Iberia IB6166, BOS-MAD, 2nd Dec, Cowboys !!!!
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Really?
So,erm let me get this right Fruity & Co as I think I am missing something.
If you were sat next to an airliner that appeared to your professional eye,in weather conditions that you deemed a relevant concern,to be contaminated-you would pass no comment?
So-if you experienced windshear on approach or departure for example,you would say nothing also as presumably the commander will have telepathy to assit him in the event no-one else does?
A polite riposte may be in order-but I think LTDs comments were designed to prevent not provoke.
3 years ago in FRA-I was sat opposite a C-17 at the holding point of 18 in steady snow,we waited 15 mins or so for our turn to be sprayed,the C-17 elected to "give it a go"-we had a grand view of his upper surfaces and let them know they were covered before they blasted off into the murk.
He replied that they were "inside the holdover-but thanks anyway"
Lufthansa then also piped up-and with a pause,the C-17 vacated the runway and were re-done behind us.
Flight safety is no place for political correctness-unless of course your parked next to "Teddy Bear Air"
IC
If you were sat next to an airliner that appeared to your professional eye,in weather conditions that you deemed a relevant concern,to be contaminated-you would pass no comment?
So-if you experienced windshear on approach or departure for example,you would say nothing also as presumably the commander will have telepathy to assit him in the event no-one else does?
A polite riposte may be in order-but I think LTDs comments were designed to prevent not provoke.
3 years ago in FRA-I was sat opposite a C-17 at the holding point of 18 in steady snow,we waited 15 mins or so for our turn to be sprayed,the C-17 elected to "give it a go"-we had a grand view of his upper surfaces and let them know they were covered before they blasted off into the murk.
He replied that they were "inside the holdover-but thanks anyway"
Lufthansa then also piped up-and with a pause,the C-17 vacated the runway and were re-done behind us.
Flight safety is no place for political correctness-unless of course your parked next to "Teddy Bear Air"
IC
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I totally agree, and anyone would be mad not to listen. But we must assume the Iberia crew did listen and for a reason unbeknown to us they felt they were safe and within all the limits.
We can't have people getting on this forum after a night out of bed and directly accusing a crew, purely because their view was different.
We can't have people getting on this forum after a night out of bed and directly accusing a crew, purely because their view was different.
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Fruity-babe.... aye..you..!Look forward to your self-effacing thread regarding the next "icing" incident that pops up on an AAIB or NTSB report...
How many times in CRM lectures have we all sat and viewed with incredulity the Air Florida incident in Washington (Potomac) in the 80's and innumerable other such instances (CL-604 at BHX a few years back).. where aircraft commanders choosing to dice (sorry no pun) with icing issues has resulted in headlines the next day
Well done LTD... you displayed your professionalism as an aviator.. and your compassion for the travelling public at large... would be proud to call you a colleague and travel behind you any day
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So we start naming and shaming crews 'we' think are wrong and labelling them as cowboys?
No one is questionning the intital call to atc, in fact its the one thing everyone is agreed on. Slightly disturbed that very few think its unacceptable to come on here and identify a crew and acuse them of something the media could get hold off and produce a sensationlist front page.
The story according to LTD is that they raised the issue as a concern, and quite right to no one disagrees with that. We dont know what deicing had occured and the subsequent holdover times that resulted, but we have to assume the Iberia crew made a decision based on their experience and knowledge and in accordance with their sops. Why then if that decision differs to ours are they cowboys?
No one is questionning the intital call to atc, in fact its the one thing everyone is agreed on. Slightly disturbed that very few think its unacceptable to come on here and identify a crew and acuse them of something the media could get hold off and produce a sensationlist front page.
The story according to LTD is that they raised the issue as a concern, and quite right to no one disagrees with that. We dont know what deicing had occured and the subsequent holdover times that resulted, but we have to assume the Iberia crew made a decision based on their experience and knowledge and in accordance with their sops. Why then if that decision differs to ours are they cowboys?
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SOME YEARS AGO DOING MIA-MAD ON THE 747 WE HAD THESE GUYS BEHIND US TRYING TO SNEAK THEM SELVES ON THE APP SEQUENCE , ANYWAY WE LANDED FIRST AND WE TOOK ONE OF THE LAST TAXYWAYS, AS WE TURNED OFF AND TAXIED TO THE TERMINAL, WE SAW THIS IB GUYS LANDING , AND LEAVING THRU ONE OF THE FIRST HIGH SPEED TURN OFF SMOKING ALL 12 TYRES OF THEIR 747 JUST TO GET IN FRONT OF US.
(IT WAS A NICE SHOW TO WATCH)
SO AFTER ALL THEY STILL HAVE SOME COWBOYS !
IF A WAS THE CAPT OF THAT FLIGHT AT JFK I WILL THANK YOU THE COMMENT
, EVEN IF I KNEW IT WAS SAVE TO GO.GOOD CRM
(IT WAS A NICE SHOW TO WATCH)SO AFTER ALL THEY STILL HAVE SOME COWBOYS !
IF A WAS THE CAPT OF THAT FLIGHT AT JFK I WILL THANK YOU THE COMMENT
, EVEN IF I KNEW IT WAS SAVE TO GO.GOOD CRM
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Iberia ? Hmmm....
Speaking to an ATC professional recently, he alluded to the fact that the Spanish flag carrier figured prominently in runway incursions and level busts in the airspace he worked.
I think there have been enough stories of spanish practice here to warrant flagging up concerns to the appropriate authorities: even if it only achieves an "I told you so" at the subsequent enquiry.
LTD, Sir, have you considered filing an MOR and using the free text box to request the info is sent to the Spanish CAA (AENA)?
It will be interesting, once EASA assumes European responsibility for all safety domains, what the filing of a Euro MOR will achieve, but until then I'd suggest at least file it so a record exists.
Another one off my list.
Sir George Cayley
I think there have been enough stories of spanish practice here to warrant flagging up concerns to the appropriate authorities: even if it only achieves an "I told you so" at the subsequent enquiry.
LTD, Sir, have you considered filing an MOR and using the free text box to request the info is sent to the Spanish CAA (AENA)?
It will be interesting, once EASA assumes European responsibility for all safety domains, what the filing of a Euro MOR will achieve, but until then I'd suggest at least file it so a record exists.
Another one off my list.
Sir George Cayley
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Upper wing icing
We have this posted in our line station and thought it may make interesting reading. It would in my view totally validate Light Twin Drivers concern.
http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2004/041229.htm
If link does not work go to www.ntsb.gov search "wing upper surface ice accumulation"
http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2004/041229.htm
If link does not work go to www.ntsb.gov search "wing upper surface ice accumulation"
Last edited by AVOdriver; 3rd Dec 2007 at 17:31. Reason: link did not work, now correct
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We dont know what deicing had occured and the subsequent holdover times that resulted, but we have to assume the Iberia crew made a decision based on their experience and knowledge and in accordance with their sops. Why then if that decision differs to ours are they cowboys?
Nobody had deiced because there was no snow falling all day.It was forecast from about 3 pm local time.
It started falling at about 6 and within half an hour the viz was down to a mile and the runways were contaminated.
I can assure you that Iberia did not carry out any deiceing whatsoever-when I did our external check I would have noticed any fluid on the ground,as our wing tips were very close.
I have been a professional pilot over 20 years.
I don't know of any airline of any size that permits you to take off with snow on upper wing surfaces-tell me if you know different.
The fact that we politely told ATC/Iberia that they were covered in snow and they then waved at us as they pushed says it all-they would have seen us beginning deicing just as they pushed.
I would have hoped that they would have seen how much we had picked up on all surfaces and possibly deduced that they had a similar amount,having arrived just before us-but no,just a sarcastic wave from all 3 crew members.
I 'd make the same judgement every time-I just hope that it's not frivolously ignored next time.
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ignorants
Wel, I worked a couple of years in Italy as a captain on the ATR. I saw many of my collegues taking of with their wings full of frost. Why? Pressure from the management to save costs. And unfortunately many of them think that a thin layer of frost on the wings doesnt affect the aerodynamics of the plane. So, avoid I-registered ATR's.
Happy landings, vakantieman
Happy landings, vakantieman
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Ref NTSB
Sitting at work with v limited access so no google etc.
Clicked my own post to check and both links are working for me.
Maybe try searching National Transportation Safety Board
Alert was issued Dec 29, 2004, Titled: Alert to Pilots: Wing Upper Surface Ice Accumulation.
Just in case you dont find it to quote two very small extracts
"According to wind tunnel data, a wing upper suface roughness caused by particles of only 1-2 mm diameter (size of a grain of table salt) at a density of one particle per square centimeter, can cause lift losses of about 22 and 33 percent in ground effect and free air respectively".
And
"The bottom line is that pilots should be aware that no amount of snow, ice or frost accumulation on the wing upper surface can be considered safe for takeoff"
i.e. you get my vote for sure.
Clicked my own post to check and both links are working for me.
Maybe try searching National Transportation Safety Board
Alert was issued Dec 29, 2004, Titled: Alert to Pilots: Wing Upper Surface Ice Accumulation.
Just in case you dont find it to quote two very small extracts
"According to wind tunnel data, a wing upper suface roughness caused by particles of only 1-2 mm diameter (size of a grain of table salt) at a density of one particle per square centimeter, can cause lift losses of about 22 and 33 percent in ground effect and free air respectively".
And
"The bottom line is that pilots should be aware that no amount of snow, ice or frost accumulation on the wing upper surface can be considered safe for takeoff"
i.e. you get my vote for sure.
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well done LTD !
if i was SLF on that iberia plane i would have appreciated your intervention LTD. for the sake of arriving home safe and sound with my family.
and so would have the other 300 odd SLF too, i am sure.
that they took off without de-icing is up to them; the term cowboy might be a bit harsh.
what worries me most is the reaction of your fellow captains. i hope they never need a hint about a safety concern - and i really hope i'll never have one of them in the cockpit when i am SLF...
how close the escape for the iberia passengers was - no one really knows. i m glad they made it home despite ignoring all safety warnings.
safe flights everyone !
if i was SLF on that iberia plane i would have appreciated your intervention LTD. for the sake of arriving home safe and sound with my family.
and so would have the other 300 odd SLF too, i am sure.
that they took off without de-icing is up to them; the term cowboy might be a bit harsh.
what worries me most is the reaction of your fellow captains. i hope they never need a hint about a safety concern - and i really hope i'll never have one of them in the cockpit when i am SLF...
how close the escape for the iberia passengers was - no one really knows. i m glad they made it home despite ignoring all safety warnings.
safe flights everyone !
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LTD I dont wish to get into an argument or appear to be attacking you.
However it is accepted practice to apply a preventative anti ice if conditions forecasted dictate it necessary. Not having access to the IB 340 tech log or holdover times to hand or evidence to suggest this may have been done before the aircraft was possibly towed onto stand it is just a theory based on what you have previously stated here.
But the issue continually put to you is that this is the wrong place for bar room rants that identify others as unprofessional cowboys. If you feel strongly about this use the correct channels. As a veteran of 20yrs in this industry you should know this.
And please do make the same call to ATC in the future it is to be commended I would do the same it is what sets us apart from many industries, ignoring commercial rivalries for the sake of safety.
However it is accepted practice to apply a preventative anti ice if conditions forecasted dictate it necessary. Not having access to the IB 340 tech log or holdover times to hand or evidence to suggest this may have been done before the aircraft was possibly towed onto stand it is just a theory based on what you have previously stated here.
But the issue continually put to you is that this is the wrong place for bar room rants that identify others as unprofessional cowboys. If you feel strongly about this use the correct channels. As a veteran of 20yrs in this industry you should know this.
And please do make the same call to ATC in the future it is to be commended I would do the same it is what sets us apart from many industries, ignoring commercial rivalries for the sake of safety.
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Might this not be a case of not what you say but how you say it?
Shouting on the radio "YES YOU DO!" when ATC is asking them if they need to deice and posting "Iberia Cowboys" flight so and so. Perhaps not the best way to put your point across.
How about:
"IBXXX from XXXX we are next to you on the ramp and for your information we can see large deposits of snow in your wing".
and
"Iberia deicing procedures?" the other day bla, bla bla (ie the actual flight de-identified)
For the avoidance of doubt I do agree they should be told and they are cowboys if they did take off with a contaminated wing. I do not defend the actions of the IB crew.
Shouting on the radio "YES YOU DO!" when ATC is asking them if they need to deice and posting "Iberia Cowboys" flight so and so. Perhaps not the best way to put your point across.
How about:
"IBXXX from XXXX we are next to you on the ramp and for your information we can see large deposits of snow in your wing".
and
"Iberia deicing procedures?" the other day bla, bla bla (ie the actual flight de-identified)
For the avoidance of doubt I do agree they should be told and they are cowboys if they did take off with a contaminated wing. I do not defend the actions of the IB crew.
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I was on a later BOS-LHR service and the Iberia situation was mentioned by our ground staff. All aircraft required de-icing last night. Virgin Aer Lingus and BA were fighting for the only available rig at the international terminal.
Chirp anyone?
Chirp anyone?
LTD, you did exactly the right thing and I would have done the same.
'Cowboys' is a highly appropriate and perhaps overly polite description of these pilots actions.
I don't take off without a clean wing, full stop.If someone had pointed out to me that was not the case I would have thanked them and had the de icing repeated.
I doubt too many real 'Cowboys' are surfing the Pprune, or would be offended, if so perhaps they could p**s off where the Buffalo roam..
'Cowboys' is a highly appropriate and perhaps overly polite description of these pilots actions.
I don't take off without a clean wing, full stop.If someone had pointed out to me that was not the case I would have thanked them and had the de icing repeated.
I doubt too many real 'Cowboys' are surfing the Pprune, or would be offended, if so perhaps they could p**s off where the Buffalo roam..
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Now, this professional colleague was parked on a neighbouring stand. Knowing Boston there must have been neighbouring a/c at the holding point. What did they see? Pushing back with accumulation on the wings is not professional, and not telling them is not friendly. Seeing the same thing at the holding point is not only not professional and not friendly is it is an accessory before the fact.
I hope we all look out for each other out there. One day it might be you!!!
An aside. Do any of the Iberia main airports become effected by snow etc often? Remember Air Florida and Potomac?!? Unfamiliar crew with unfamiliar conditions.
Better to be 20 mins late than 20 years early.
I hope we all look out for each other out there. One day it might be you!!!
An aside. Do any of the Iberia main airports become effected by snow etc often? Remember Air Florida and Potomac?!? Unfamiliar crew with unfamiliar conditions.
Better to be 20 mins late than 20 years early.
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Hi
i took the liberty of pasting the original post of LTD for the spanish guys with a quick note...hopefully it will spread among them too..
never too late too see the risk they took...it might convince the next rotation crew.
Ps.but enough of silly comments about the all IB way of riding the horse...we have all seen the good and bad everywhere...regardless of ice.
stupidity doesn't have a passport.
i took the liberty of pasting the original post of LTD for the spanish guys with a quick note...hopefully it will spread among them too..
never too late too see the risk they took...it might convince the next rotation crew.
Ps.but enough of silly comments about the all IB way of riding the horse...we have all seen the good and bad everywhere...regardless of ice.
stupidity doesn't have a passport.
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Well done LTD. You are a true professional.
A few years back I was told by the Fed Ex behind me that my Horizontal Stab had a lot of snow. We had been de-iced but the ground staff had run out of fluid and neglected to tell us. I very much appreciated the comment from Fed Ex, thanked him, and went back to the ramp.
A few years back I was told by the Fed Ex behind me that my Horizontal Stab had a lot of snow. We had been de-iced but the ground staff had run out of fluid and neglected to tell us. I very much appreciated the comment from Fed Ex, thanked him, and went back to the ramp.