesn't help.

P.S. noted with thanks. hope I can visit you and one of my ex-school mate at the center there one day.

[veloo maniam]

ATCC Visit

Welcome mate.Bring the whole family.

[ACMS]

Hi again Veloo:
Another question if I may:-- Why do KL Gnd insist on us staying on their frequency when at the holding point and number 4 for departure? It makes it difficult to follow what's happening on the runway for things like: wind checks, windshear reports, sequencing, and just generally what's going on.
Is there a reason we can't listen to the Twr frequency as we get within 100 m of the holding point?
Our situational awareness suffers a bit.
This happens in HK as well.
cheers.

[Chrome]

To my mind it's simply to relieve the Tower controllers of the extra work they would have to spend listening and replying to an aircraft calling at a holding point when the controllers should really be concentrating on the guys on approach, takeoff and landing.

What is the rush? I don't really rush myself calling Tower when I am handed over when I know there's an aircraft in front of me are just about to be given their takeoff clearance or an aircraft on approach is just about to be given their landing clearance. Why call Tower when you know he'll only give you a 'hold position' order? He knows you're there and the last hold position order remains.

2 words. VHF2.

[veloo maniam]

Aviation English

what is your opinion about the way Aviation English Tests are being conducted?
I have been hearing a lot of negative comments about the way it is being conducted(both from Ctlers and Pilots). To me the methodology used can be improved. What say u aviators?

[Fair.Pilot]

I think the English test has its noble intention, but to go thru the test like a secondary school exam...... hmm
I would prefer a "face to face" encounter, which I think is more fair.
Moreover I promised myself 20 yrs ago that ATPL was the LAST EXAM ever I wanna take!!! (sudah tua mahu ada peperiksaan lagi ka?)

[ACMS]

Chrome: please re-read my post,I said

Is there a reason we can't listen to the Twr frequency as we get within 100 m of the holding point?

I didn't say to "call" the Twr early.
A lot of places ( LHR being one ) tell you to "monitor" the tower when quite a way back down the taxyway.
Although I do have 3 VHF comms i shoudn't have to monitor them all at once.
It's all "big picture" stuff and quite frankly good airmanship.

[GTR-34]

ACMS..is right. There are a lot of places where the ground controller asks to monitor tower freq. Its not an instruction to call tower. We'll just have to listen out and tower ctl will call when he/she is ready. Usually happens in UK/US.

About the "english" test, i guess it depends on whether its the english or american version. Heard it can be quite tough, most guys got level 4 or 5. Well better start taking some english tuition!

[Chrome]

I understand what you mean ACMS but if monitoring is all you want, use VHF2 and monitor. There are 2 of you, you can monitor Tower while your co-pilot can still be on VHF1 for the handover command. If (as you put it) Ground 'insists' on you staying on their frequency, there's nothing to stop you from listening on the other VHF really. This is Kuala Lumpur. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

I didn't like it that in my test, aircraft callsigns were not transmitted accordingly as separate digits. 614 should be pronounced SIX WUN FOWER and not SIX FORTEEN. 640 is SIX FOWER ZERO and not SIX FORTY.

[flightdeckXXX]

Descend B4 VPK/VKN/Taxul

Dear Veloo,

First of all I would like to wish you a very Happy Diwali (a belated one).

Last month while I was on dead-heading back to KUL, I woke up from my sleep as the plane start to descend. I realised that the plane was still away from VKN/VPK when it left its cruising level and than flew a level flight till passing Kuantan/Pekan.

Subsequently, it started to descend again towards KLIA on the STAR. This is first time I didn't feel any buffeting due to speedbrake deployment during the second phase of descend. The approach and the landing was smooth sailing.

I didn't asked the pilot what happened after we landed as I was in a hurry to be at home. I only assumed that the flight did a two stage descend profile, one before VKN/VPK and then a second descend while in KUL TMA. It works very well. Before this particular flight, it's always with buffeting sensation while descending into KLIA. So, my question is: is this a new way of controlling the traffic from the east sector?

[veloo maniam]

CDA

Hello FlightdeckXXX. Thnxs for your greetings. Mine is 25th Dec but the belated is still accepted warmly. a few of us are striving to introduce CDA i.e continuos descent approach as far as possible. Of course flow control still gives priority to traffic from the east as our bulk is from the eastern sectors. We are encouraging fellow controllers to bring in u guys with the least buffeting on approach into KLIA. We are not there yet but we are on our way.expect to see some changes over the next few months as we are even working out to reduce the 5nm on approach to 3nm. Mind set has to change from top to bottom and we are working on it.

[lesenterbang]

Subsequently, it started to descend again towards KLIA on the STAR. This is first time I didn't feel any buffeting due to speedbrake deployment during the second phase of descend. The approach and the landing was smooth sailing.

The first descend was probably by SIN Ctrl, as it happens over the sea. KUL radar normally took over just before crossing the coastline.

Nothing strange about not using speedbrake on descend into KUL, if you don't depends too much on the FMC and knows how to read the ATC's mind before you get trapped. In short, knowing when to slow down and when to plan for direct 10 miles final. Personally, I rarely ever need to use the speedbrake and most of the time, throttle at or near idle and no level section.