Altitude PreSelect : Who Sets it?

[Sir Donald]

411's

''And then again, when the ATC controller says...'EAN4126, climb to FL370' the non-flying pilot (me) responds to the controller accordingly, resets the altitude selector, arms same and then says to the flying pilot (in this case the First Officer)...there you go, 370.

First Officer responds....where the heck is the coffee? while ringing the call bell, then finding the hosties in the down galley having a smoke.

All this verbal diatribe used today is totally un-necessary and a complete waste of time.
Dreamed up by Airboos, no doubt''.

It was dreamed up by teams who conducted a lot of research on how best to develop,maintain situational awareness amongst other things.I find this a rather pathetic and childish response.Mind you I do not have the gazilions of hours as yourself.

I have flown with various guys and the ones that screw it up are often very experinced machos not newly promoted F/O's or Skippers.
If this happens at your present operator than some serious re-training needs to be undertaken by everyone that works there.

In your example,If the FO cannot prioritise between altitude confirmation first,whilst hand flying and at the same time trying to order coffee by looking on the overhead panel trying to locate the call attendants switch,then your case against SOP is unjustified on those bases.Majority of accidents can be attributed to the statment above which encourages a casual or total disregard/approach to SOP'S.A latent failure.

I know there seems to be a lot of ''red tape'' but if I cant explain something then my reason for giving up is''there must be a bigger picture'' reason.

Experince breads complacency which in turn is the paradox that comes from experience.

Safe fly'n

[teamilk&sugar]

LUCILLE
I don't know why you felt you had to PM'd me with the following rather abrupt message (part of which I'll remind you of)...why didn't you just post it on this thread....?

By way of explanation, I know what most airlines do and also what the Boeing & Airbus manuals state.
They have recommended a method for a reason.
What I need to know is WHY?
So if you have some spare time and wish to redeem yourself, I would be grateful if you could search the web for me. Go check the NASA and FSF sites, maybe you can find it where I failed.
Cheers.......

First off.....I answered the question you asked at the top of this thread....
I'll remind you of your original post:

I am seeking a research based reference source which recommends who does what and when to the altitude preselect knob.

Now call me thick, but that question does not ask "WHY?" It asks who does what and when. The answer to that, as I stated in my reply, is stated in the relevant Flight Crew Training Manual and Company manual(s) by way of SOP.

Now, if you feel you have been offended by my first answer and have subsequently decided that you now want to change your question, so be it, but don't accuse me of being unprofessional and ask me to search the web for you....

If your question is seeking an answer as to WHY PF does something and PM does something else, then I'll pass on the discussion as quite frankly it's not important to me. It obviously is to you, but I just fly the way my Company SOP tells me to.

If you want to change the question again, please just post it here, and don't bother Pm'ing me.
Ta

[411A]

You must be an Airboos trained newby, Sir Donald...the very ones who are likely to criticise old timers like me who, oddly enough, never came even close to an incident/accident.
Shock, horror.
Come back when you have 25,000+ flight hours and tell us then how it's all done...the new way.
Gosh, just imagine.
All the thousands of pilots that came along before the present batch, and nearly all of these never bent metal, or even came close.
Sudden thought...how did they do it?
With a little common sense....sadly lacking in many of todays modern FD's, with guys that couldn't tell the time of day without a checklist and standard diatribe.

[Sir Donald]

411
I am not a newly trained Airboo,far from it.
Statistics tell us one thing and that is an attitude like yours,don't get me wrong,you are probably fun to fly with but beacuse of your experience level you tend to become complacent and fly without a checklist or SOP.Yea yea I have done this many times over,but under the right conditions the odds of bending metal are staked in your favor.It has been proven many times over and 25000+hours does not insure you against the possiblity either.
Guess what,a higly experienced Captain refused to do the after take off checklist, ''you need to be an idiot'' to pull out the laminated carboard out,and he was well known for it.Guess what happened one sunny day?
After a bleeds of take off?Just that,did it many times over he did not bother to look and confirm the pack switches position he just assumed.And thats the purpose of a checklist.Not a biggie by your standard,what counts for you is obviously ''bent metal'' and nothing inbetween.And that is one case of many for which I do not have the time to list here.We appropriately re-named the said panel in his honour.
There are well documented cases of overbearing highly experinced guys who fly perfectly servicable airplanes into the ground for no other reason than their overconfident''attitude''.

[411A]

It works both ways...

You might be surprised at what I sometimes find, Sir Donald, even with new guys who have learned how to use a checklist, when they don't pay attention.

Some years ago, after start, when the First officer was reading the after start check for the Flight Engineer, he came to 'ATM's ' and the F/E replied 'Auto', yet failed to switch either to the auto position.

I wanted to see if he really was paying attention...and he was...to something else, as when the landing gear was selected up after takeoff, it was slow to retract and the young lad wanted to know why...until I pointed out offhandedly that when he replies to 'Auto' the switches actually have to be moved in the proper way, otherwise...nothing happens, checklist used or not.

What an absolute surprise.

[Dash7Ace]

the way we do it ..

with response to the query on who does what in this particular scenario the
PF calls "set and arm altitude/level", to which the,
PNF sets and arms and calls "altitude/level set and armed", and the
PF responds by calling "check"
hope that helps