First Officer "assertiveness" versus Captain's "authority"???
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First Officer "assertiveness" versus Captain's "authority"???
As a First Officer you are expected to be assertive if the Captain is doing something unsafe......
But....
As a Captain you are legally in command and responsible for the aircraft.
This brings about a number of questions....
If you are a First Officer and a Captain is doing something you think is dangerous, how would YOU approach it? What if he/she carried on with the dangerous thing? Could you legally take control? Would you take control?
etc etc.....
Please can someone advise/discuss.....
Thanks.
But....
As a Captain you are legally in command and responsible for the aircraft.
This brings about a number of questions....
If you are a First Officer and a Captain is doing something you think is dangerous, how would YOU approach it? What if he/she carried on with the dangerous thing? Could you legally take control? Would you take control?
etc etc.....
Please can someone advise/discuss.....
Thanks.
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You would obviously say something to the guy, see what his thoughts are about what he is doing, if you can get an understanding then you can make an informed decision about what you are going to do at the time, if you deem it to be unsafe, tell him, see what his reaction is, I as a captain would have no problem if my FO questioned what I was doing especially if it was not standard. Taking control straight away before exploring the issues is quite an extreme action, however it depends on the phase of flight and how much time you have to act. If in doubt speak to a Captain you trust see what he thinks, take his advice, speak to a trainer if necessary. Hope this helps
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Actually it is perfectly clear cut.
The F/O is authorised, indeed required, to take whatever action is necessary to ensure the safety of the aircraft.
But, and it's a big BUT....
He has to be able to justify his action at the subsequent Inquiry.
He needs to be crystal clear on the grounds before taking the action.
Get it wrong and he loses his job and may be prosecuted BUT.... most pilots who have been there would say it is better to be alive and unemployed rather than the alternative.
As with everything in aviation, it helps to have some of this thought through before it happens.
The F/O is authorised, indeed required, to take whatever action is necessary to ensure the safety of the aircraft.
But, and it's a big BUT....
He has to be able to justify his action at the subsequent Inquiry.
He needs to be crystal clear on the grounds before taking the action.
Get it wrong and he loses his job and may be prosecuted BUT.... most pilots who have been there would say it is better to be alive and unemployed rather than the alternative.
As with everything in aviation, it helps to have some of this thought through before it happens.
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Albert
I am not sure that is correct, I Know that the company I work for would not do that and to be quite honest I do not know of any company that would. If, however there was an accident as a result of said action then it would be more complicated.
get it wrong and he loses his job and may be prosecuted
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Well it is a very dificult question if we don't know what phase of flight this is.
For landing, tell the captain to go-around. If he doesn't tell him again. If he then doesn't go around, take control of the aircraft and do it yourself. And get the tapes pulled on the ground.
A go-around might be expensive, but if there is enough fuel... its probably the safest course of action.
In other phases, ask him what he is doing!
For landing, tell the captain to go-around. If he doesn't tell him again. If he then doesn't go around, take control of the aircraft and do it yourself. And get the tapes pulled on the ground.
A go-around might be expensive, but if there is enough fuel... its probably the safest course of action.
In other phases, ask him what he is doing!
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I take it we're talking "in extremis" here, not merely a situation which is covered by standard operating procedures such as initiating a go-around or calling "Stop".
Captains have been known to suddenly lose the plot and do something quite irrational. The Concorde which landed with nearly dry tanks is a good example where the co-pilot was presented with just such a dilemma.
Of course the co-pilot will question the decision....but then what?
Captains have been known to suddenly lose the plot and do something quite irrational. The Concorde which landed with nearly dry tanks is a good example where the co-pilot was presented with just such a dilemma.
Of course the co-pilot will question the decision....but then what?
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Treat it like anything in life, if you saw someone in the street behaving irrationally you would ask yourself a few questions and come to a decision as to intervene or not, common sense should prevail and each situation weighed up. No two situations are the same and there is no golden answer.
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A go-around might be expensive
A go around is NOT expensive. A320/737 circuit is somewhere around 1800-2400 lbs of gas... (from the last possible second nearest the ground IOW most fuel used) It is not a cycle on the engines or anything else. so that makes it 3-400 gallons of gas.
To an airline that is CHUMP change, especially when weighed against the consequences of a mistake... Even in the A300-777 range of aircraft we were aren't talking about more than 700 gallons of gas or so.
NO one should even CONSIDER expense when contemplating a go around. I actually let an F/O go around twice and land the 3rd time. It was gusty windy in pouring rain, he called his own go arounds when he got uncomfortable before things got out of hand and he landed nice and safe the 3rd time.
On the debrief afterwards he asked "why I didn't take it?" I said he was doing fine and getting himself out of trouble...and next year he was going to be captain and then what would he do if it was windy or something else happened.
Said the same thing to the chief pilot after the flight attendants reported it. Chief said "Well done!" F/O in question has been an excellent captain for the last 6 years.
Moral of the story, GO arounds are cheap, and Good captain's should have "A wide strike zone" as long as it isn't unsafe...
Cheers
Wino
If we have something to thank Van Zanten for, it was the catalyst that started the CRM ball rolling. Of course in some Asian carriers the FO would still let the ac run into the ground.. but that's another story.
In Western culture, it is expected that any decision that the FO is unhappy with would be challenged overtly.
None of this "isn't that the ground commander?" (as said by one 727 FO who failed to initiate action before a CFIT)
I don't think this thread serves any purpose (perhaps 20 years ago) as in a Multi Crew environment in the 21st century most if not all the younger FO would I like to think be assertive enough to challenge any potential issue.
Eventually all Multi Crew pilots will have gone through CRM, and the old pre CRM dinosaurs will have retired. I think that in itself will reap major safety benefits.
In Western culture, it is expected that any decision that the FO is unhappy with would be challenged overtly.
None of this "isn't that the ground commander?" (as said by one 727 FO who failed to initiate action before a CFIT)
I don't think this thread serves any purpose (perhaps 20 years ago) as in a Multi Crew environment in the 21st century most if not all the younger FO would I like to think be assertive enough to challenge any potential issue.
Eventually all Multi Crew pilots will have gone through CRM, and the old pre CRM dinosaurs will have retired. I think that in itself will reap major safety benefits.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
A go-around might be expensive
The other aspect of the cockpit gradient not often considered is when it is completely flat - ie. Mate A and Mate B off for a day out together where nobody ever really takes command of the aircraft. Works fine for Ops normal, but when the flashing lights come on and the "whoop-whoops" start, it rapidly goes downhill. I don't know if it's more of a Military crew issue, where the Aircraft Captain may not always be the "ranking officer", or whether there are any laid back 4 ringers out there happy to sit back and let the Right seater run the show.
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I don't think this thread serves any purpose (perhaps 20 years ago) as in a Multi Crew environment in the 21st century most if not all the younger FO would I like to think be assertive enough to challenge any potential issue.
Dave, who's Profile states that he's a qualified airline pilot, posed the question : "What if he/she carried on with the dangerous thing?"
As I understand it, his question is not just about taking control, but taking Command. Challenge doesn't necessarily resolve a conflict, despite the impression often given by conventional CRM teaching.
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Firstly, if an FO said "go around" I would G/A then ask questions later. The chap sitting next to me is fully qualified, therefore I would like to think he called G/A for a good reason.
As for captains being unsafe, and whether to intervene. There are ways to do this, and ways not to.
I flew for just over 8 years before getting my command this year. I never had any captain that didn't listen to me. I always treated them with respect, and posed questions if I wasn't happy. If they couldn't justify what they were doing, then I generally was right. If they could, I was generally wrong (more often the case).
If you still aren't happy, keep going at him. It took me 4 attempts to get a captain to de-ice one time. In that case I had decided that I wouldn't operate if we didn't (obviously it never went that far).
As for captains being unsafe, and whether to intervene. There are ways to do this, and ways not to.
I flew for just over 8 years before getting my command this year. I never had any captain that didn't listen to me. I always treated them with respect, and posed questions if I wasn't happy. If they couldn't justify what they were doing, then I generally was right. If they could, I was generally wrong (more often the case).
If you still aren't happy, keep going at him. It took me 4 attempts to get a captain to de-ice one time. In that case I had decided that I wouldn't operate if we didn't (obviously it never went that far).
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So you're going into samos, its august, the wind is northerlyat 25 kts. The Capt has been checked out in various types in samos and has seen it all.Specific conditions clearly briefed. The FO with all the bells and whistles courtesy of daddy and 600 hrs. He calls a go around as you turn final on 09 at one mile/300feet. positive/negative gusts of 20kt etc,/ flap relief surf type thing going on but all fairly normal cat c samos with the switching winds. he screams go around as per his crm/fctm/touchy feely inexperienced out of depth background attitude..What do you do?
Me I land if i think im in the box and disregard his lack of experince induced , touch feely backed lack of judgement. Only gained by time on line. . I'm the captain I have the cat c qualification ..hard earned... he didint listen to the brief, didnt absorb the part c brief. ( he did find time to flirt with the girls for 4 hrstho) and panicked as he is in a Jet in the uk because hes rich and reasonably educated when he should be in a turbo prop accumilating experince and exposure to the myraid undefinable variances he will meet on his way to being able to make a genuine crm contribution.
ps : for "his" read "his /her"
Me I land if i think im in the box and disregard his lack of experince induced , touch feely backed lack of judgement. Only gained by time on line. . I'm the captain I have the cat c qualification ..hard earned... he didint listen to the brief, didnt absorb the part c brief. ( he did find time to flirt with the girls for 4 hrstho) and panicked as he is in a Jet in the uk because hes rich and reasonably educated when he should be in a turbo prop accumilating experince and exposure to the myraid undefinable variances he will meet on his way to being able to make a genuine crm contribution.
ps : for "his" read "his /her"
FF
Understand your frustration but did you ensure that the FO in question had fully comprehended the written brief for Samos and had you emphasised the probabliity of speed fluctuations/turbulenence etc in your verbal brieifng ? If so then your level of experience commensurate with the C qualification should be sufficient to overcome the FO's misgivings - trouble is from the position of a third party, what if you were making a cods of the approach - at what point would you have expected the FO to actually say something and if necessary call a go-round. It is the classic CRM dilemma which most of us have experienced - 'I know what I'm doing' but he/she does'nt because they have not got the experience to fully comprehend what is or what is not normal given a certain set of circumstances. I think that there is a problem in the industry with a certain number of low houred pilots who have found themselves in the rhs of large aircraft with little or no real experience of aircraft handling in their fledgling careers - its not their fault per se, daddy had paid for their licence and the ailrines have been eager to snap up cheap labour. They can have the greatest SOP's in the world but by definition they do not have the experience which perhaps would have be gained in smaller aircraft in a longer 'apprenticeship' before graduating to large jet aircraft. This is not a case of saying 'I had it tough, so should you...' more a case of pragmatism based upon a rather longer career.
Understand your frustration but did you ensure that the FO in question had fully comprehended the written brief for Samos and had you emphasised the probabliity of speed fluctuations/turbulenence etc in your verbal brieifng ? If so then your level of experience commensurate with the C qualification should be sufficient to overcome the FO's misgivings - trouble is from the position of a third party, what if you were making a cods of the approach - at what point would you have expected the FO to actually say something and if necessary call a go-round. It is the classic CRM dilemma which most of us have experienced - 'I know what I'm doing' but he/she does'nt because they have not got the experience to fully comprehend what is or what is not normal given a certain set of circumstances. I think that there is a problem in the industry with a certain number of low houred pilots who have found themselves in the rhs of large aircraft with little or no real experience of aircraft handling in their fledgling careers - its not their fault per se, daddy had paid for their licence and the ailrines have been eager to snap up cheap labour. They can have the greatest SOP's in the world but by definition they do not have the experience which perhaps would have be gained in smaller aircraft in a longer 'apprenticeship' before graduating to large jet aircraft. This is not a case of saying 'I had it tough, so should you...' more a case of pragmatism based upon a rather longer career.
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@ two's-in
sounds really cool if you quote like that. But you should have read the rest of my post as well.
I clearly stated that it is often the safest way to go-around. As long as you have enough fuel offcourse..........or your not on fire
As said before there is no single answer. But I guess that's why we get paid.
@ FF
Most FO's will know their manuals/ airfield briefs etc...
You should brief it and make sure he understands it (maybe an interactive brief?) Maybe you just briefed too quickly in all your godly experience and he just said yes because he could not follow you.
And if this is a problem which constantly happens at cat c airfields you should confront the company. And make sure they also qualify the f/o's as cat c. And if the company doesn't listen maybe a couple of go-arounds will get their attention.
I hope you don't meet the f/o who gets the tapes pulled and files an asr against you for not going around when he called for it.
sounds really cool if you quote like that. But you should have read the rest of my post as well.
I clearly stated that it is often the safest way to go-around. As long as you have enough fuel offcourse..........or your not on fire
As said before there is no single answer. But I guess that's why we get paid.
@ FF
Most FO's will know their manuals/ airfield briefs etc...
You should brief it and make sure he understands it (maybe an interactive brief?) Maybe you just briefed too quickly in all your godly experience and he just said yes because he could not follow you.And if this is a problem which constantly happens at cat c airfields you should confront the company. And make sure they also qualify the f/o's as cat c. And if the company doesn't listen maybe a couple of go-arounds will get their attention.
I hope you don't meet the f/o who gets the tapes pulled and files an asr against you for not going around when he called for it.
Last edited by flash2002; 29th Jun 2007 at 11:11.
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Loking at your other posts ou are quite clearly an f/o with a chip about your position. You'll make a lovely Captain someday and lets see then if your utopian ideals survive the upgrade. I'll wager they dont . If you have done Human peformance youll remember the bit about how different personalities dont transsition too well. might be worth a re-read.
Your simplistic retort about the goings on at cat c airfields and going around to make apoint betrays your lack of exposure to A the airfield in question and B the sizeable percentage of arrogant little twerps who confuse wealth for talent and knowledge. Im confident in my management, crm and flying skills and decision making that if it came to the scenario you paint I would welcome the asr to highlight the hypothetical failings of a colleague. That is to say after 12000 command hours I have had no complaints as to my interpersonal or professional interaction or decision making. So bring it on.
I hope you get an upgrade soon.
Be safe
PS Aplogies in advance to the many many low hr talented cadets i have also flown with. This arguement doesnt extend to you all. A generalisation that the good ones will recognise.
Your simplistic retort about the goings on at cat c airfields and going around to make apoint betrays your lack of exposure to A the airfield in question and B the sizeable percentage of arrogant little twerps who confuse wealth for talent and knowledge. Im confident in my management, crm and flying skills and decision making that if it came to the scenario you paint I would welcome the asr to highlight the hypothetical failings of a colleague. That is to say after 12000 command hours I have had no complaints as to my interpersonal or professional interaction or decision making. So bring it on.
I hope you get an upgrade soon.
Be safe
PS Aplogies in advance to the many many low hr talented cadets i have also flown with. This arguement doesnt extend to you all. A generalisation that the good ones will recognise.