How to do if your Captain is drunk?
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If anyone on the flight deck or cabin crew smells of alcohol I would be willing to put money on the fact that they are holding >20 promille in their blood stream i.e. over the CAA/JAR limit.
This equates to a reading of 0.01 on a breath tester (e.g. Lion as used by the police). The UK drink drive limit is 80 promille (0.035 on a breath tester). Now being a seller of Alcohol testing equipment to persons in the industry it's pretty hard to smell of Alcohol with a reading of 0.01. This I know because I have had to test the product we sell extensively - opened my eyes I can tell you, in my 30's and scared the life out of me to think how many times I thought I was clear the morning after when clearly I hadn't been - not any more though now for the blatant advertising, the product we sell is here www.know4sure.co.uk
Regards
FS
This equates to a reading of 0.01 on a breath tester (e.g. Lion as used by the police). The UK drink drive limit is 80 promille (0.035 on a breath tester). Now being a seller of Alcohol testing equipment to persons in the industry it's pretty hard to smell of Alcohol with a reading of 0.01. This I know because I have had to test the product we sell extensively - opened my eyes I can tell you, in my 30's and scared the life out of me to think how many times I thought I was clear the morning after when clearly I hadn't been - not any more though now for the blatant advertising, the product we sell is here www.know4sure.co.uk
Regards
FS
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I know this isn't an ideal world, but why are we still putting crew under this sort of pressure? If you are a new F/O and flying with Capt. Bloggs who just happens to be no.1 on the seniority list this is an almost impossible situation. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
With this situation in mind, why does BALPA keep insisting on peer group monitoring? In this scenario, there is no peer group equality.
I for one would have no problem 'blowing into the bag' before duty, since I never have a drink the night before flying. It is just one of the things we have to accept as crew. Is there anything wrong with having a beer 12 hours before going flying? No of course not, but personally this career means more to me than a single drink, If you want to be sociable with your colleagues down route you can always have a soft drink so as not to run the risk.
Mind you at the end of a long hard day, a nice cold beer can be a god-send.
With this situation in mind, why does BALPA keep insisting on peer group monitoring? In this scenario, there is no peer group equality.
I for one would have no problem 'blowing into the bag' before duty, since I never have a drink the night before flying. It is just one of the things we have to accept as crew. Is there anything wrong with having a beer 12 hours before going flying? No of course not, but personally this career means more to me than a single drink, If you want to be sociable with your colleagues down route you can always have a soft drink so as not to run the risk.
Mind you at the end of a long hard day, a nice cold beer can be a god-send.
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What to do if your Captain is drunk?
Captain Stable
Safety ModBod
posted 31st March 2005 10:03
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“Personal opinion here...I would also like the issue of pilots flying fatigued to be similarly addressed. Most of the evidence points to fatigue being a far more urgent and prevalent problem than alcohol.”
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Couldn’t agree more. Hans Selye, the originator of the stress concept, said, “More harm has been done in society by intoxication by stress, than that of the alcoholic kind.” Fatigue is a stressor that opens the person up to further effects of stress, including coronary heart disease. How safe is that?
Who should address this Captain Stable? – the airlines? The Regulator(s)? JAA? But since when did they take the scientific evidence seriously?
Safety ModBod
posted 31st March 2005 10:03
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“Personal opinion here...I would also like the issue of pilots flying fatigued to be similarly addressed. Most of the evidence points to fatigue being a far more urgent and prevalent problem than alcohol.”
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Couldn’t agree more. Hans Selye, the originator of the stress concept, said, “More harm has been done in society by intoxication by stress, than that of the alcoholic kind.” Fatigue is a stressor that opens the person up to further effects of stress, including coronary heart disease. How safe is that?
Who should address this Captain Stable? – the airlines? The Regulator(s)? JAA? But since when did they take the scientific evidence seriously?
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Very good question, Gorgophone.
The regulators won't take action until there is an accident in which the prime cause points specifically and unequivocally at stress. And even then it is simpler to call it "pilot error".
The airlines won't take action because it is easy for them to address alcohol as a problem - they just install a system of checking pilots' breath before flying. Fatigue is something they really don't want to address, as the only real method of combatting it is to impose harsher limits on pilots' duty hours, thus ensuring they get less work out of each pilot, and less flexibility about how they roster.
Pilots as individuals can do very little at all.
I suspect that this is down to the unions - BALPA, IFALPA, IALPA, VNV etc. The problem with that is that it will be painted in the press by everyone (specifically the more right-wing press, but also pointed that way by the employers) as overpaid, molly-coddled prima donna pilots wanting to work less for more pay.
Perhaps governments, IATA and ICAO should take a lead in this? But they only take action when the regulators advise that action is needed. And the most recent work within the EU on pilot hours would actually have resulted in pilots working more rather than less, resulting in an increase in fatigue.
The regulators won't take action until there is an accident in which the prime cause points specifically and unequivocally at stress. And even then it is simpler to call it "pilot error".
The airlines won't take action because it is easy for them to address alcohol as a problem - they just install a system of checking pilots' breath before flying. Fatigue is something they really don't want to address, as the only real method of combatting it is to impose harsher limits on pilots' duty hours, thus ensuring they get less work out of each pilot, and less flexibility about how they roster.
Pilots as individuals can do very little at all.
I suspect that this is down to the unions - BALPA, IFALPA, IALPA, VNV etc. The problem with that is that it will be painted in the press by everyone (specifically the more right-wing press, but also pointed that way by the employers) as overpaid, molly-coddled prima donna pilots wanting to work less for more pay.
Perhaps governments, IATA and ICAO should take a lead in this? But they only take action when the regulators advise that action is needed. And the most recent work within the EU on pilot hours would actually have resulted in pilots working more rather than less, resulting in an increase in fatigue.
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OK Captain Stable
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“I suspect that this is down to the unions - BALPA, IFALPA, IALPA, VNV etc.”
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BALPA are, surprisingly, not interested in pursuing this one! Perhaps they feel that the Flight Time Limitations campaign is enough. I don’t think so. Come on BALPA pull your socks up!
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“The problem with that is that it will be painted in the press by everyone (specifically the more right-wing press, but also pointed that way by the employers) as overpaid, molly-coddled prima donna pilots wanting to work less for more pay.”
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So what you are saying is that pilots should embark on a public relations task? Let ppruners publish on this website, from personal knowledge, any deaths in service – of pilots, from whatever cause. Then there will be ammunition with which to counter the criticisms you rightly point out.
Also what has appeared in the press. For instance, FAA Harassed Pilot of Fatal CJ Crash (www.flyingmag.com) Missouri pilot Joseph BRINELL harassed by the FAA…who had “abused their authority” (see Aftermath, November 2001) His worries cause lack of sleep and is quoted by his widow as being a cause of the crash.
And perhaps you can get maxalt who posted 6th April 2005 22:02 to tell us what he was talking about – give us the references for the four Cardiac arrests to which he referred.
Remember that a ‘death a work’ does not mean that the event happened in the work setting; it could also happen at home but have causal links.
I don’t mean to be morbid but if your reasoning is correct, then this is the answer.
Anyway, I thought safety was meant to be considered proactively, not after some devastating event?
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“I suspect that this is down to the unions - BALPA, IFALPA, IALPA, VNV etc.”
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BALPA are, surprisingly, not interested in pursuing this one! Perhaps they feel that the Flight Time Limitations campaign is enough. I don’t think so. Come on BALPA pull your socks up!
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“The problem with that is that it will be painted in the press by everyone (specifically the more right-wing press, but also pointed that way by the employers) as overpaid, molly-coddled prima donna pilots wanting to work less for more pay.”
-----------------------------------
So what you are saying is that pilots should embark on a public relations task? Let ppruners publish on this website, from personal knowledge, any deaths in service – of pilots, from whatever cause. Then there will be ammunition with which to counter the criticisms you rightly point out.
Also what has appeared in the press. For instance, FAA Harassed Pilot of Fatal CJ Crash (www.flyingmag.com) Missouri pilot Joseph BRINELL harassed by the FAA…who had “abused their authority” (see Aftermath, November 2001) His worries cause lack of sleep and is quoted by his widow as being a cause of the crash.
And perhaps you can get maxalt who posted 6th April 2005 22:02 to tell us what he was talking about – give us the references for the four Cardiac arrests to which he referred.
Remember that a ‘death a work’ does not mean that the event happened in the work setting; it could also happen at home but have causal links.
I don’t mean to be morbid but if your reasoning is correct, then this is the answer.
Anyway, I thought safety was meant to be considered proactively, not after some devastating event?
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So what you are saying is that pilots should embark on a public relations task?
And while we should most certainly be proactive about safety, when addressing any issue you also need to be aware that people will then say "If this hasn't been a problem up to now, why bother doing anything about it?". So we need to be able to point to fatigue-related accidents and incidents. Further, in contrast, we challenge the authorities to demonstrate any accident or incident that was alcohol-related.
Captain Stable- I always look forward to your comments, among certain others'.
When my wife and I were engaged, she was hospitalized and diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. Having a very high blood sugar before diagnosis, whether as type 1 or 2 diabetic, creates serious problems, but the complexity of life with type 1 is often caused by a low blood sugar because of the unpredictable results of taking synthetic insulin. By the way, instead of two injections or so per day, the insulin pump does an even better job by its small automatic injections of short-term insulin, without the difficult-to-predict complications of also having long-term insulin in one's body for hours.
If a crewmember appears to have consumed alcohol, and not cough medicine etc and you have any concern at all, not just for the safety of flight but for the person's career and the well-being of his/her family (along with your company's image in the eyes of the media...and your own...), force them to call in sick and disappear quietly to their home, or a hotel. If you are fortunate enough to have a union, because no other association or corporate/government entity supports the piloting profession, and never will, call a union representative immediately. Except among certain trained fellow pilots, say absolutely nothing except that the person became ill, and never say a word to any media representative without your company's approval. If your company has no union (or a limp-wristed group, union in name only...), are there no pilots who are trained to probe and intervene, based upon fellow pilots' concerns, long before it comes down to a very awkward and stressful 'showdown at high noon'? Neither Clint Eastwood, John Wayne nor Sigorney Weaver will be there to help. The pilot's career will almost certainly self-destruct. How about his wife, possibly young daughter or son who look up to him/her?
If alcohol abuse had been understood to be a disease in past times, instead of a character flaw, as judged by society, many more people could have been treated and there would have been much less need to hide the problem-these people had little choice. Never mind the many people killed on the roads, or on the water.
There appear to be many on Pprune who are still ignorant of the scientifically proven fact that chemical abuse is a disease. They probably also believe in air pockets, that we simply push buttons with no difficult planning nor decision-making, and that our companies are committed to us, see us as valuable assets (and constantly solicit our advice on operational matters...), instead of as "the unwashed", only financial liabilities on cost accounting reports .
When my wife and I were engaged, she was hospitalized and diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. Having a very high blood sugar before diagnosis, whether as type 1 or 2 diabetic, creates serious problems, but the complexity of life with type 1 is often caused by a low blood sugar because of the unpredictable results of taking synthetic insulin. By the way, instead of two injections or so per day, the insulin pump does an even better job by its small automatic injections of short-term insulin, without the difficult-to-predict complications of also having long-term insulin in one's body for hours.
If a crewmember appears to have consumed alcohol, and not cough medicine etc and you have any concern at all, not just for the safety of flight but for the person's career and the well-being of his/her family (along with your company's image in the eyes of the media...and your own...), force them to call in sick and disappear quietly to their home, or a hotel. If you are fortunate enough to have a union, because no other association or corporate/government entity supports the piloting profession, and never will, call a union representative immediately. Except among certain trained fellow pilots, say absolutely nothing except that the person became ill, and never say a word to any media representative without your company's approval. If your company has no union (or a limp-wristed group, union in name only...), are there no pilots who are trained to probe and intervene, based upon fellow pilots' concerns, long before it comes down to a very awkward and stressful 'showdown at high noon'? Neither Clint Eastwood, John Wayne nor Sigorney Weaver will be there to help. The pilot's career will almost certainly self-destruct. How about his wife, possibly young daughter or son who look up to him/her?
If alcohol abuse had been understood to be a disease in past times, instead of a character flaw, as judged by society, many more people could have been treated and there would have been much less need to hide the problem-these people had little choice. Never mind the many people killed on the roads, or on the water.
There appear to be many on Pprune who are still ignorant of the scientifically proven fact that chemical abuse is a disease. They probably also believe in air pockets, that we simply push buttons with no difficult planning nor decision-making, and that our companies are committed to us, see us as valuable assets (and constantly solicit our advice on operational matters...), instead of as "the unwashed", only financial liabilities on cost accounting reports .
Last edited by Ignition Override; 20th Apr 2005 at 06:12.
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...if your captain is drunk?
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“There appear to be many on Pprune who are still ignorant of the scientifically proven fact that chemical abuse is a disease.” Ignition Override
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Further to this, as a health specialist, I’d say that such a reliance on chemicals indicates their possible use as a coping mechanism – a reaction to stressors. If an airline finds that it has a preponderance of drunken pilots I would suggest that the airline looks at what it is doing wrong in terms of management. Such stress is called ‘organizational stress’ and one wonders how airlines can get away with this neglect of duty of care.
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"If this hasn't been a problem up to now, why bother doing anything about it?". So we need to be able to point to fatigue-related accidents and incidents. Further, in contrast, we challenge the authorities to demonstrate any accident or incident that was alcohol-related.”Capt Stable
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Both of these comments demonstrate an attitude within the aviation industry. I think I am correct in saying that it is alone in NOT using evidence-based practice. In no other profession can managers get away with making statements based on wild guesses as if they were speaking from knowledge. And this is not the only example.
If I were faced with “…this hasn’t been a problem up til now…” I’d ask for the up-to-date scientific evidence to substantiate such a view. How would such a person KNOW that there hadn’t been “a problem?” Do they have the qualifications to evaluate ‘problems’? What counts as a “problem”? Here we can range from full hull losses, through ‘incidents’, to stats on sickness, then deaths in service. If a person indicates that there hasn’t been a problem then I take it they must be an expert in all these fields and has the information at their fingertips! My argument only covers the health aspect of flying. If I were a lawyer (and I’m not) my response to “.. this hasn’t been a problem up to now…” might be in like vein: how many breaches of air laws are currently happening? If you don’t know the answer to that then the question is empty foolishness.
Being proactive about safety – the safety system – is what has been working thus far. “..this hasn’t been a problem up to now..” demonstrates a person who is ignorant of what a safety system is and why it should be in place proactively.
Such avoidance behaviour needs to be challenged with, “What’s your evidence that there isn’t a problem?” If pilots are reporting problems to management who dismiss them, that in itself demonstrates ‘artillery on the field of battle’. The battle has already begun!
So, information on fatigue-related accidents and incidents does seem to be a good place to start. (Thank you Captain Stable) To continue the military theme that seems to have developed in this thread, these are the walking-wounded – these are the evidence that problems exist. So let us Campaign.
As usual I end with a question! While CHIRPs might record fatigue-related accidents and incidents it is not ‘scientific’ in the sense that it chooses which reports to use and discards others. Does anyone know of any study that collates scientific, up-to-date information on fatigue-related accidents and incidents?
Quote
“There appear to be many on Pprune who are still ignorant of the scientifically proven fact that chemical abuse is a disease.” Ignition Override
---------------------------------------------
Further to this, as a health specialist, I’d say that such a reliance on chemicals indicates their possible use as a coping mechanism – a reaction to stressors. If an airline finds that it has a preponderance of drunken pilots I would suggest that the airline looks at what it is doing wrong in terms of management. Such stress is called ‘organizational stress’ and one wonders how airlines can get away with this neglect of duty of care.
---------------------------------------
Quote
"If this hasn't been a problem up to now, why bother doing anything about it?". So we need to be able to point to fatigue-related accidents and incidents. Further, in contrast, we challenge the authorities to demonstrate any accident or incident that was alcohol-related.”Capt Stable
---------------------------------------------------
Both of these comments demonstrate an attitude within the aviation industry. I think I am correct in saying that it is alone in NOT using evidence-based practice. In no other profession can managers get away with making statements based on wild guesses as if they were speaking from knowledge. And this is not the only example.
If I were faced with “…this hasn’t been a problem up til now…” I’d ask for the up-to-date scientific evidence to substantiate such a view. How would such a person KNOW that there hadn’t been “a problem?” Do they have the qualifications to evaluate ‘problems’? What counts as a “problem”? Here we can range from full hull losses, through ‘incidents’, to stats on sickness, then deaths in service. If a person indicates that there hasn’t been a problem then I take it they must be an expert in all these fields and has the information at their fingertips! My argument only covers the health aspect of flying. If I were a lawyer (and I’m not) my response to “.. this hasn’t been a problem up to now…” might be in like vein: how many breaches of air laws are currently happening? If you don’t know the answer to that then the question is empty foolishness.
Being proactive about safety – the safety system – is what has been working thus far. “..this hasn’t been a problem up to now..” demonstrates a person who is ignorant of what a safety system is and why it should be in place proactively.
Such avoidance behaviour needs to be challenged with, “What’s your evidence that there isn’t a problem?” If pilots are reporting problems to management who dismiss them, that in itself demonstrates ‘artillery on the field of battle’. The battle has already begun!
So, information on fatigue-related accidents and incidents does seem to be a good place to start. (Thank you Captain Stable) To continue the military theme that seems to have developed in this thread, these are the walking-wounded – these are the evidence that problems exist. So let us Campaign.
As usual I end with a question! While CHIRPs might record fatigue-related accidents and incidents it is not ‘scientific’ in the sense that it chooses which reports to use and discards others. Does anyone know of any study that collates scientific, up-to-date information on fatigue-related accidents and incidents?
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Very good points on evidence-based practice. The aviation industry tends to get very smug about managing to dispense with a culture of blame, with progress on CRM etc., but tends to forget that much of the change over the last thirty years or so has been carried out in spite of the operators, not because of them, and that evidence-based practice is sadly very lacking.
An article in "The Sun" or a "documentary" on Channel 4 by a journalist who doesn't really understand the issues is not evidence, but the politicians tend to act as if they were.
There is also, sadly, a culture of blame within the pilot fraternity when it comes to drink. We see plenty of comments on PPRuNe when a pilot is discovered to be (or accused of being) over the limit along the lines of "Serve him right - his behaviour reflects on us all - throw the book at him - pull his licence - why didn't his F/O shop him..." etc. without people knowing the facts surrounding each case. Such pilots know perfectly well the penalties for drinking. Yet why do they do it? A reaction to stress? Coping with fatigue? Driven to it by political machinations within the company? All sorts of possible factors there. Alcoholism is not a cause of accidents (I would suggest). It is a symptom of other problems which need to be addressed.
I do not suggest that an alcoholic pilot should be permitted to continue flying. But if you penalise him instead of understanding what the problem is, you push others suffering the same problems into hiding it. And a hidden problem cannot be addressed. Problems only become manageable when they are visible.
An article in "The Sun" or a "documentary" on Channel 4 by a journalist who doesn't really understand the issues is not evidence, but the politicians tend to act as if they were.
There is also, sadly, a culture of blame within the pilot fraternity when it comes to drink. We see plenty of comments on PPRuNe when a pilot is discovered to be (or accused of being) over the limit along the lines of "Serve him right - his behaviour reflects on us all - throw the book at him - pull his licence - why didn't his F/O shop him..." etc. without people knowing the facts surrounding each case. Such pilots know perfectly well the penalties for drinking. Yet why do they do it? A reaction to stress? Coping with fatigue? Driven to it by political machinations within the company? All sorts of possible factors there. Alcoholism is not a cause of accidents (I would suggest). It is a symptom of other problems which need to be addressed.
I do not suggest that an alcoholic pilot should be permitted to continue flying. But if you penalise him instead of understanding what the problem is, you push others suffering the same problems into hiding it. And a hidden problem cannot be addressed. Problems only become manageable when they are visible.
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What to do if your Captain is drunk?
‘Preliminary Study Confirms that Pilots Die at Younger Age Than General Population’ Evidence indicates that mortality is higher immediately after retirement and loss-of-license disability claims are linked to specific age-related causes say actuaries Ibrahim E. Muhanna, Chief Executive Officer and Actuary, OmniLife Overseas Insurance Co and Andreas Shakallis, Assistant Actuary ie Muhanna & Co. (1992)
While deaths in the general population increases slightly as age advances, among pilots there is a sudden and high peak around ages 55 –59.
Of course among the ‘complacent brigade’ will be a minority with power, who will say that this may come from the effects of flying and that’s your choice. This may be partly true – some airlines won’t allow pilots to fly over the north pole because of the health risks – but a proactive, health and safety conscious airline will also have its eye on the detrimental health effects of bullying, harassment, and intimidation as management strategies. They kill. I say this on good authority, “the strongest correlation between disability and age appeared in the psychiatric category. This suggests that stress and other psychological factors significantly affect pilot health with advancing age.” This statement is based on scientific evidence, not hearsay.
If an airline has an undue preponderence of drunken pilots I would draw the conclusion that stress and subsequent coping mechanisms ie alcoholism, are being demonstrated. It is a testimony to poor management. However, it is the pilot who will be penalized - it is the never the bully that pays.
Going back to a former post (Captain Stable) when I asked who should address the problems of stress and alcoholism you said, “the problem with that is that it will be painted in the press by everyone (specifically the more right-wing press, but also pointed that way by the employers) as overpaid, molly-coddled prima donna pilots wanting to work less for more pay.” This actuarial, evidence-based information refutes that.
What is the regulator doing about this? Despite criticism from the House of Lords Select Committee Fifth Report 2000 for its “woeful neglect” of aircrew health and its inertia, it still demonstrates the same old habit of ignoring urgent aircrew health issues. Unions came in for similar criticism in the same report.
Does your airline have an anti-bullying strategy in place? If not, what are your unions doing about that? It is no use blaming the Captain for being an alcoholic when the working conditions make this condition foreseeable and preventable. The House of Lords Science and Technology Committee clearly blames the airlines, the regulators and the unions.
While deaths in the general population increases slightly as age advances, among pilots there is a sudden and high peak around ages 55 –59.
Of course among the ‘complacent brigade’ will be a minority with power, who will say that this may come from the effects of flying and that’s your choice. This may be partly true – some airlines won’t allow pilots to fly over the north pole because of the health risks – but a proactive, health and safety conscious airline will also have its eye on the detrimental health effects of bullying, harassment, and intimidation as management strategies. They kill. I say this on good authority, “the strongest correlation between disability and age appeared in the psychiatric category. This suggests that stress and other psychological factors significantly affect pilot health with advancing age.” This statement is based on scientific evidence, not hearsay.
If an airline has an undue preponderence of drunken pilots I would draw the conclusion that stress and subsequent coping mechanisms ie alcoholism, are being demonstrated. It is a testimony to poor management. However, it is the pilot who will be penalized - it is the never the bully that pays.
Going back to a former post (Captain Stable) when I asked who should address the problems of stress and alcoholism you said, “the problem with that is that it will be painted in the press by everyone (specifically the more right-wing press, but also pointed that way by the employers) as overpaid, molly-coddled prima donna pilots wanting to work less for more pay.” This actuarial, evidence-based information refutes that.
What is the regulator doing about this? Despite criticism from the House of Lords Select Committee Fifth Report 2000 for its “woeful neglect” of aircrew health and its inertia, it still demonstrates the same old habit of ignoring urgent aircrew health issues. Unions came in for similar criticism in the same report.
Does your airline have an anti-bullying strategy in place? If not, what are your unions doing about that? It is no use blaming the Captain for being an alcoholic when the working conditions make this condition foreseeable and preventable. The House of Lords Science and Technology Committee clearly blames the airlines, the regulators and the unions.
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Flight crew should be happy to submit to random tests for alcohol. This could be done discretely at sign-on or by a visitor to the cockpit. Company policy should be that when a crew is tested positive by preliminary test they must cease duties for the day and submit to a blood test within a prescribed time. Of course this leads to the fundamental issue of trust between the company and its employees. For this reason the basis for the test should be founded upon the insistance by the public that they be done. The best way to do this is to lobby government to enact legislation requiring the tests to be done before each flight.
As for the pre-departure alcohol-on-the-breath situation, the 180 passengers behind you will be expecting you to make an assertive decision in the interests of safety.
As for the pre-departure alcohol-on-the-breath situation, the 180 passengers behind you will be expecting you to make an assertive decision in the interests of safety.
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"Of course this leads to the fundamental issue of trust between the company and its employees."
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You haven't been listening! There is no trust between company and pilots. The answer isn't to legislate against pilots; it is to make airlines and regulators do their job properly in the first place and obey current legislation themselves. Then fatigue and coping mechanisms such as alcohol will be reduced.
Sideloader started this thread with, "You just got a brand new job as an F/O flying a big iron, the airplane is loaded and ready to go , and your captain's breath smells of alcohol. What do you do?." Several responses gave good practical advice. Others picked up on health concerns. Your response does nothing to address what is fundamentally wrong - management neglect of duty of care and abuse of health and safety guidelines.
Anyway, how exactly do you propose to quantify "insistence by the public"? As far as I can tell the public has respect for pilots - despite the well publicized breaches of bottle to throttle rules. I note you don't mind pilots flying while fatigued - NOW THAT IS something over which the American public has demonstrated concern.
"Of course this leads to the fundamental issue of trust between the company and its employees."
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You haven't been listening! There is no trust between company and pilots. The answer isn't to legislate against pilots; it is to make airlines and regulators do their job properly in the first place and obey current legislation themselves. Then fatigue and coping mechanisms such as alcohol will be reduced.
Sideloader started this thread with, "You just got a brand new job as an F/O flying a big iron, the airplane is loaded and ready to go , and your captain's breath smells of alcohol. What do you do?." Several responses gave good practical advice. Others picked up on health concerns. Your response does nothing to address what is fundamentally wrong - management neglect of duty of care and abuse of health and safety guidelines.
Anyway, how exactly do you propose to quantify "insistence by the public"? As far as I can tell the public has respect for pilots - despite the well publicized breaches of bottle to throttle rules. I note you don't mind pilots flying while fatigued - NOW THAT IS something over which the American public has demonstrated concern.
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Alcohol Night stops and aircraft operation.
An interesting subject,
Are we trying to reinvent the wheel,and ban alcohol, consumption from aviation.
First, is taxiying after landing classed as flying?
Or is take off en route and landing flying .
The point I make is that the World"s Favourite Airline condoned after landing drinks and when their pilots were on contract to other carriers continued the habit.
These cockpit drinks were delivered to the cockpit by the Cso or the purser when he/she declared cockpit secure for landing,
After landing checks completed clear of the runway the occupants not busy with nosewheel steering had a drink usually champagne and orange juice,or what ever else you wanted regardless of amount,three minatures was fairly standard,plus mixers.
On stand engines off apu on Pax disembarking, still sipping your drink fags lit in the ashtrays, handling agent and base eng on board got a drink as well,plus there was usually a carrier bag full left on the seat for other colleagues.
Were we drinking and flying?
Or were we drinking and operating an A/C?
Caa flt Ops inspectors did not only know about it,but enthusiastically took part, when they were operating crew.
Air France air crews were allowed a bottle of wine with their meal whilst airborne,perfectly legal,so there!
I dont recall any accidents or incidents caused by this gentlemanly behaviour!
Question are you a pilot do you have night stops, and do you drink at the bar with the rest of the crew ?
Do you then have dinner and some wine ?
Do you maybe have a wee one from the mini bar, to help you sleep or to party whatever.
How do you then know if you will be under the limit for tomorrows operation?
Horror of all horrors phone wrings ,Ops ,flight is now rescheduled and you are now reporting three hours earllier than original rostered
Now you are buggered with a fish fork, "but but but I didnt mean to drink and fly,"and whats more the whole crew are affected.
The 12 hour rule has gone you are rescheduled.
So Sanctimonius Shed Driver, you are now going to rip our licences into a million pieces are you.
Beware of rescheduling it wiil catch you out, it certainly caught me out.
So either dont drink at all, in the hotel or if at home get that bloody phone onplugged from the wall socket bloody.
I dont condone getting legless before a flight,but you can get caught out.
TOODLE PIP for know.
Ps Ive got nothing with model helicopter pilots,I keep crashing my Ripmax Robbie.
Are we trying to reinvent the wheel,and ban alcohol, consumption from aviation.
First, is taxiying after landing classed as flying?
Or is take off en route and landing flying .
The point I make is that the World"s Favourite Airline condoned after landing drinks and when their pilots were on contract to other carriers continued the habit.
These cockpit drinks were delivered to the cockpit by the Cso or the purser when he/she declared cockpit secure for landing,
After landing checks completed clear of the runway the occupants not busy with nosewheel steering had a drink usually champagne and orange juice,or what ever else you wanted regardless of amount,three minatures was fairly standard,plus mixers.
On stand engines off apu on Pax disembarking, still sipping your drink fags lit in the ashtrays, handling agent and base eng on board got a drink as well,plus there was usually a carrier bag full left on the seat for other colleagues.
Were we drinking and flying?
Or were we drinking and operating an A/C?
Caa flt Ops inspectors did not only know about it,but enthusiastically took part, when they were operating crew.
Air France air crews were allowed a bottle of wine with their meal whilst airborne,perfectly legal,so there!
I dont recall any accidents or incidents caused by this gentlemanly behaviour!
Question are you a pilot do you have night stops, and do you drink at the bar with the rest of the crew ?
Do you then have dinner and some wine ?
Do you maybe have a wee one from the mini bar, to help you sleep or to party whatever.
How do you then know if you will be under the limit for tomorrows operation?
Horror of all horrors phone wrings ,Ops ,flight is now rescheduled and you are now reporting three hours earllier than original rostered
Now you are buggered with a fish fork, "but but but I didnt mean to drink and fly,"and whats more the whole crew are affected.
The 12 hour rule has gone you are rescheduled.
So Sanctimonius Shed Driver, you are now going to rip our licences into a million pieces are you.
Beware of rescheduling it wiil catch you out, it certainly caught me out.
So either dont drink at all, in the hotel or if at home get that bloody phone onplugged from the wall socket bloody.
I dont condone getting legless before a flight,but you can get caught out.
TOODLE PIP for know.
Ps Ive got nothing with model helicopter pilots,I keep crashing my Ripmax Robbie.
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I assume that I'm the 'Sanctimonius Shed Driver' so I'll respond in that vein.
Is taxiing counted as part of a flight? Of course it is, you log it don't you.
Does alchohol impair your judgement? Yes. Should you combine the two? I don't think so.
What may have been acceptable in the 'good old days' simply doesn't cut it. Were any incidents caused by drinking and taxiing? I have no idea. I wasn't in aviation then, but I wish I had been. I can think of nothing better than when having finished my duty, to sit and chill out with a beer, but we must all be aware of how those beers may effect you later.
I would never put myself in the position where if I get a call from Ops asking us to get to the a/c early, that I wouldn't be in a fit state because of having had a drink. Unfortunately nowadays we rarely get more than min rest anyway, so that severely limits the social possibilities straight away.
We all have a responsiblity to our pax and company to be fit to fly, if you aren't for medical reasons/fatigue that is one thing, but having a drink is something we control, so if you can't fly since you had too much in the bar, then I don't have a lot of sympathy.
If you are too fatigued to fly, that's when companies should be getting a kicking.
The old school mentality of drinking and flying being synonymous are to pilots of my generation (in their 20's) are out of date. I would never drink and drive, but many of my parents peers don't think twice about it. Does that make it acceptable? Not in my eyes.
In answer to your questions.
Question are you a pilot do you have night stops, and do you drink at the bar with the rest of the crew ?
Yes, I'll have a drink, usually non-alchoholic.
Do you then have dinner and some wine ?
No.
Do you maybe have a wee one from the mini bar, to help you sleep or to party whatever.
No, I have never found booze helps me to sleep.
How do you then know if you will be under the limit for tomorrows operation?
I do, since I know that I haven't consumed more than a beer at most and that at the bodies normal rate of digestion, all traces of that beer will be long gone by the time I report for duty.
I'm not trying to be holier than thou', but I do feel that boozing before flying is unacceptable and shouldn't really be tolerated. We are all adults and are responsible for our own actions and the conseqeunces thereof.
Is taxiing counted as part of a flight? Of course it is, you log it don't you.
Does alchohol impair your judgement? Yes. Should you combine the two? I don't think so.
What may have been acceptable in the 'good old days' simply doesn't cut it. Were any incidents caused by drinking and taxiing? I have no idea. I wasn't in aviation then, but I wish I had been. I can think of nothing better than when having finished my duty, to sit and chill out with a beer, but we must all be aware of how those beers may effect you later.
I would never put myself in the position where if I get a call from Ops asking us to get to the a/c early, that I wouldn't be in a fit state because of having had a drink. Unfortunately nowadays we rarely get more than min rest anyway, so that severely limits the social possibilities straight away.
We all have a responsiblity to our pax and company to be fit to fly, if you aren't for medical reasons/fatigue that is one thing, but having a drink is something we control, so if you can't fly since you had too much in the bar, then I don't have a lot of sympathy.
If you are too fatigued to fly, that's when companies should be getting a kicking.
The old school mentality of drinking and flying being synonymous are to pilots of my generation (in their 20's) are out of date. I would never drink and drive, but many of my parents peers don't think twice about it. Does that make it acceptable? Not in my eyes.
In answer to your questions.
Question are you a pilot do you have night stops, and do you drink at the bar with the rest of the crew ?
Yes, I'll have a drink, usually non-alchoholic.
Do you then have dinner and some wine ?
No.
Do you maybe have a wee one from the mini bar, to help you sleep or to party whatever.
No, I have never found booze helps me to sleep.
How do you then know if you will be under the limit for tomorrows operation?
I do, since I know that I haven't consumed more than a beer at most and that at the bodies normal rate of digestion, all traces of that beer will be long gone by the time I report for duty.
I'm not trying to be holier than thou', but I do feel that boozing before flying is unacceptable and shouldn't really be tolerated. We are all adults and are responsible for our own actions and the conseqeunces thereof.
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Ahh, a typical response from a know it all old-timer!
When was the last time you operated a sector?
I'm not sure what the relevance of what the size of a/c you fly is, anyway I'm not on the Shed anymore, but something slightly larger...... Why am I even bothering?
To be honest, this is a debate about alchohol and flying, if you can't be civil, then don't bother. I'd love to hear your thoughts on CRM you sound like just the sort who'd benefit from some.
p.s. It's spelt Qantas.
p.p.s The ink on my licences have been dry for nearly 10 years, again not that it's any of your business. Does that mean I'm not allowed an opinion?
No, I'm afraid I don't know who you are talking about.
When was the last time you operated a sector?I'm not sure what the relevance of what the size of a/c you fly is, anyway I'm not on the Shed anymore, but something slightly larger...... Why am I even bothering?
To be honest, this is a debate about alchohol and flying, if you can't be civil, then don't bother. I'd love to hear your thoughts on CRM you sound like just the sort who'd benefit from some.
p.s. It's spelt Qantas.
p.p.s The ink on my licences have been dry for nearly 10 years, again not that it's any of your business. Does that mean I'm not allowed an opinion?
No, I'm afraid I don't know who you are talking about.
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y; 26th Apr 2005 at 14:30.
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Hmm, if I understood any of that, then I might make a meaningful response, but since it's all gobble-de-gook I don't think I'll bother.
Why do I get the feeling that you've been on the sauce before typing here?
I hope you don't fly whilst in this state!
Why do I get the feeling that you've been on the sauce before typing here?
I hope you don't fly whilst in this state!