Iberia IB6166, BOS-MAD, 2nd Dec, Cowboys !!!!
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I do wonder if some of the IB crew may not have posted here already. In any case I think is a fair asumption to make that the A340 did need deicing. The holdover time for an aircraft deiced with type I fluid with snow/snow grains and a temperature of -3 degrees (we know that as fact as it was reported in the ATIS) is 0:06 to 0:11. What is then the holdover time for a non deiced aircraft. It is also a reasonable asumption that they did not deice as when they where asked they said "we do not need deicing" several times. I think is reasonable to think they would have said "we have already deiced". Defending the indefensible only does further damage by some people.
The fact that mentioning names, flight numbers, etc is not useful is proven by the mob mentality and the emotional reponses that this tread has generated. Had the name of the airline been omited we might have got most of the useful discussion without any of the drum beating.
The fact that mentioning names, flight numbers, etc is not useful is proven by the mob mentality and the emotional reponses that this tread has generated. Had the name of the airline been omited we might have got most of the useful discussion without any of the drum beating.
Last edited by calypso; 6th Dec 2007 at 16:57.
Controversial, moi?
By the way, ¿any word from Light Twin Driver regarding those british cowboys (let me borrow you 'fair' word) riding that big horse across so many miles and so many souls on board, on 3 engines?.
Back to the thread. What has become abundantly clear is that, in the future, there will be further crashes due to airframes contaminated with ice and snow deposits. I just wish we could know the flight numbers of the defenders of the indefensible here so that we have the option of not risking our lives alongside them.
It is not difficult to determine of a wing has ice or snow on it is it? And if it is in doubt then de-ice anyway. I do and have done.
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Having listened to the tapes
and heard every other aircraft de-ice, surely the one remaining question is:
Is Frank Duran is a commercial pilot or a wind-up merchant?
To imply as you did Sir, that the BA crew are the real cowboys sticks in my throat.
Is Frank Duran is a commercial pilot or a wind-up merchant?
To imply as you did Sir, that the BA crew are the real cowboys sticks in my throat.
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As a reasonably well informed member of the SLF community and a frequent reader of PPRUNE this particular thread has prompted me to join in for the first time. (My first post and, sorry, it’s a long one)
Let me explain why:
I have been shocked by the complacent, reckless and unprofessional attitude displayed by some on this thread regarding ice/snow on the wing. And judging by some comments here it seems that these events and this attitude are not isolated to one or two of the aviation community.
There is simply no excuse for not de-icing under any circumstances.
I recommend reading or re-reading the NTSB Advisory that was posted earlier
ALERT TO PILOTS: WING UPPER SURFACE ICE ACCUMULATION
http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2004/041229.htm
There have been far too many incidents where crew felt that they “could get away with it” and didn’t.
As such I must state my position being an “informed SLF” that when traveling during icy ground conditions I personally inspect the aircraft as best I can do as a passenger and if I see snow or ice on the wing and fail in getting/seeing appropriate action, de-icing, being taken I will remove myself from the aircraft (even if it has left the gate I will insist) with all the disruption that causes. Plus I will make an official complaint/report on the incident.
I very much sympathise with flight crews regarding the commercial pressures imposed by airline/airport management but as is well known these problems are not just of commercial pressures (though they are significant) – crew psychology plays its part. ( the disastrous incident at Washington is a sobering example of this)
An ego that thinks it can get past the laws of physics is a dangerous colleague and very much the cowboy. Though tarring an entire organisation with the same brush when psychological issues and stupidity know no borders is not very constructive unless you focus such criticism on all organisations that allow such incidents to happen.
If you see any incident like this you must report it bearing in mind that the crew might be unaware of the problem(and might be a thankful fair-weather pilot) and the hundred or so passengers, who might soon end up dead, almost certainly totally unaware.
As was said earlier “It’s better to be twenty minutes late than twenty years too early”.
So de-ice your aircraft.
Regards
A Passenger
Let me explain why:
I have been shocked by the complacent, reckless and unprofessional attitude displayed by some on this thread regarding ice/snow on the wing. And judging by some comments here it seems that these events and this attitude are not isolated to one or two of the aviation community.
There is simply no excuse for not de-icing under any circumstances.
I recommend reading or re-reading the NTSB Advisory that was posted earlier
ALERT TO PILOTS: WING UPPER SURFACE ICE ACCUMULATION
http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2004/041229.htm
There have been far too many incidents where crew felt that they “could get away with it” and didn’t.
As such I must state my position being an “informed SLF” that when traveling during icy ground conditions I personally inspect the aircraft as best I can do as a passenger and if I see snow or ice on the wing and fail in getting/seeing appropriate action, de-icing, being taken I will remove myself from the aircraft (even if it has left the gate I will insist) with all the disruption that causes. Plus I will make an official complaint/report on the incident.
I very much sympathise with flight crews regarding the commercial pressures imposed by airline/airport management but as is well known these problems are not just of commercial pressures (though they are significant) – crew psychology plays its part. ( the disastrous incident at Washington is a sobering example of this)
An ego that thinks it can get past the laws of physics is a dangerous colleague and very much the cowboy. Though tarring an entire organisation with the same brush when psychological issues and stupidity know no borders is not very constructive unless you focus such criticism on all organisations that allow such incidents to happen.
If you see any incident like this you must report it bearing in mind that the crew might be unaware of the problem(and might be a thankful fair-weather pilot) and the hundred or so passengers, who might soon end up dead, almost certainly totally unaware.
As was said earlier “It’s better to be twenty minutes late than twenty years too early”.
So de-ice your aircraft.
Regards
A Passenger
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It would be nice if someone who flies for IB (or who did) can give us a clue on their SOP regarding de-icing.
By the way, I didn't know you can do a check of the wings in two minutes (besides checking through the window). No bias here I am neither British nor Spanish
ISsit so hard to assume an error?! I do not understand on what ground one defends no de-icing decision?! Even if we ignore the LTD's statement we have 2 facts:
1) Weather at the specified time
2) Audio tapes
It would be easy for any regulatory authority to investigate that. As for the picture as a source if info, come on! The one suggesting that would be the first one to say it was doctored!
I guess for some here, crew's "feeling" wherever they fly is better then regulation, right
As for capability of someone inspecting the de-iced wing here's an article on that.
By the way, I didn't know you can do a check of the wings in two minutes (besides checking through the window). No bias here I am neither British nor Spanish
ISsit so hard to assume an error?! I do not understand on what ground one defends no de-icing decision?! Even if we ignore the LTD's statement we have 2 facts:
1) Weather at the specified time
2) Audio tapes
It would be easy for any regulatory authority to investigate that. As for the picture as a source if info, come on! The one suggesting that would be the first one to say it was doctored!
I guess for some here, crew's "feeling" wherever they fly is better then regulation, right
As for capability of someone inspecting the de-iced wing here's an article on that.
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A Passenger,
With all respect, but please note that that this is a Professional Pilots website.
I have seen no post here that promotes flying with ice/snow accumulation.
Despegue
With all respect, but please note that that this is a Professional Pilots website.
I have seen no post here that promotes flying with ice/snow accumulation.
Despegue
Controversial, moi?
Then try re-reading this thread from the start because that is just what has been implied by some.
And despite being a current commercial pilot with some years experience I welcome informed opinion from those such as the passenger above. This forum is open to all despite the name and I for one am not so arrogant as to dismiss his opinion.
And despite being a current commercial pilot with some years experience I welcome informed opinion from those such as the passenger above. This forum is open to all despite the name and I for one am not so arrogant as to dismiss his opinion.
I´ve seen ANS (a feeder for IB) take-off(with their CRJ-200´s) a lot of times out of Badajoz early morning with early-morning-frost all over the baby, without de-icing.....You may blame the spanish culture, but there haven´t been much incident/accidents.
And no, I don´t defend the spanish culture although I love the way they live their lifes!
And no, I don´t defend the spanish culture although I love the way they live their lifes!
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There's the Spanish forum called Pilotos de Iberia
www.pilotosdeiberia.com
Perhaps one of the Spanish guys could post a link there in Spanish to this thread to keep the Iberia guys in the loop and could get more facts.
Interesting how experience and attitudes can get in the way and be dangerous.
Not referring to this crew but generally.
" It will be alright I have done it before and had no problems many times, there son. "
www.pilotosdeiberia.com
Perhaps one of the Spanish guys could post a link there in Spanish to this thread to keep the Iberia guys in the loop and could get more facts.
Interesting how experience and attitudes can get in the way and be dangerous.
Not referring to this crew but generally.
" It will be alright I have done it before and had no problems many times, there son. "
www.extracrew.com is a much better spanish site, and quess what?
They already know, from pprune!
They already know, from pprune!
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I´ve seen ANS (a feeder for IB) take-off(with their CRJ-200´s) a lot of times out of Badajoz early morning with early-morning-frost all over the baby, without de-icing.....You may blame the spanish culture, but there haven´t been much incident/accidents.
There is probably not many aircraft more susceptible to ice than that high wing-loading non-slatted CRJ200
It seems that non-slatted jets get in trouble with ice/snow easier than their slatted big brothers. I guess that makes aerodynamic sense.
I can remember at least two F28 crashes, a C604 and a CRJ200. But I can’t really recall any with slatted jets.
Last edited by DK_FCI; 7th Dec 2007 at 05:38.
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Air Nostrum pilots, in informal conversations, confirmed to Bombardier personnel (over few beers) that they do not feel a need for de-icing at the Peninsula and in the vicinity.
Topic was raised during one of their training/update sessions with Bombardier staff. They were advised to correct this approach for obvious reasons (best and worst example, at the same time, the CL-604 loss in Birmingham, UK on January 2002.
It looked as an eye opener, for them. I guess maybe MFS will have more stories
of that kind, if he follows this thread.
Please never fly with (suspected) icing on wings of CL models. NEVER!!
Topic was raised during one of their training/update sessions with Bombardier staff. They were advised to correct this approach for obvious reasons (best and worst example, at the same time, the CL-604 loss in Birmingham, UK on January 2002.
It looked as an eye opener, for them. I guess maybe MFS will have more stories
of that kind, if he follows this thread.
Please never fly with (suspected) icing on wings of CL models. NEVER!!
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You may blame the spanish culture, but there haven´t been much incident/accidents.
www.pilotosdeiberia.com
Perhaps one of the Spanish guys could post a link there in Spanish to this thread to keep the Iberia guys in the loop and could get more facts.
Interestingly enough, there is a deafening silence in the relevant thread in our own Spanish Forum entitled (and I quote!
) "iberia cowboy" - only three posts in total, all dated 3 Dec and including the one pointing to this thread.
Jack
PS Perhaps Frank Duran could be even more frank ......
Perhaps one of the Spanish guys could post a link there in Spanish to this thread to keep the Iberia guys in the loop and could get more facts.
Interestingly enough, there is a deafening silence in the relevant thread in our own Spanish Forum entitled (and I quote!
) "iberia cowboy" - only three posts in total, all dated 3 Dec and including the one pointing to this thread. Jack
PS Perhaps Frank Duran could be even more frank ......
Trash du Blanc
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(best and worst example, at the same time, the CL-604 loss in Birmingham, UK on January 2002.
Montrose Challenger crash.
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Also Continental in Denver, a non-slatted DC-9.
The Continental jet, carrying 82 people on a flight to Boise, Idaho, had just taken off in a heavy snowstorm Sunday afternoon when the wings were reported to have rocked back and forth. One wing was ripped away, the plane was tossed on its back and slid to a halt in three main pieces about 2,500 feet from the end of the 10,000-foot runway. #27 People Killed Although more than a dozen passengers walked away from the crash with only minor injuries, 27 people, including the two pilots, were killed, and 10 of the survivors were reported in critical condition yesterday afternoon.
Last edited by DK_FCI; 7th Dec 2007 at 06:08.