Mixed Flight Crew (m/f) a Human Factors Issue in any airline ?
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Mixed Flight Crew (m/f) a Human Factors Issue in any airline ?
Not really fiting in in the tec section , I know but the right place to reach fellow professionals, I think.
According to my experience as an airline captain it indeed matters if the other crewmember is male or female. IŽam wondering if IŽam the only one feeling that way and if adressing this issue is overdue and sometimes avoided due to an PC-driven attitude. To make my point clear : IŽam not against women in multicrew cockpits, however we are discussing all kinds of human factors related issues. My impression is that this one is not adressed in a proper manner and we need to sharpen our awareness also in that respect.
Any thoughts on this one ? Thanks, RvB.
According to my experience as an airline captain it indeed matters if the other crewmember is male or female. IŽam wondering if IŽam the only one feeling that way and if adressing this issue is overdue and sometimes avoided due to an PC-driven attitude. To make my point clear : IŽam not against women in multicrew cockpits, however we are discussing all kinds of human factors related issues. My impression is that this one is not adressed in a proper manner and we need to sharpen our awareness also in that respect.
Any thoughts on this one ? Thanks, RvB.
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To my mind this all has the potential to become very divisive. Although that said, I think RvB is asking a legitimate question. In reply to FO Kite
You would hope. However, some of the big scare stories apart, I'm sure the experiences of expat pilots, or contractors would illustrate that cultural background does indeed become an issue in certain flightdecks and situations. Gender (and I'm going down a blind alley here) informs also a great deal of things - I'm thinking literature for example - and whilst I'm as unqualified as you can get to comment on this, it is not impossible that the question of gender merits discussion per se.
Surely a first officer with a professional pilot's licence and selected for the job is just that - a competent pilot irrespective of sex, race or cultural background?
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Not really fiting in in the tec section , I know but the right place to reach fellow professionals, I think.
According to my experience as an airline captain it indeed matters if the other crewmember is male or female
IŽam wondering if IŽam the only one feeling that way and if adressing this issue is overdue and sometimes avoided due to an PC-driven attitude.
To make my point clear : IŽam not against women in multicrew cockpits,
however we are discussing all kinds of human factors related issues.
My impression is that this one is not adressed in a proper manner and we need to sharpen our awareness also in that respect.
Any thoughts on this one ? Thanks, RvB.
There are good pilots and there are bad pilots. Some good pilots are men and some bad pilots are women and VICE VERSA!!!
Cheers
Whirls
At least female pilots tend to smell nicer!!!
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And what IS that question exactly?
You are allowed to talk about inveterate differences amongst people without it being denigrating by the way..
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Maybe I see a potential for problems, whereas IŽam the problem.
Maybe I just had bad luck in flying with female copilots who were not properly qualified.
I donŽt think so.
The question is :
Is there any relationship between flightcrew performance and gender-constellation ?
As captain I try to achieve best results out of the crewŽs cooperation I find myself working together with and which IŽam leading as a commander. How can I fulfill this task without being aware of Human Factors in general and specifically in regard to gender ?
No matter how hard we try to turn down the facts in the end we must accept that weŽre human beings and sometimes beings with differences in the way we function, behave, react, communicate and so on. Quality and magnitude of differences among male pilots I see is by far smaller than between male and female pilots. IŽam not ranking those differences, nor do I say itŽs an impossible thing to manage.
The important point is knowing the differences, the traps, the potential of arising problems causing degradation of team performance.
Experience showed me that things work out better, if I sharpen my awareness related to the fact that my copilot is female before going to briefing.
Yes right, we aquired our licences. Yes right, we passed our entry procedures at an airline. Still, apart from our knowledge and our skills that are asked for to sit in the right or left seat of an airliner there are important differences (as we all know) in perception, communication, reaction to imputs driven by patterns laid down in our early education, socialization and our instincts. We are not the same beings and I find demanding exactly that is quite naive.
Flightcrew performance is dependend from the way two human beings cooperate.
Certainly : We are pilots, not a psychologists and doing things by intuition is good and often enough. Unfortunately not always. Awareness and anticipation is important.
Reading some of above posts confirms my thought of this issue being a taboo-issue.
RvB
Maybe I just had bad luck in flying with female copilots who were not properly qualified.
I donŽt think so.
The question is :
Is there any relationship between flightcrew performance and gender-constellation ?
As captain I try to achieve best results out of the crewŽs cooperation I find myself working together with and which IŽam leading as a commander. How can I fulfill this task without being aware of Human Factors in general and specifically in regard to gender ?
No matter how hard we try to turn down the facts in the end we must accept that weŽre human beings and sometimes beings with differences in the way we function, behave, react, communicate and so on. Quality and magnitude of differences among male pilots I see is by far smaller than between male and female pilots. IŽam not ranking those differences, nor do I say itŽs an impossible thing to manage.
The important point is knowing the differences, the traps, the potential of arising problems causing degradation of team performance.
Experience showed me that things work out better, if I sharpen my awareness related to the fact that my copilot is female before going to briefing.
Yes right, we aquired our licences. Yes right, we passed our entry procedures at an airline. Still, apart from our knowledge and our skills that are asked for to sit in the right or left seat of an airliner there are important differences (as we all know) in perception, communication, reaction to imputs driven by patterns laid down in our early education, socialization and our instincts. We are not the same beings and I find demanding exactly that is quite naive.
Flightcrew performance is dependend from the way two human beings cooperate.
Certainly : We are pilots, not a psychologists and doing things by intuition is good and often enough. Unfortunately not always. Awareness and anticipation is important.
Reading some of above posts confirms my thought of this issue being a taboo-issue.
RvB
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One of the dangers with any topic such as this is generalisation.
One cannot say, "men behave like this, women behave like that". We are all individuals and should be treated as such. Common themes such as courtesy, being even-tempered, fair should run through any working relationship.
A lot of women do not respond well to agression; neither do a lot of men but the reaction could well be different but, as a man, you might be more likely to expect the reaction.
A lot of women do not have egos like some men do. Some men might find that hard to comprehend.
But, I re-iterate, we are all individuals; try getting to know the person, try treating all people equally. If some respond well and others don't (whether male or female), then ask yourself why. Did you handle a situation well?
Also, think about all your co-pilots; are all the bad female? Common sense should say that on the law of averages, you must have had some crap male pilots and some good female ones. Just have a think about the percentages involved.
If you're not getting the best out of your female pilots, are you trying to treat them differently like they're another species?
I do think you need to look to yourself as well.
Cheers
Whirls
One cannot say, "men behave like this, women behave like that". We are all individuals and should be treated as such. Common themes such as courtesy, being even-tempered, fair should run through any working relationship.
A lot of women do not respond well to agression; neither do a lot of men but the reaction could well be different but, as a man, you might be more likely to expect the reaction.
A lot of women do not have egos like some men do. Some men might find that hard to comprehend.
But, I re-iterate, we are all individuals; try getting to know the person, try treating all people equally. If some respond well and others don't (whether male or female), then ask yourself why. Did you handle a situation well?
Also, think about all your co-pilots; are all the bad female? Common sense should say that on the law of averages, you must have had some crap male pilots and some good female ones. Just have a think about the percentages involved.
If you're not getting the best out of your female pilots, are you trying to treat them differently like they're another species?
I do think you need to look to yourself as well.
Cheers
Whirls
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Well articulated Whirls
I was going to ask (as many have) - what is your actual question? Or what is it that you see as issues?
But then you made this comment:
And I guess I don't need to ask anymore.
Yet another reason that Airline flying doesn't rock my boat.
KC
I was going to ask (as many have) - what is your actual question? Or what is it that you see as issues?
But then you made this comment:
Maybe I just had bad luck in flying with female copilots who were not properly qualified.
Yet another reason that Airline flying doesn't rock my boat.
KC
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I can identify one significant problem with a mixed sex crew complement in a multi-crew environment, and that is that if a crew member finds a mixed crew to be a problem to himself or herself, they should consider work elsewhere. If they wish to keep flying, perhaps single pilot operations might be a suitable alternative.
The same thoughts extend to differing sexual preferences, race, religion, etc. in the cockpit.
It's an entirely different issue if a mixed crew results in under qualified people being awarded jobs pursuant to filling a politically correct "quota", or national pride puts similarly under qualified nationals in the cockpit to "balance" the numbers with expatriate crew.
Regards,
Old Smokey
The same thoughts extend to differing sexual preferences, race, religion, etc. in the cockpit.
It's an entirely different issue if a mixed crew results in under qualified people being awarded jobs pursuant to filling a politically correct "quota", or national pride puts similarly under qualified nationals in the cockpit to "balance" the numbers with expatriate crew.
Regards,
Old Smokey
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Hey 'Old Smokey'
Seems from your last para that you've flown for AAI for some period of your career!
I'll leave it at that...Oh, the stories...and I was there to see it!
Cheers...FD
Seems from your last para that you've flown for AAI for some period of your career!
I'll leave it at that...Oh, the stories...and I was there to see it!
Cheers...FD
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"If God would have wanted women to fly, the sky would be pink..."
No, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have... but it had to get out there...
Actually, all the female FO's I have flown with, have performed just fine, all up to standard, some better then others, some worse, but no substandard performance. Just as with the male ones.
I just tend to behave a little different, watching my mouth a little more, to not offend anyone. But that's MY problem, not theirs.
But I cannot confirm the smelling part after my last tour with a female FO...
Nic
No, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have... but it had to get out there...
Actually, all the female FO's I have flown with, have performed just fine, all up to standard, some better then others, some worse, but no substandard performance. Just as with the male ones.
I just tend to behave a little different, watching my mouth a little more, to not offend anyone. But that's MY problem, not theirs.
But I cannot confirm the smelling part after my last tour with a female FO...
Nic
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Sorry RvB, but I think you've come to the wrong conclusion by artificially tightening the specification of the problem.
It's definitely true that when certain men and certain women are made to work together, they don't do so particularly effectively. However, this merely an instance of a more general problem, namely that in some cases, two people of any gender/race/religion combination working together don't do so effectively.
The law of averages implies that there are cases where a woman got a flight crew job despite being less good than a man who was up for that job, either through a company desire to redress the gender balance or maybe even a lecherous senior captain making the decision. Similarly, it is inevitably true that there are blokes who got the job instead of a woman as a result of dodgy perceptions, the old-boys club or good old-fashioned chauvinism. It's the same in any industry - I've been lumbered with plenty of useless IT muppets of both genders over the years, for instance.
But it's not true that mixed gender flight crews are less good than single gender ones. It's entirely down to the individuals.
It's definitely true that when certain men and certain women are made to work together, they don't do so particularly effectively. However, this merely an instance of a more general problem, namely that in some cases, two people of any gender/race/religion combination working together don't do so effectively.
The law of averages implies that there are cases where a woman got a flight crew job despite being less good than a man who was up for that job, either through a company desire to redress the gender balance or maybe even a lecherous senior captain making the decision. Similarly, it is inevitably true that there are blokes who got the job instead of a woman as a result of dodgy perceptions, the old-boys club or good old-fashioned chauvinism. It's the same in any industry - I've been lumbered with plenty of useless IT muppets of both genders over the years, for instance.
But it's not true that mixed gender flight crews are less good than single gender ones. It's entirely down to the individuals.
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HPL
I used to teach Human Performance and Limitations, and I found it strange that no mention was ever made of women in regards to flying. We are not the same, and I personally think it would be appropriate to make some reference to the subject in the psychological aspects, if not the physical. I hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but we are restricted for example by pregnancy. The differences should maybe be addressed somewhere in HPL and/or CRM.
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but we are restricted for example by pregnancy
What differences actually need to be mentioned? On average, women are shorter and not as strong as men. Does this need to be pointed out on a course? Other physical differences? Well, er, I find a four-point harness uncomfortable. Psychological differences? Sorry, that comes under the category of generalisation; that's why it's never covered in HPL.
The issue that everyone is skirting round is the dreaded period and PMT. But what to say? Well, if affects women differently and there are no generalisations. Honestly, there aren't. Some women can get grumpy, some don't. But hey! we've all had a grumpy male colleague; what's their excuse!!!!!
Cheers
Whirls
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Good point Whirlygig! 
RvB, here's an example for you:
A few years ago, we had to train a mixed crew for a charter company. On the first day of sim training, the guy comes up and says to his female sim partner: "I have had very bad experiences flying with female pilots, so I would like you to know that if I get upset with you, it's nothing personal. Just bad experience."
The outcome of the week of sim training was that she had passed the course with flying colors, while he needed some extra work.
I am sorry to hear that you've had some bad experiences, but don't generalise.
Nowadays, the number of female pilots is still very small, which "causes" those bad experiences to startle you. I am sure, however, that you've had the same number (or even more) of questionable male pilots sitting next to you.
Regards,
TG
Maybe I just had bad luck in flying with female copilots who were not properly qualified.
A few years ago, we had to train a mixed crew for a charter company. On the first day of sim training, the guy comes up and says to his female sim partner: "I have had very bad experiences flying with female pilots, so I would like you to know that if I get upset with you, it's nothing personal. Just bad experience."
The outcome of the week of sim training was that she had passed the course with flying colors, while he needed some extra work.
I am sorry to hear that you've had some bad experiences, but don't generalise.
Nowadays, the number of female pilots is still very small, which "causes" those bad experiences to startle you. I am sure, however, that you've had the same number (or even more) of questionable male pilots sitting next to you.
Regards,
TG
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When I said that all women were restricted by pregnancy, I was referring to the letter that came with the first licence issued to every female saying that you must inform the CAA on confirmation of pregancy. Morning sickness could be an issue and there comes a point when you can no longer fly. There are also issues with cosmic radiation and pregnancy, and the gliding association has guidance to not fly above 5000 ft if pregnant. On the psychological front I was thinking of gender issues, which can arise. Whether this should be a problem or not, there have been issues in the past and no doubt will be in the future. In my opinion this is a valid topic of discussion in CRM courses, and in HPL too.
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However, it is a verboten subject. For certain reasons people are conditioned to be allergic to certain subjects regarding individuals equalty or not.
This said, it may be for the best seeing as the vast majority are simply pilots and any inputs would be apocryphal at best, "she pressed the button this way whilst all men do it the other way". In fairness, I sincerly doubt the pilot community has much to contribute to this unspeakable subject.
This said, it may be for the best seeing as the vast majority are simply pilots and any inputs would be apocryphal at best, "she pressed the button this way whilst all men do it the other way". In fairness, I sincerly doubt the pilot community has much to contribute to this unspeakable subject.