Local Pilots (HK)
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Local Pilots (HK)
there are very few HK local pilots compared to native speaking English Pilots in CX.
Just wondering if there are any Asian-origin pilots out there working in other non asian based airlines?
i know there is a Chinese origin test Pilot working in the RAF testing torandos. but any lights shining from elsewhere?
hope this is not off topic.
hekokimushi
Just wondering if there are any Asian-origin pilots out there working in other non asian based airlines?
i know there is a Chinese origin test Pilot working in the RAF testing torandos. but any lights shining from elsewhere?
hope this is not off topic.
hekokimushi
Last edited by hekokimushi; 22nd Aug 2005 at 09:21.
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There are a few Asian origin pilots based in the US flying for US carriers but most if not all are "Americans", i.e. US passport holders.
My theory is that aviation is not something that Asian communities worldwide find to be a viable career. Until recently, there are usually one major airline per country in Asia and if you don't make it then you are out of option. And majority of those do hire mostly ex- air force personnels since private training is cost prohibitive for most.
To dedicate your time and study for something that's very limited in opportunities is not something Asians like to do.
Much more options in the business, engineering or medical route. They are also viewed as a more respectable and face lifting career.
Language is another barrier that keeps a lot of Asians from pursuing aviation career overseas (not in there homeland). Like a lot of controllers in Asia, many can speak technical English providing that they have learned and rote memorized or something that they have heard and used before. Try requesting something that's slightly unusal and that radio will go silent for a noticable period of time. Similarly with native Asian pilots.
Unfortunately, the first road block for them would be the technical interviews. Hard to wing it with just sheer hard work and knowledge alone.
With volatility in the aviation industry worldwide, post 9/11, I don't see any changes in Asian's attitude towards career in aviation/ pilot as something viable and mainstream in the near future.
My theory is that aviation is not something that Asian communities worldwide find to be a viable career. Until recently, there are usually one major airline per country in Asia and if you don't make it then you are out of option. And majority of those do hire mostly ex- air force personnels since private training is cost prohibitive for most.
To dedicate your time and study for something that's very limited in opportunities is not something Asians like to do.
Much more options in the business, engineering or medical route. They are also viewed as a more respectable and face lifting career.
Language is another barrier that keeps a lot of Asians from pursuing aviation career overseas (not in there homeland). Like a lot of controllers in Asia, many can speak technical English providing that they have learned and rote memorized or something that they have heard and used before. Try requesting something that's slightly unusal and that radio will go silent for a noticable period of time. Similarly with native Asian pilots.
Unfortunately, the first road block for them would be the technical interviews. Hard to wing it with just sheer hard work and knowledge alone.
With volatility in the aviation industry worldwide, post 9/11, I don't see any changes in Asian's attitude towards career in aviation/ pilot as something viable and mainstream in the near future.
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I agree with your post regarding non-fluent english speaking asians. but there are a lot out here whom lived their life in a western culture. English as our first language. And introduced to the world of fun... the private flying... and wanna go commerical. but... as u mention... the training cost is just like extordinary high... for anybody anywhere in the world (specially in the UK). hence it comes to the cadet programmes. i am a PPL... self funded to this affordable level, 3 years of savings with a full time and part time job.
then... thought i have all the key factors to re-apply to the cadet programme with the airline everyone wants to work for. but i found myself another failure letter, after proving i can handle the flying bit, the organisation bit. but not the other bits that they exercise during the selection programme... i am an engineer... so i can analyse things... maybe something that they cannot measure during those exercises within 2-3 hours.
Lets not say if foreign language matters. i would think an British person... using mbar, zone penatration and circuits all life, flying in the US... using 2992, flight following and regular pattern would find themselve a bit unused to such "foreign" language. technical interview would not be a big problem i think.
I am not sure which Diseyland you come from...
but the mickey mice here in HK, we all look at planes very close anyway to the airport... and you would probably be surprised how many of us are dreaming of flying. The ability to fly i find it is not harder than riding a bike. I understanding there are a lot to study for the ATPL but all text book stuff really, with some practices. anyone with a technical degree has already proven they can tackle textbooks and put it into experiements. I am one of the lucky ones to taste flying and got myself a piece of expensive paper work that allow me to enjoy the priviledge to fly privately hoping to proceed further. a lot of them are only interested but can't get any chances. But saying that... i am also one of those unlucky ones... gained some priviledges... but cannot proceed further. for the locals here... there have absolutely no chances. not enough money, no military flying units. only 2 airlines. i think to succeed in hk one needs lots of connections and lots and lots and lots of luck.
then... thought i have all the key factors to re-apply to the cadet programme with the airline everyone wants to work for. but i found myself another failure letter, after proving i can handle the flying bit, the organisation bit. but not the other bits that they exercise during the selection programme... i am an engineer... so i can analyse things... maybe something that they cannot measure during those exercises within 2-3 hours.
Lets not say if foreign language matters. i would think an British person... using mbar, zone penatration and circuits all life, flying in the US... using 2992, flight following and regular pattern would find themselve a bit unused to such "foreign" language. technical interview would not be a big problem i think.
I am not sure which Diseyland you come from...
but the mickey mice here in HK, we all look at planes very close anyway to the airport... and you would probably be surprised how many of us are dreaming of flying. The ability to fly i find it is not harder than riding a bike. I understanding there are a lot to study for the ATPL but all text book stuff really, with some practices. anyone with a technical degree has already proven they can tackle textbooks and put it into experiements. I am one of the lucky ones to taste flying and got myself a piece of expensive paper work that allow me to enjoy the priviledge to fly privately hoping to proceed further. a lot of them are only interested but can't get any chances. But saying that... i am also one of those unlucky ones... gained some priviledges... but cannot proceed further. for the locals here... there have absolutely no chances. not enough money, no military flying units. only 2 airlines. i think to succeed in hk one needs lots of connections and lots and lots and lots of luck.
Last edited by hekokimushi; 4th Sep 2005 at 01:42.
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Honestly! there are not many like you. People of HK want easy,quick money. A pilot's life is not what they want, away from home on x'mas,chinese new yr ,no weekends etc etc.
While money is not an issue many of HK's kids go to top MBA and Finance colleges, thats more money spent than on flt training, but the returns are also better and weekends off and a Porche with the bonus. How many pilots drive Porches?
Its not just HK; Singapore has same problem the new generation has just not seen any hard work the two city states have made life so easy for the kids they have forgotten to work for their passions.
While money is not an issue many of HK's kids go to top MBA and Finance colleges, thats more money spent than on flt training, but the returns are also better and weekends off and a Porche with the bonus. How many pilots drive Porches?
Its not just HK; Singapore has same problem the new generation has just not seen any hard work the two city states have made life so easy for the kids they have forgotten to work for their passions.
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I think another problem is that Asian parents are very strict with their children's studies, most Asian parents would want their children to go to university and study something like medical, law or something similar.
Although there are Aviation degrees, it still isn't a requirement for joining the airlines.
I am Chinese myself but born in Australia, I had to convince my parents very hard for them to let me fly when I told them I wasn't going to university.
Although there are Aviation degrees, it still isn't a requirement for joining the airlines.
I am Chinese myself but born in Australia, I had to convince my parents very hard for them to let me fly when I told them I wasn't going to university.
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Left wing, can MBA and finanical colleges tuition be compared to flying?? i am not sure how much things are for a good finanical instituition. 
but... for an apbinto ATPL... when graduate, u will have 250 hours or something like that... in the UK GBP60,000. in Oz, equivalent money would be about HKD1000,000. whilst studying as an oversea student in say LSE, GBP10, 980 per year for a 3 years BA or BSc. and for a master degree. another year at GBP11,196
GBP20,000 of difference.
Those aviation degree are not really teaching one how to fly. i really wonder... flying really starts off with paying up front... get sponsored, or be very very very lucky, get to know the flying community. i totally agree with your statement Condensation. Requirements for pilots are all hours. hours = money, ratings = money, experience = money, ATPL = lots of money, after spending lots of money, get to fly a regional and get paid peanuts is quite depressing. and the majority of pilots are UK, US, Oz, NZers very lucky people. as all asian airlines needs them so they can get a job in a regional airline and then come work in
Asia, i wish i could be one of them types that can start their aviation career, have the guts to pay up front the training cost in debt, study his/her ass off and hope for a job when licenced. I am very pessimistic about my flying career at the moment.
How many pilots drive Porsche... em... friends told me even a few CX SOs drive porsche. Cars are really a personal preference. do you think so? there is no point of driving a Porsche or Ferrari in hk anyway. u can use the 1st gear to drive at all roads. grin... just wasting stupid money to impress the one night stands. put once u got a family... sure one would want one with just more than 2 seat
but... for an apbinto ATPL... when graduate, u will have 250 hours or something like that... in the UK GBP60,000. in Oz, equivalent money would be about HKD1000,000. whilst studying as an oversea student in say LSE, GBP10, 980 per year for a 3 years BA or BSc. and for a master degree. another year at GBP11,196
GBP20,000 of difference.
Those aviation degree are not really teaching one how to fly. i really wonder... flying really starts off with paying up front... get sponsored, or be very very very lucky, get to know the flying community. i totally agree with your statement Condensation. Requirements for pilots are all hours. hours = money, ratings = money, experience = money, ATPL = lots of money, after spending lots of money, get to fly a regional and get paid peanuts is quite depressing. and the majority of pilots are UK, US, Oz, NZers very lucky people. as all asian airlines needs them so they can get a job in a regional airline and then come work in
Asia, i wish i could be one of them types that can start their aviation career, have the guts to pay up front the training cost in debt, study his/her ass off and hope for a job when licenced. I am very pessimistic about my flying career at the moment.
How many pilots drive Porsche... em... friends told me even a few CX SOs drive porsche. Cars are really a personal preference. do you think so? there is no point of driving a Porsche or Ferrari in hk anyway. u can use the 1st gear to drive at all roads. grin... just wasting stupid money to impress the one night stands. put once u got a family... sure one would want one with just more than 2 seat
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And that's why the CPP is so attractive. Without such program, you are looking at at least $60,000 CND plus at least a few years to get an ALTP. I can't possbility afford that and have moral objection to ask my parents to fund me. Of course I will most likely get disowned by my dad and written out of his will first.
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hekokimushi - As I'm sure you are aware, people who reach the CX standard at interview are told they have passed and then have to sit on their hands for several months waiting for a course as there are still many successful candidates ahead of them, they don't 'bin' people just because they have more successes than CPP places to offer. If you have been rejected twice then there is probably something else that didn't reach their standard, have you asked this of yourself rather than suggesting that the CX selection process is at fault because it didn't pick you?
A few remarks you have made in your posts, ("I find flying no harder than riding a 'bike" and "after proving I can handle the flying bit, the organisation bit. but not the other bits that they exercise during the selection programme... i am an engineer... so i can analyse things... maybe something that they cannot measure during those exercises within 2-3 hours"), are just two and lead me to think they may have decided that you would not make a good crew member, CX are looking at all recruits as potential captains, not just people who can pass the cadet flying programme and in your case I suspect 'attitude' and a degree of over confidence may have played a part in your lack of success with CX.
Don't give up on a flying career though, there are at least two, possibly three other airlines in the Far East that offer cadet programmes, have you tried for these? Do a lot of soul searching, be very critical of yourself, put yourself in the place of the interviewing officer, see what you don't like about yourself and change it!!! It is you, after all, that is going to have to change, the airlines are not going to change to suit you, remember 'If the mountain won't come down to Mohammad then Mohammad must go up to the mountain'!
Keep trying and the best of luck.
A few remarks you have made in your posts, ("I find flying no harder than riding a 'bike" and "after proving I can handle the flying bit, the organisation bit. but not the other bits that they exercise during the selection programme... i am an engineer... so i can analyse things... maybe something that they cannot measure during those exercises within 2-3 hours"), are just two and lead me to think they may have decided that you would not make a good crew member, CX are looking at all recruits as potential captains, not just people who can pass the cadet flying programme and in your case I suspect 'attitude' and a degree of over confidence may have played a part in your lack of success with CX.
Don't give up on a flying career though, there are at least two, possibly three other airlines in the Far East that offer cadet programmes, have you tried for these? Do a lot of soul searching, be very critical of yourself, put yourself in the place of the interviewing officer, see what you don't like about yourself and change it!!! It is you, after all, that is going to have to change, the airlines are not going to change to suit you, remember 'If the mountain won't come down to Mohammad then Mohammad must go up to the mountain'!
Keep trying and the best of luck.
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BlueEagle. haha... i suggested that the selection at fault is purely based on disapointment coz i put so much hope to it. thanks for pointing out thou. still reviewing my performance after 3 weeks of the actual interview big day. it leads me back to a post in this HK wannabe forum... CX interview tone... i am not sure if i did sound over-confidence... maybe i did... i answered a few things a bit quicker than i normally would. not sure about the others tests thou. but there have been a statements flowing about the CX CPP... it stated that a cadet applicants are restricted to apply a max of 2 times.
not eligable to apply foreign countries airlines... not their citizen.
a flying career is definately not easy to pursue. as it is not the cheapest thing on earth. but... it does seem somewhat narrow at the moment. but this will not end my pursuit. will wait for my next opportunity.
meanwhile... must get back to the boring life of 9 to 5.
haha... i suggested that the selection at fault is purely based on disapointment coz i put so much hope to it. thanks for pointing out thou. still reviewing my performance after 3 weeks of the actual interview big day. it leads me back to a post in this HK wannabe forum... CX interview tone... i am not sure if i did sound over-confidence... maybe i did... i answered a few things a bit quicker than i normally would. not sure about the others tests thou. but there have been a statements flowing about the CX CPP... it stated that a cadet applicants are restricted to apply a max of 2 times. not eligable to apply foreign countries airlines... not their citizen.
a flying career is definately not easy to pursue. as it is not the cheapest thing on earth. but... it does seem somewhat narrow at the moment. but this will not end my pursuit. will wait for my next opportunity.
meanwhile... must get back to the boring life of 9 to 5.
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"not eligible to apply foreign countries airlines... not their citizen"
Not so sure about this Heko. Suggest you write to both SIA and MAS and find out, just start by making a normal application for their CPP. I know SIA did stop taking certain nationalities from abroad for their CPP, mainly Australia and the UK, but I don't think you have to be a citizen of Singapore, not sure about Malaysia. You could also try CAL and EVA, disregard what you may have read on other forums, (Far East), you are still looking for the first rung of the ladder that will get you into a major company. Best of Luck with your efforts.
Not so sure about this Heko. Suggest you write to both SIA and MAS and find out, just start by making a normal application for their CPP. I know SIA did stop taking certain nationalities from abroad for their CPP, mainly Australia and the UK, but I don't think you have to be a citizen of Singapore, not sure about Malaysia. You could also try CAL and EVA, disregard what you may have read on other forums, (Far East), you are still looking for the first rung of the ladder that will get you into a major company. Best of Luck with your efforts.
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Regarding my own opinionated thought on the CPP.
Here is my guess of what they are focused on two aspects.
Your actual performance in their tests. In the second round, this includes the Numeracy Tests and the JKI quiz. For most people, I think they pass the above two with out too many issues coz they aren't too hard to prepare for.
They also take a comprehensive look at your "Judugement/Decision" making abilities under a number a circumstances. In a group / In the interview / Under pressure in the flight planning exercise.
What I mean from "Judgement / Decision Making" is the whole process... From taking in the bits of information , processing it , the giving the response.
I would guess that 70% of candidates fail the second aspect of it.
Here is my guess of what they are focused on two aspects.
Your actual performance in their tests. In the second round, this includes the Numeracy Tests and the JKI quiz. For most people, I think they pass the above two with out too many issues coz they aren't too hard to prepare for.
They also take a comprehensive look at your "Judugement/Decision" making abilities under a number a circumstances. In a group / In the interview / Under pressure in the flight planning exercise.
What I mean from "Judgement / Decision Making" is the whole process... From taking in the bits of information , processing it , the giving the response.
I would guess that 70% of candidates fail the second aspect of it.
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'If the mountain won't come down to Mohammad then Mohammad must go up to the mountain'!
I agree with the statement above 100 percent.
Here's another take on all this. Why limit yourself to CX? Seems like you are looking for an easy way out, living in HKG, flying for CX, the rest of your life is downhill through the primrose path...
If you want to fly commercially bad enough, you will find ways. It took me 10 years but I found mine.
I'm Asian, raised in the US. Got all my licenses myself, Comm, Multi, Instr. (self sponsored if you will).
Left the US with appx 250 hrs. I've worked in Asia doing bush flying, worked in Europe, Africa, Mid-East and now the US.
Yes, I've paid my dues and I climbed that moutain. It took me about 10 years to go from 250 bush flying hours to a widebody Captain.
It all boils down to how bad you want it. Some are luckier than others and that's the way life is.
If you fail the CX cadet program then try to apply as a DESO. What? you don't have enough hours? Then go get it.
All the DESO and DEFO that apply with CX, where did they get their time from? By working for various outfits throughout the world.
When I came here to Asia 10 years ago, I dreamt of working for CX but since I'm not a Hong Kongian or nor do I have enough hours to be eligible but I sent in my application anyway.
Now 10 years later, armed with my old PRN, I'm giving it a shot as a DEFO, may be I'll get it and may be I won't. But the important part is that I got myself here.
Sacrifice is the name of the game in aviation. We have all paid our dues. You will miss many New Years, Christmas', Thanksgiving and what not. You might not even be living at home with you family but if commercial flying is what you want then the opportunity is all there for you to take.
I have lived in the worst parts of the world and so have many of my colleagues. We have questioned our decisions in regards to career as pilots many times but the passion for flying always wins out.
Remember that you can always accept your fate, complain and whine or you can go out and do something about it. Heck, you might learn more about life along the way.
'If the mountain won't come down to Mohammad then Mohammad must go up to the mountain'!
I agree with the statement above 100 percent.
Here's another take on all this. Why limit yourself to CX? Seems like you are looking for an easy way out, living in HKG, flying for CX, the rest of your life is downhill through the primrose path...
If you want to fly commercially bad enough, you will find ways. It took me 10 years but I found mine.
I'm Asian, raised in the US. Got all my licenses myself, Comm, Multi, Instr. (self sponsored if you will).
Left the US with appx 250 hrs. I've worked in Asia doing bush flying, worked in Europe, Africa, Mid-East and now the US.
Yes, I've paid my dues and I climbed that moutain. It took me about 10 years to go from 250 bush flying hours to a widebody Captain.
It all boils down to how bad you want it. Some are luckier than others and that's the way life is.
If you fail the CX cadet program then try to apply as a DESO. What? you don't have enough hours? Then go get it.
All the DESO and DEFO that apply with CX, where did they get their time from? By working for various outfits throughout the world.
When I came here to Asia 10 years ago, I dreamt of working for CX but since I'm not a Hong Kongian or nor do I have enough hours to be eligible but I sent in my application anyway.
Now 10 years later, armed with my old PRN, I'm giving it a shot as a DEFO, may be I'll get it and may be I won't. But the important part is that I got myself here.
Sacrifice is the name of the game in aviation. We have all paid our dues. You will miss many New Years, Christmas', Thanksgiving and what not. You might not even be living at home with you family but if commercial flying is what you want then the opportunity is all there for you to take.
I have lived in the worst parts of the world and so have many of my colleagues. We have questioned our decisions in regards to career as pilots many times but the passion for flying always wins out.
Remember that you can always accept your fate, complain and whine or you can go out and do something about it. Heck, you might learn more about life along the way.
'If the mountain won't come down to Mohammad then Mohammad must go up to the mountain'!
Last edited by Taikonaut; 7th Sep 2005 at 15:17.
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This is not in any way meant to be an insult to HK born Chinese pilots, but there are no Hong Kong born Chinese flying for Japan Airlines mainline. All pilots on the mainline seniority list are Japanese born nationals, with the exception of about 10 remaining North American Captains. Even they may have retired by now. JAL mainline, currently, has a strict policy of no foreigners. This could change in the near future,
Jalways is a different story however. Several different nationalities.
Cheers
Jalways is a different story however. Several different nationalities.
Cheers
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For the author of this thread, there are dozens of people who sound just like you on prune. Needless to say you enjoy flying but didn't get into the program. Guess what? TOUGH
A lot of guys do sit on their hands and whine, why they failed and what they can do better. Not everyone is lucky enough to be taken. There are thousands every year rejected for the 30 plus prime spots on the program.
You love flying you say. What do you intend to do about it now? Being a local airline pilot is not the highest pay people in town. Everyone can afford to drive 2nd hand Porsche if need be. I knew one that drove a Ferrari, but has no money at all.
If you have the love, the drive and ambition, time to pay for the training yourself and apply elsewhere. One should not stop trying because of one bump in the road, and there are MANY success stories out there of people getting the flying job they want.
A lot of guys do sit on their hands and whine, why they failed and what they can do better. Not everyone is lucky enough to be taken. There are thousands every year rejected for the 30 plus prime spots on the program.
You love flying you say. What do you intend to do about it now? Being a local airline pilot is not the highest pay people in town. Everyone can afford to drive 2nd hand Porsche if need be. I knew one that drove a Ferrari, but has no money at all.
If you have the love, the drive and ambition, time to pay for the training yourself and apply elsewhere. One should not stop trying because of one bump in the road, and there are MANY success stories out there of people getting the flying job they want.
