SIA Changes the Contract - Again!
Omark44 - went onto the MoM website but could not find the relevant page that gives any information on the stauts of "Pilots" - but if it is true, and a pilot is now a "Skilled Labourer" just think of the implications - first to mind is the scolding we got from the CP 777 about reading our rosters correctly and not being late or miss reading the 4th amendment to a flight!! After all we are all "professionals" in our profession so this sort of thing really does reflect badly on all of us! Ha. !
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Blame it on the stock market. Profits need to increase each quarter, the "nrpms" even though they are "nrpms" need to drive this. They don't have an aviation passion, it's just business - all for the share holder which includes them. It's the way all listed companies are going, employees are all pi$$ed off while execs cash in on their stock. It's just the way it is now and will always be, just enjoy the flying and life.
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Now if it is so bad how can you explain that I have several friends, with more than 12 years of employement with SQ, that only work eleven days a month ( Yes 11 days) on the 345 and make in excess of 25000 Sin dollars a month net!!!!!
This must be the best flying job in the world, since they spent half of their flying time in the bunk!!!
I wish I could have a job like that.
This must be the best flying job in the world, since they spent half of their flying time in the bunk!!!
I wish I could have a job like that.
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John Barnes
You pose the question if it is so bad etc etc re your friends on the A345.
You have also answered the question namely cos they are all over 12 years in the company and got regular 6% annual Service increments and also the extra for long duty hours.
We were not talking about how many days they work cos they are a very small minority but about SQ changing the contract.
Why do you think Armchair General B LG has changed the top scales to the new CA? He knows that expats are not going to leave in any large numbers as other Airlines like EK are tightening the screws so there is nowhere else to go in reality. He knows that, as he also knows that SQ is still an attractive job for some still. Look at RBA, if people are joining SQ from RBA it just shows how bad it is there, not how good SQ is.
You pose the question if it is so bad etc etc re your friends on the A345.
You have also answered the question namely cos they are all over 12 years in the company and got regular 6% annual Service increments and also the extra for long duty hours.
We were not talking about how many days they work cos they are a very small minority but about SQ changing the contract.
Why do you think Armchair General B LG has changed the top scales to the new CA? He knows that expats are not going to leave in any large numbers as other Airlines like EK are tightening the screws so there is nowhere else to go in reality. He knows that, as he also knows that SQ is still an attractive job for some still. Look at RBA, if people are joining SQ from RBA it just shows how bad it is there, not how good SQ is.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
John Barnes, you need to ask the schedulers at SQ that question.
Pilots don't (generally) formulate their own schedules - that is left to the rostering and Fleet Planning department in each airline.
SQ will undoubtely still attract those pilots with the mindset of NEEDING to fly the biggest/newest/shiniest, rather than the more matured mentality of weighing up the financial & lifestyle issues. And, as In the slot points out, there are always going to be some pilots who are willing, or forced into taking work with companies that others avoid.
But as the pilot shortage increases, the lower-paying companies have already started hiking their salaries, to try to retain/attract pilots.
The nrpm's have painted themselves into what is going to become an upward wage spiral corner, because of their (to quote B.Mac) "shabby treatment of pilots".
Does SQ (or any other airline) really believe that other airlines are NOT going to dangle bigger carrots to attract pilots, when the alternative is to park aircraft and cancel flights, because they are UNABLE to crew them?
Pilots who feel they "belong" to a company don't (in the main) worry about checking the "jobs available" columns.
Those who believe they are unwanted or "abused" will sell their experience to the highest bidder!
And, as 411A notes, this time is "not all that far in the future." - and from comments here, it would seem that an elite few within SIA are expediting the process.
Pilots don't (generally) formulate their own schedules - that is left to the rostering and Fleet Planning department in each airline.
SQ will undoubtely still attract those pilots with the mindset of NEEDING to fly the biggest/newest/shiniest, rather than the more matured mentality of weighing up the financial & lifestyle issues. And, as In the slot points out, there are always going to be some pilots who are willing, or forced into taking work with companies that others avoid.
But as the pilot shortage increases, the lower-paying companies have already started hiking their salaries, to try to retain/attract pilots.
The nrpm's have painted themselves into what is going to become an upward wage spiral corner, because of their (to quote B.Mac) "shabby treatment of pilots".
Does SQ (or any other airline) really believe that other airlines are NOT going to dangle bigger carrots to attract pilots, when the alternative is to park aircraft and cancel flights, because they are UNABLE to crew them?
Pilots who feel they "belong" to a company don't (in the main) worry about checking the "jobs available" columns.
Those who believe they are unwanted or "abused" will sell their experience to the highest bidder!
And, as 411A notes, this time is "not all that far in the future." - and from comments here, it would seem that an elite few within SIA are expediting the process.
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I see your point and realise that SQ is defenitely not the best job, but again these more senior guys ,and only on the 345, can not complain and have it made as long as that fleet will excist.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Yes, you're correct, JB, and I'm certain those guys are also hoping that they can retain what they have achieved, and undoubtedly consider themselves fortunate to be where they are - thanks to SQ.
Wouldn't YOU, if you were in their position?!
By all means envy them, but don't begrudge fellow pilots something they have gained FAIRLY, within the system.
It was obviously a case of "being in the right spot, at the right time" - either by good management or by good luck
Wouldn't YOU, if you were in their position?!
By all means envy them, but don't begrudge fellow pilots something they have gained FAIRLY, within the system.
It was obviously a case of "being in the right spot, at the right time" - either by good management or by good luck
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Hey JB,
Get over it! I figure those A345 drivers deserve generous compensation for the excruciating boredom of flying between just three airports: SIN-LAX...LAX-SIN...SIN-EWR...EWR-SIN...SIN-EWR...EWR-SIN...SIN-LAX...LAX-SIN. With hardly ever a polar routing to break the monotony. Borrrrrrrrrrrring!!!
Happy landings!
Rockhound
Get over it! I figure those A345 drivers deserve generous compensation for the excruciating boredom of flying between just three airports: SIN-LAX...LAX-SIN...SIN-EWR...EWR-SIN...SIN-EWR...EWR-SIN...SIN-LAX...LAX-SIN. With hardly ever a polar routing to break the monotony. Borrrrrrrrrrrring!!!
Happy landings!
Rockhound
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Omark44
Re Your post of 28 March
“Officially downgrading the job of pilot to one of skilled labour and delisting it in Singapore as a profession”.
Maybe Singapore Airlines recruiters need to get up to speed here. As I understand it, 98% of their cadet pilot entrants are degree holders. Surely something of a qualification overkill to meet a “skilled labour” requirement?
Similarly, has anyone informed Breitling (who not so long ago produced a limited edition watch for the professionals of Alpa-S) that their latest ad, featuring the words of John Travolta (5000hrs TT, 400hrs p.a. in his own B707/G2 aircraft), “Profession: Pilot, Career: Actor” now carries zero relevance and that it should read “Skilled Labour Category: Pilot”, when read in Singapore.
I assume that very shortly we will cease logging into Pprune when in Singapore and be required to access the Skilled Labour Rumour Network?
What a bl**dy ridiculous place!
Re Your post of 28 March
“Officially downgrading the job of pilot to one of skilled labour and delisting it in Singapore as a profession”.
Maybe Singapore Airlines recruiters need to get up to speed here. As I understand it, 98% of their cadet pilot entrants are degree holders. Surely something of a qualification overkill to meet a “skilled labour” requirement?
Similarly, has anyone informed Breitling (who not so long ago produced a limited edition watch for the professionals of Alpa-S) that their latest ad, featuring the words of John Travolta (5000hrs TT, 400hrs p.a. in his own B707/G2 aircraft), “Profession: Pilot, Career: Actor” now carries zero relevance and that it should read “Skilled Labour Category: Pilot”, when read in Singapore.
I assume that very shortly we will cease logging into Pprune when in Singapore and be required to access the Skilled Labour Rumour Network?
What a bl**dy ridiculous place!
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Friend of mine went for the standard 'interview' when he applied for permission to marry a local girl.
During the interview the lady most concerned about equality of qualifications, on glancing through his papers, looked up in shock and said, "but you don't have a degree!"
Friend duly pointed out that he did have an ATPL, issued in the UK and that, in the UK, this wasn't considered to be at all bad, as professional qualifications go,
Lady then said, "Oh well, here in Singapore we don't regard being a pilot as a profession, it is considered skilled labour"
For totally unconnected reasons the wedding never took place!
During the interview the lady most concerned about equality of qualifications, on glancing through his papers, looked up in shock and said, "but you don't have a degree!"
Friend duly pointed out that he did have an ATPL, issued in the UK and that, in the UK, this wasn't considered to be at all bad, as professional qualifications go,
Lady then said, "Oh well, here in Singapore we don't regard being a pilot as a profession, it is considered skilled labour"
For totally unconnected reasons the wedding never took place!
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Rockhound you got that right. It is sooooo boring to get a good paycheck, fly 4 sectors with no positioning, deadheading or other disruptions, and then have the rest of the month off. ( To be realy honest fly 1 sector and deputy dog for the other 3) In other words 20 days to do my own things. Things that I realy like. And having done this job for the last 40 years I don't see any difference in the ILS into Dacca or the one into New York for that matter. But I take it that you are a real enthousiatic driver with a long career ahead, building up some sectors. Then I can understand your boredom, but Rockhound I have been there, got the T-Shirt, and must be a real bore ( At least that's what my wife claims) because I love this lifestyle. You can't call it a job!!!!
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Farside,
Long time no hear. Glad to see you're still around, after 40 years yet. Sounds to me like you're one of those guys who makes John B turn green with envy. All I can drive is a car but, sure, even I know there's no real difference between flying into SFO and FCO. But what about all the fun things you can do during layovers at different places in different countries? I reckon that's one of the perks for you SQ longhaulers. Trouble is, you guys get too jaded (perhaps understandably) while some of us enthusiasts, even after hundreds of hours of bush flying as pax in helicopters, Twin Otters and the like (I'm a geologist, in the sunset days of my career), as well as a very modest number (compared to yours) of scheduled flights, still get a thrill out of simply "getting there", not to speak of visiting other countries and experiencing other cultures. Just remember that, as you're shifting uneasily in your seat trying to avoid a sore you-know-what while grinding it out for 18 hours over the Pacific, one or two of the SLF in the back are having the time of their lives.
Bit off-topic, I know - sorry. Nice to hear from you.
Rockhound
Long time no hear. Glad to see you're still around, after 40 years yet. Sounds to me like you're one of those guys who makes John B turn green with envy. All I can drive is a car but, sure, even I know there's no real difference between flying into SFO and FCO. But what about all the fun things you can do during layovers at different places in different countries? I reckon that's one of the perks for you SQ longhaulers. Trouble is, you guys get too jaded (perhaps understandably) while some of us enthusiasts, even after hundreds of hours of bush flying as pax in helicopters, Twin Otters and the like (I'm a geologist, in the sunset days of my career), as well as a very modest number (compared to yours) of scheduled flights, still get a thrill out of simply "getting there", not to speak of visiting other countries and experiencing other cultures. Just remember that, as you're shifting uneasily in your seat trying to avoid a sore you-know-what while grinding it out for 18 hours over the Pacific, one or two of the SLF in the back are having the time of their lives.
Bit off-topic, I know - sorry. Nice to hear from you.
Rockhound
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Hello Rockhound
Good to see you too. Yes we are all getting a little jaded after a long flying carreer. The parties enroute have faded as well since the age of the real party going cabin crew always remains in the late twenty early thirty figures where after they leave for greener pastures.
We however hang in for the ride but get at a point where we are defenitely too old to show up in the disco. ( I think they call it clubbing these days)
I have also seen too many AIDS cases in the job ( Airline Induced Divorce Syndrom) and at the end of the day you want to come back to a happy home. The only way to do that is being a bore enroute. Yes I too miss the dark and gloomy nights with one ADF, a navigator, engineer, and grumpy captain.
After the wild years in the Airforce I worked for a charter outfit which was more or less the extension of the Airforce and man it was wild. As I remember it ,it was one big party. The flying has changed enormously, not always for the better, but I must say that there are new chalanges (hope spelled that correct) with this ULR flying that are interesting and nice to be part of. And if I could do it all over again I wouldn't change a thing. But I must admit that I envy your Bushflying experiences, because that must at the end of the day be the real macCoy!!! Bye for now Rockhound, hope to see one of these days.
Good to see you too. Yes we are all getting a little jaded after a long flying carreer. The parties enroute have faded as well since the age of the real party going cabin crew always remains in the late twenty early thirty figures where after they leave for greener pastures.
We however hang in for the ride but get at a point where we are defenitely too old to show up in the disco. ( I think they call it clubbing these days)
I have also seen too many AIDS cases in the job ( Airline Induced Divorce Syndrom) and at the end of the day you want to come back to a happy home. The only way to do that is being a bore enroute. Yes I too miss the dark and gloomy nights with one ADF, a navigator, engineer, and grumpy captain.
After the wild years in the Airforce I worked for a charter outfit which was more or less the extension of the Airforce and man it was wild. As I remember it ,it was one big party. The flying has changed enormously, not always for the better, but I must say that there are new chalanges (hope spelled that correct) with this ULR flying that are interesting and nice to be part of. And if I could do it all over again I wouldn't change a thing. But I must admit that I envy your Bushflying experiences, because that must at the end of the day be the real macCoy!!! Bye for now Rockhound, hope to see one of these days.
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Quiet Phil
Our newboy on the block Phil Squares has gone very quiet on this thread lately. No more talking up the contract and recruiting for SQ Cargo.
Rumour has it that he had a little brush with HR in Cargo and reality has set in. No more changes to the contract for the better and definitely no ID 90s or Zonal pricing tickets.
Cant say you werent warned but commiserations all the same.
Rumour has it that he had a little brush with HR in Cargo and reality has set in. No more changes to the contract for the better and definitely no ID 90s or Zonal pricing tickets.
Cant say you werent warned but commiserations all the same.
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Phil Squares
Sorry that the reality of employment with Singapore Airlines seems to have hit you (squarely?) between the eyes. However, we’ve all at some stage or other had the same wake-up dose of cold water.
You might also heed the words of mk1eyeball on another thread, to the effect that “saving senior pilot salary scales above $ 16.5K/mth was a disgrace and in complete contradiction of efficiency savings. (An) absolute betrayal to the rest of you all and a disgusting achievement by your so called representative body (Alpa-S).DISGRACEFUL.”
Not only is the SQ set-up there to deny you the smallest joy of existence whilst earning a living in this vale of tears but your designated representatives will happily shaft you at the drop of a hat.
Hope you came type rated and have not entered into five years of bonded servitude! The line to leave starts halfway round the next bock but one!
Sorry that the reality of employment with Singapore Airlines seems to have hit you (squarely?) between the eyes. However, we’ve all at some stage or other had the same wake-up dose of cold water.
You might also heed the words of mk1eyeball on another thread, to the effect that “saving senior pilot salary scales above $ 16.5K/mth was a disgrace and in complete contradiction of efficiency savings. (An) absolute betrayal to the rest of you all and a disgusting achievement by your so called representative body (Alpa-S).DISGRACEFUL.”
Not only is the SQ set-up there to deny you the smallest joy of existence whilst earning a living in this vale of tears but your designated representatives will happily shaft you at the drop of a hat.
Hope you came type rated and have not entered into five years of bonded servitude! The line to leave starts halfway round the next bock but one!
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High Cirrus
Phil Squares is ex Air Atlanta which explains why up to now he has been waxing lyrical about SQ Cargo. For the same reason that RBA Captains are joining SQ it merely shows how bad those Airlines are to work for and not how good SQ is.
Now that he knows that Mailine get 4 ID90's pa whereas SQ Cargo get none plus other differences in contract to Mainline too numerous to mention has caused him perhaps to reflect!! Just because the Basic in SQ Cargo is close to Mainline does not make the total package the same as Phil would like to believe. Even Mainline, unless on many service increments is no longer much cop any more unless from a country where the Sing$$$ still buys something worthwhile.
Phil Squares is ex Air Atlanta which explains why up to now he has been waxing lyrical about SQ Cargo. For the same reason that RBA Captains are joining SQ it merely shows how bad those Airlines are to work for and not how good SQ is.
Now that he knows that Mailine get 4 ID90's pa whereas SQ Cargo get none plus other differences in contract to Mainline too numerous to mention has caused him perhaps to reflect!! Just because the Basic in SQ Cargo is close to Mainline does not make the total package the same as Phil would like to believe. Even Mainline, unless on many service increments is no longer much cop any more unless from a country where the Sing$$$ still buys something worthwhile.
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Sorry to burst your bubble, but I have been on annual leave (cancelled from last year). Haven't even researched the issue of ID90s. However, my reference was from a current SQ Capt who looked at the T&C as he joined last year. I could be wrong, and if I am, I will set the record straight.
And yes, I did work at Air Atlanta. But the question is when? So, in trying to keep this board confidential and anonymous why don't we stop the "detective" work. Remember, it works both ways.
However, I suggest before you go trying to identify anyone you might atleast afford them a "heads up".
Anyhow, I am still on annual leave, out of Singapore. So, I suggest you recheck your "sources"!
And yes, I did work at Air Atlanta. But the question is when? So, in trying to keep this board confidential and anonymous why don't we stop the "detective" work. Remember, it works both ways.
However, I suggest before you go trying to identify anyone you might atleast afford them a "heads up".
Anyhow, I am still on annual leave, out of Singapore. So, I suggest you recheck your "sources"!
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Phil Sorry but not trying to do any detective work but merely pointing out where one has been employed in the past affects how you find SQ's T &C's.
Any job is better than no job. Enjoy your leave ( Cancelled from last year !!) Great company this SQ isn't it? Then again you told us you got no leave in your last Airline so Yes by comparison SQ Cargo is great. It all depends whether you compare like with like and for some I can well see that SQ cargo is still an attractive option. Just illustrates how T &C's are slipping throughout the Airline Industry which is depressing.
Any job is better than no job. Enjoy your leave ( Cancelled from last year !!) Great company this SQ isn't it? Then again you told us you got no leave in your last Airline so Yes by comparison SQ Cargo is great. It all depends whether you compare like with like and for some I can well see that SQ cargo is still an attractive option. Just illustrates how T &C's are slipping throughout the Airline Industry which is depressing.
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Millerscourt,
I do agree. However, I am sure people in the 4th floor read what is posted here. It's a small company and it's easy to figure out just who is who. I guess, I don't think people need any help trying to put 2 and 2 together. That's all.
Cheers
I do agree. However, I am sure people in the 4th floor read what is posted here. It's a small company and it's easy to figure out just who is who. I guess, I don't think people need any help trying to put 2 and 2 together. That's all.
Cheers