SIA Changes the Contract - Again!
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SIA Changes the Contract - Again!
Life seems to have a depressingly uniform predictability for the pilots of Singapore Airlines. I¡¯ve just had a call from an ex-colleague who recently interviewed for the airline (despite my considered advice not to) and who, amongst other things, mentioned the speech made last week by the Chairman of the SIA Board, the gist of which was that in future, pilots could expect annual bonus payments to be capped at the equivalent of two months salary, whatever the magnitude of profits made by the airline.
The current projected fiscal 2005 record SIA profit figure indicates, according to Alpa-s, that the next annual bonus payable within the terms of the present Collective Agreement should be in the 5-6 months salary range, so it rather looks like SIA is about to unilaterally change the pilot contract - yet again!
In light of back pay still unreturned to the pilots from the (convenient) SARS panic of two years ago, when SIA chopped salaries at record speed (after strong-arming a particularly complient Alpa-s Chairman), the proposed bonus cuts merely add insult to injury against a backdrop of very high pilot productivity and relatively low fixed salaries.
Interesting to note that the common threads of ex-pat feeling amongst all the SIA pilots my colleague managed to speak with, were ones of outrage and powerlessness that past and presently proposed Collective Agreement changes should have been forced on them under circumstances engineered by the Company that produced an inability to give notice to quit by virtue of bonds, bank guarantees and monies owed to them that would be forfeited following such action. In a nutshell, ¡°Once you¡¯re dumb enough to sign, they have you by the short and curlies and do just what the hell they like¡±, as one commentator put it. All said that they would not be renewing their contracts and could not wait to leave the airline.
The tale has a happy ending, however. My colleague has decided he wouldn¡¯t touch SIA with a barge pole! Other aspirants take note.
The current projected fiscal 2005 record SIA profit figure indicates, according to Alpa-s, that the next annual bonus payable within the terms of the present Collective Agreement should be in the 5-6 months salary range, so it rather looks like SIA is about to unilaterally change the pilot contract - yet again!
In light of back pay still unreturned to the pilots from the (convenient) SARS panic of two years ago, when SIA chopped salaries at record speed (after strong-arming a particularly complient Alpa-s Chairman), the proposed bonus cuts merely add insult to injury against a backdrop of very high pilot productivity and relatively low fixed salaries.
Interesting to note that the common threads of ex-pat feeling amongst all the SIA pilots my colleague managed to speak with, were ones of outrage and powerlessness that past and presently proposed Collective Agreement changes should have been forced on them under circumstances engineered by the Company that produced an inability to give notice to quit by virtue of bonds, bank guarantees and monies owed to them that would be forfeited following such action. In a nutshell, ¡°Once you¡¯re dumb enough to sign, they have you by the short and curlies and do just what the hell they like¡±, as one commentator put it. All said that they would not be renewing their contracts and could not wait to leave the airline.
The tale has a happy ending, however. My colleague has decided he wouldn¡¯t touch SIA with a barge pole! Other aspirants take note.
Excellent post - the feeling of helplessness is profound. Seven First Officers threw the towel in last week - a fair number off to EK it is believed.
To think that this outfit has cut basic salaries to such an extent and now want to limit a bonus "that is based on the new salary" to just two months is laughable - no matter how much profit they make. As one Capt put it in a meeting - "I am embarrassed to show my expat friends what I earn".
To think that this outfit has cut basic salaries to such an extent and now want to limit a bonus "that is based on the new salary" to just two months is laughable - no matter how much profit they make. As one Capt put it in a meeting - "I am embarrassed to show my expat friends what I earn".
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Does this apply to SIA Cargo as well as mainline?
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A whole lot has been said about SQ so I'm not about to add anything.
Just to put it in a different light to those out there who, in spite of so much already raised bout SQ, remember this, SQ management are mostly placed there by political backers in Singapore. They take their cue from these guys. Which is why they've literally gotten away with murder in the past. Just what are these guys capable of? Consider this, at the end of 2003 when the issue of SIA vs ALPA-S was a real hot potato, Lee Kuan Yew said - and yes, this was published in the Straits Times - that "I rule by fear. I prefer to be feared than to be liked, and i will still win an election." He sets the tone for his subordinates to follow, and believe me this kind of thinking trickles down system wide - SIA certainly included. Those who, in spite of what you already know about SQ, are still contemplating going there.... well alas, you know what you're going in for and if you get burned and screwed, i for one wouldn't want to hear any of your bitching and wingeing on PPRUNE. You can't say you weren't told.
Just to put it in a different light to those out there who, in spite of so much already raised bout SQ, remember this, SQ management are mostly placed there by political backers in Singapore. They take their cue from these guys. Which is why they've literally gotten away with murder in the past. Just what are these guys capable of? Consider this, at the end of 2003 when the issue of SIA vs ALPA-S was a real hot potato, Lee Kuan Yew said - and yes, this was published in the Straits Times - that "I rule by fear. I prefer to be feared than to be liked, and i will still win an election." He sets the tone for his subordinates to follow, and believe me this kind of thinking trickles down system wide - SIA certainly included. Those who, in spite of what you already know about SQ, are still contemplating going there.... well alas, you know what you're going in for and if you get burned and screwed, i for one wouldn't want to hear any of your bitching and wingeing on PPRUNE. You can't say you weren't told.
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Thanks Phil. Just as I thought.
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I see old Phil is still busily talking up SIA Cargo and its contract. So its "basically the same" as SIA mainline. Do you get paid for paxing, do your kids get schooling up to age 21, how about your meal allowances are they the same. what about the ID 90s- do you get 4 of those a year like the mainline guys. On this particular thread I believe that the profit sharing you get is at the discretion of SIA and what they feel you deserve like the LON/PER/SYD basings. You know what that will probably mean.
Sorry to have a go mate but the contract you are on isnt "basically the same". You deserve the right to try and make it so but it has a long way to go yet. Good luck
Sorry to have a go mate but the contract you are on isnt "basically the same". You deserve the right to try and make it so but it has a long way to go yet. Good luck
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chambudzi
Yes indeed old Phil does rather talk up SQ Cargo doesn't he!
Even if the deal was as he says same thing as Mainline which it most certainly is not then that in itself is hardly a ringing endorsement of the package is it!!??
Still if it makes him happy to think he is on the same deal as mainline then let him carry on being delusional.
Yes indeed old Phil does rather talk up SQ Cargo doesn't he!
Even if the deal was as he says same thing as Mainline which it most certainly is not then that in itself is hardly a ringing endorsement of the package is it!!??
Still if it makes him happy to think he is on the same deal as mainline then let him carry on being delusional.
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Is anyone happy in SIA?
Seems to be a shortage of any postive news about working in SIA. With so many pilots working there, surely someone must be content?
Otherwise why did so many join in the first place?
Would appreciate some constructive answers!
Thanks
MM
Otherwise why did so many join in the first place?
Would appreciate some constructive answers!
Thanks
MM
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Chambudzi and et al. Please remember this is about perspectives. I can guarantee you my previous employer makes SIA look great. No vacation, no per diem, crap equipment, pressure to break FTLs all the time...the list goes on.
1) Correct no pay for positioning. However, that will most likely get resolved in the near term.
2) No ID 90s but I suggest you look at the CA. At mainline, you don't get those until 10 years of service.
3) Profit sharing is the same as SIA. The only question mark is the issue of the group profits or cargo profits. The current contract is for the SIA group.
4) Schooling is only to 18, but starts at 4. I have 3 children, but then again, I have been preparing for education for years.
5) Meal allowance v. Per Diem. We get S$8/hr. In some cases that's more than you guys and in some cases less. All in all, on a monthly basis I believe it's about the same.
6) Contract completion bonus? What does mainline get?
Is SIA Cgo perfect? No. However, my contract has changed 4 times for the better. All of this might just be a mute point. Seems as though the company can't attract the necessary Cargo pilots nor can it attract the necessary 777 pilots. So, ALPAS was approached a few weeks ago about folding the cargo pilots into mainline.
As I said in my opening line, it's a matter of perspectives. I have a question for all the nay sayers. What would have you me do, stay at my prior employer in europe, where your job was always in question or come here and have some peace of mind, and acutally make more on a monthly basis? Again, perhaps, if you are so unhappy, you should just tender your resignations and go to work for my prior employer. I'd be happy to give you all the contact details....
1) Correct no pay for positioning. However, that will most likely get resolved in the near term.
2) No ID 90s but I suggest you look at the CA. At mainline, you don't get those until 10 years of service.
3) Profit sharing is the same as SIA. The only question mark is the issue of the group profits or cargo profits. The current contract is for the SIA group.
4) Schooling is only to 18, but starts at 4. I have 3 children, but then again, I have been preparing for education for years.
5) Meal allowance v. Per Diem. We get S$8/hr. In some cases that's more than you guys and in some cases less. All in all, on a monthly basis I believe it's about the same.
6) Contract completion bonus? What does mainline get?
Is SIA Cgo perfect? No. However, my contract has changed 4 times for the better. All of this might just be a mute point. Seems as though the company can't attract the necessary Cargo pilots nor can it attract the necessary 777 pilots. So, ALPAS was approached a few weeks ago about folding the cargo pilots into mainline.
As I said in my opening line, it's a matter of perspectives. I have a question for all the nay sayers. What would have you me do, stay at my prior employer in europe, where your job was always in question or come here and have some peace of mind, and acutally make more on a monthly basis? Again, perhaps, if you are so unhappy, you should just tender your resignations and go to work for my prior employer. I'd be happy to give you all the contact details....
Last edited by Phil Squares; 16th Mar 2005 at 05:42.
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Jeez mochiman and Phil Squares some guys seem to think that what has been written in the thousands of past posts is somehow not true.
I really can't be bothered re-writing everything I've banged on about over recent years (which has all been true), so can I suggest that you read up on the situation Here?
Phil
1) "Correct no pay for positioning" - If you're happy with this, more fool you!
2) "No ID 90s but I suggest you look at the CA. At mainline, you don't get those until 10 years of service" - Wrong, at Mainline you get 4 ID 90's per annum from day one.
3) "Profit sharing is the same as SIA. The only question mark is the issue of the group profits or cargo profits. The current contract is for the SIA group" - Watch this space, Phil, you'll see the latter profits being used to calculate bonus payments very shortly.
4) "Schooling is only to 18, to me that's no big deal. I have 3 children and have been preparing...." - Mainline schooling is from age 5 to age 20.
If SIA can get more blokes like you, Phil, they've cracked it. As it is, you're a bit of a rarity so they're going to have to work pretty hard in the near future, getting replacements for the guys who are quietly not renewing contracts and just slipping away from this vale of tears.
I really can't be bothered re-writing everything I've banged on about over recent years (which has all been true), so can I suggest that you read up on the situation Here?
Phil
1) "Correct no pay for positioning" - If you're happy with this, more fool you!
2) "No ID 90s but I suggest you look at the CA. At mainline, you don't get those until 10 years of service" - Wrong, at Mainline you get 4 ID 90's per annum from day one.
3) "Profit sharing is the same as SIA. The only question mark is the issue of the group profits or cargo profits. The current contract is for the SIA group" - Watch this space, Phil, you'll see the latter profits being used to calculate bonus payments very shortly.
4) "Schooling is only to 18, to me that's no big deal. I have 3 children and have been preparing...." - Mainline schooling is from age 5 to age 20.
If SIA can get more blokes like you, Phil, they've cracked it. As it is, you're a bit of a rarity so they're going to have to work pretty hard in the near future, getting replacements for the guys who are quietly not renewing contracts and just slipping away from this vale of tears.
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mochiman
Take heed of what HIgh Cirrus says re SQ. Just because Phil's previous employer was even worse than SQ does not make SQ Cargo a good deal in my book. If more like Phil turn up then SQ's problems are solved.
SQ's basis salary has never been that good but with regular large Bonus's through the years and a good exchange rate for S$ against most currencies it was a reasonably good deal but that has all disappeared with the new management style and collapse of the Sing Dollar.
Come and join if you like , just don't say you were not warned.
Yes mainline get 4 ID90's pa straight away and not after 10 years as Phil would like to think.
Take heed of what HIgh Cirrus says re SQ. Just because Phil's previous employer was even worse than SQ does not make SQ Cargo a good deal in my book. If more like Phil turn up then SQ's problems are solved.
SQ's basis salary has never been that good but with regular large Bonus's through the years and a good exchange rate for S$ against most currencies it was a reasonably good deal but that has all disappeared with the new management style and collapse of the Sing Dollar.
Come and join if you like , just don't say you were not warned.
Yes mainline get 4 ID90's pa straight away and not after 10 years as Phil would like to think.
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HC
I understand what you are saying and I certainly do not doubt what you or others have mentioned about SIA. Just trying to see what else might be in the woodwork - that is all.
I appreciate your comments, I've had a look thru this forum all the way back to day one and certainly there is a lot to digest. Bad is always relative to one's situation.
Cheers
MM
I understand what you are saying and I certainly do not doubt what you or others have mentioned about SIA. Just trying to see what else might be in the woodwork - that is all.
I appreciate your comments, I've had a look thru this forum all the way back to day one and certainly there is a lot to digest. Bad is always relative to one's situation.
Cheers
MM
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As a complete outsider, I hesitate to add my two cents' worth but I would imagine there must be considerable job satisfaction in working as a pilot with an outfit that is highly professional, operates state-of-the-art equipment, andmakes money.
Rockhound
Rockhound
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Rockhound
Whilst your post is obviously an adroit provocation, it’s worth responding in order to amplify the situation at Singapore Airlines, not in the form of a further rant, but configured in terms of that well known Management dictum, Hertzberg’s Two-Factor Theory of motivation and job satisfaction.
Hertzberg and associates asked their respondents what made them feel both particularly good and particularly bad about their jobs (the two factors). It transpired that what made them feel good about their jobs concerned responsibility and accomplishment and a feeling of growth in job competence. These satisfiers or motivators were clearly related to self actualization needs.
What made the respondents feel bad about their jobs were surrounding or environmental factors, such as inadequate salary, poor working conditions, insufficient job security, poor or over supervision, lack of power in benefit negotiation, exploitation etc. These dissatisfiers relate to Maslow’s (hierarchy of needs) lower level needs and Hertzberg suggests that a preponderance of them would lead to varying levels of dissatisfaction.
Improvements in these would reduce or remove dissatisfaction but no amount of improvement would elicit positive motivation and a feeling of well being. This would only come from accomplishing a meaningful and challenging task.
I would suggest therefore that the job satisfaction which you refer to in your post is something of a continuum in which the individual will find his or her own level of self actualization and as such, the baubles you mention such as “highly professional, operates state-of-the-art equipment, and makes money” may or may not assist the individual in attaining this actualization.
Whereas the current and rising level of SIA dissatisfiers provided either by commission or omission would tend to suggest that any form of job satisfaction, baubles notwithstanding, would be made impossible within SIA, for any but the most self deluding of pilots.
I’d be interested to know your thoughts on the matter.
Whilst your post is obviously an adroit provocation, it’s worth responding in order to amplify the situation at Singapore Airlines, not in the form of a further rant, but configured in terms of that well known Management dictum, Hertzberg’s Two-Factor Theory of motivation and job satisfaction.
Hertzberg and associates asked their respondents what made them feel both particularly good and particularly bad about their jobs (the two factors). It transpired that what made them feel good about their jobs concerned responsibility and accomplishment and a feeling of growth in job competence. These satisfiers or motivators were clearly related to self actualization needs.
What made the respondents feel bad about their jobs were surrounding or environmental factors, such as inadequate salary, poor working conditions, insufficient job security, poor or over supervision, lack of power in benefit negotiation, exploitation etc. These dissatisfiers relate to Maslow’s (hierarchy of needs) lower level needs and Hertzberg suggests that a preponderance of them would lead to varying levels of dissatisfaction.
Improvements in these would reduce or remove dissatisfaction but no amount of improvement would elicit positive motivation and a feeling of well being. This would only come from accomplishing a meaningful and challenging task.
I would suggest therefore that the job satisfaction which you refer to in your post is something of a continuum in which the individual will find his or her own level of self actualization and as such, the baubles you mention such as “highly professional, operates state-of-the-art equipment, and makes money” may or may not assist the individual in attaining this actualization.
Whereas the current and rising level of SIA dissatisfiers provided either by commission or omission would tend to suggest that any form of job satisfaction, baubles notwithstanding, would be made impossible within SIA, for any but the most self deluding of pilots.
I’d be interested to know your thoughts on the matter.
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Rockhound
Question How do you think SQ can operate state of the art equipment and make money??
Answer By paying ALL employees far less than rivals such as BA QF AF LH etc etc from the Cleaner to Pilots whilst getting the sames fares as the opposition. Really rather easy I would have thought.
Question How do you think SQ can operate state of the art equipment and make money??
Answer By paying ALL employees far less than rivals such as BA QF AF LH etc etc from the Cleaner to Pilots whilst getting the sames fares as the opposition. Really rather easy I would have thought.
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there is always talk about how bad SIA pays compared to some of the major carriers.
Could or would someone give a break down of the salaries for a local and expat terms.
The reason for me asking this is that I have a friend that is currently employed in SIA as a FO.
He was telling me in his first year as an FO, his salary was nearly 90K Sing dollars + plus bonus.
Tax rates are quite low in singapore.
Now for me living in Australia, this is indeed a very good salary.
Im not sure how much a Qantas FO will make in his first year, but when you add in the tax rates you will pay in Australia, I doubt it will be what my friend is getting.
He says, so far he is very happy with the airline, they are strict but also fair.
He was also telling me that they have signed a new pay agreement, where their basic salary is going to go up and so will the productivity allowance.
These are some of the positives that should be looked at.
Could or would someone give a break down of the salaries for a local and expat terms.
The reason for me asking this is that I have a friend that is currently employed in SIA as a FO.
He was telling me in his first year as an FO, his salary was nearly 90K Sing dollars + plus bonus.
Tax rates are quite low in singapore.
Now for me living in Australia, this is indeed a very good salary.
Im not sure how much a Qantas FO will make in his first year, but when you add in the tax rates you will pay in Australia, I doubt it will be what my friend is getting.
He says, so far he is very happy with the airline, they are strict but also fair.
He was also telling me that they have signed a new pay agreement, where their basic salary is going to go up and so will the productivity allowance.
These are some of the positives that should be looked at.
Jabba - your friend must have started on the Frieghter - the terms that were intially offered where so poor they got less than 10% of the numbers they wanted - so for frieghter ops things could only have got better, and as some one mentioned, the conditions for the third time have improved for the better.
Would you believe that this months pay slip still has a "wage cut" entry - that's the 16% cut that was shoved down the crews throats during SARS - yes bloody SARS - how long ago was that!! So a basic salary of a 777 Capt for the month of March is S$ 7800 - that dear fellows is just under US$5000. Embarrassing is it not? And yes, when you work you can bring that number upto around K13, but, when you don't work, i.e do a course, go on leave or are sick for a few weeks, that's the sum you get. Pittance working for a "major airline"
Jabba - there are very very few positives. "Leave if you don't like" some say. Well, if a few could they would, but they can't beacuse of bonds and so called contracts.
Would you believe that this months pay slip still has a "wage cut" entry - that's the 16% cut that was shoved down the crews throats during SARS - yes bloody SARS - how long ago was that!! So a basic salary of a 777 Capt for the month of March is S$ 7800 - that dear fellows is just under US$5000. Embarrassing is it not? And yes, when you work you can bring that number upto around K13, but, when you don't work, i.e do a course, go on leave or are sick for a few weeks, that's the sum you get. Pittance working for a "major airline"
Jabba - there are very very few positives. "Leave if you don't like" some say. Well, if a few could they would, but they can't beacuse of bonds and so called contracts.