Those damned pedantic idiot captains
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Wonderful thread!
One wonders, HSWL, from reading in your posts, where you are in the training pipeline????
Within the training world the uphold of standard practices and good house keeping are paramount. The 'jolly old chap' who lets you cut corners is going to cut thousands off your bank account when the re-sits come. Training provides a baseline from which all are measured and the 'pedantic' (your word not mine) captain/instructor is the one who will keep you safe, correct and passing your type rating tests.
As a helo driver I am also crossing into the fixed wing world and loving it, haven't flown planks for 20 years and am highly thankful to all the 'pedantic' instructors who have recognised my helicopter traits and set me up on the correct path. Thanks to a 'pedantic' instructor/captain who picked up on my every mistake, I passed my fixed wing licenses first time.
Within the helo world I had many a Co/FO both younger and older, irrespective of their outlook/view we worked as a team because that is what is required to operate helos at low level in poor conditions. If you really have a problem then choose another career because you will be rostered with every type of person and if YOU have the chip on the shoulder they will come back with the same frostiness!!
Am I a pedantic captain? Yes. Do I require SOP from my co-pilot/FO at all times? Yes Do I get annoyed if the correct phraseology is not used? Yes. Why then? In the helicopter world we tend to operate very much more 'hands on' than our fixed wing bretheren, in much more inhospitable conditions. If the Co/FO cannot get the SOP correct in times of low stress/arousal levels how can I be sure that he will 1) Perform the correct actions, 2) In the correct order, 3) At the correct time. If for example the Co fires the extingusher on an engine fire before the aircraft has reached safe single engine speed, we are in deep s!!t. He learns, I live and keep my command!
Relax, live a little, learn alot
Edited due to forgetting something! Must be getting old, crouchy and pedantic!!!
One wonders, HSWL, from reading in your posts, where you are in the training pipeline????
Within the training world the uphold of standard practices and good house keeping are paramount. The 'jolly old chap' who lets you cut corners is going to cut thousands off your bank account when the re-sits come. Training provides a baseline from which all are measured and the 'pedantic' (your word not mine) captain/instructor is the one who will keep you safe, correct and passing your type rating tests.
As a helo driver I am also crossing into the fixed wing world and loving it, haven't flown planks for 20 years and am highly thankful to all the 'pedantic' instructors who have recognised my helicopter traits and set me up on the correct path. Thanks to a 'pedantic' instructor/captain who picked up on my every mistake, I passed my fixed wing licenses first time.
Within the helo world I had many a Co/FO both younger and older, irrespective of their outlook/view we worked as a team because that is what is required to operate helos at low level in poor conditions. If you really have a problem then choose another career because you will be rostered with every type of person and if YOU have the chip on the shoulder they will come back with the same frostiness!!
Am I a pedantic captain? Yes. Do I require SOP from my co-pilot/FO at all times? Yes Do I get annoyed if the correct phraseology is not used? Yes. Why then? In the helicopter world we tend to operate very much more 'hands on' than our fixed wing bretheren, in much more inhospitable conditions. If the Co/FO cannot get the SOP correct in times of low stress/arousal levels how can I be sure that he will 1) Perform the correct actions, 2) In the correct order, 3) At the correct time. If for example the Co fires the extingusher on an engine fire before the aircraft has reached safe single engine speed, we are in deep s!!t. He learns, I live and keep my command!
Relax, live a little, learn alot
Edited due to forgetting something! Must be getting old, crouchy and pedantic!!!
Last edited by Paul McKeksdown; 25th Jan 2005 at 07:46.
We have to remember that we are just PILOTS! What rank an airline gives us, makes no difference to the people we are. A t0sser in the left seat or right seat is still a t0sser. However pedanticism is in the eye of the beholder. I personally believe in SOPS. In my company I fly with someone new every week. However outside the scope of SOPS I believe that are many different ways of skinning a cat. Too many Captains like to influence the f/o in these areas. That I believe is what winds up most decent f/os.
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LH seat "idiots"
The LH seat "idiot" who advised you to keep your hand on the S/B lever in this very moment is may be correct
You have been operating flight controls and during this time the other pilot shoul operate MCP, FMC etc.
Further this is the core meaning of this rhitual- to prvent high roll rates during turn by quicly stowing interceptors should they fail in their diferential movement in initiation of the turn
You have been operating flight controls and during this time the other pilot shoul operate MCP, FMC etc.
Further this is the core meaning of this rhitual- to prvent high roll rates during turn by quicly stowing interceptors should they fail in their diferential movement in initiation of the turn
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HSWL
With your attitude I have no doubt you are destined to remain a "bolshi" F/O for a long time to come !!!
Gosh! it is time at least "half a GCSE" was required BEFORE folk were given pilot training!
Gosh! it is time at least "half a GCSE" was required BEFORE folk were given pilot training!
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I learned from you that to be a pedant and strictly disciplined in all areas of aircraft operation is essential for safety and efficiency, especially when you were pedantic that Standard Procedures won't cover all situations, and that flexibility is sometimes necessary
But the ability to abide pedantically by the company's SOP manual?Well,it might make you popular with some people but it wont help you one iota when the chips are down.
When things go from bad to worse,the very worst person you could have on board would be a pedant.maybe you should tip your hat a little more to those ordinary good guy Captains you mention that knew that what makes a pilot is good cognitive judgement and very little else.Next time when the checklist says land at the nearest airport and you're at 40W and need inspiration,spare a thought for those good guy Captains and try not to think of the others.
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Maybe what we are really striving for is "Situational Pedanticism" - the level of pedanticism is dependant upon the situation.
One should not be so pedantic to rigidly abide by "the rules" at ALL times, where there are times that SOP's and inbred mantra are followed religiously - this is where experience and airmanship comes in - a JUDGEMENT CALL - an EDUCATED JUDGEMENT CALL. And yet, there are times when SOP's and indoctrination MUST be followed to the T. Deciding the differentiator is experiential! The situation dictates to what degree.
I consider myself a "Flexible situational Pedant" - there are certain aspects that MUST be adhered to and considered, and there are certain aspects that can only be learnt through experience and general airmanship.
I'll fly as accurately as possible, in every instance, but that is not being pedantic - that's being a PILOT. Perfectionist, might even be a more apt word?
One should not be so pedantic to rigidly abide by "the rules" at ALL times, where there are times that SOP's and inbred mantra are followed religiously - this is where experience and airmanship comes in - a JUDGEMENT CALL - an EDUCATED JUDGEMENT CALL. And yet, there are times when SOP's and indoctrination MUST be followed to the T. Deciding the differentiator is experiential! The situation dictates to what degree.
I consider myself a "Flexible situational Pedant" - there are certain aspects that MUST be adhered to and considered, and there are certain aspects that can only be learnt through experience and general airmanship.
I'll fly as accurately as possible, in every instance, but that is not being pedantic - that's being a PILOT. Perfectionist, might even be a more apt word?
I'm trying hard to rise above all this, but can't resist...
Rananim
No. First of all, the pedant is more likely to have prevented things from going from bad to worse in the first place. Second, if the situation is covered by the rulebook (SOPs, legislation, manuals, etc) he's more likely to know the answer. Being a pedant, he will have studied their meaning very closely. Third, if the situation is not covered by the rulebook, then there is nothing to be pedantic about and he is just as likely as any other pilot to come up with the solution.
Just go back to page 1 and look at the scenario complained of. Insisting that the FOs hand stays where the SOP says it should means that the Capt is confident that his own hand movements will not be interfered with. A small thing, but hands clashing can have unexpected and serious consequences. Pedantry: Appropriate. Compare with major structural failure in the middle of nowhere. Pedantry: Inappropriate.
Rananim
When things go from bad to worse,the very worst person you could have on board would be a pedant.
Just go back to page 1 and look at the scenario complained of. Insisting that the FOs hand stays where the SOP says it should means that the Capt is confident that his own hand movements will not be interfered with. A small thing, but hands clashing can have unexpected and serious consequences. Pedantry: Appropriate. Compare with major structural failure in the middle of nowhere. Pedantry: Inappropriate.
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EXACTLY Keith! I think it is pretty much as I said - a situational pedanticism, but a certain predisposition to pedantry must be "inbred" in the first place.
It is the way I was taught, and the way I will always be. Pedantry does NOT equate to rigidity!
Every pedantic pilot I have met or flown with knew his/her stuff inside out, and was then capable of making an informed decision as a situation arose.
My pet peeve concerns pilots that decide to raise flaps / clean up after landing whilst still on the runway... that's when you need a cane!
It is the way I was taught, and the way I will always be. Pedantry does NOT equate to rigidity!
Every pedantic pilot I have met or flown with knew his/her stuff inside out, and was then capable of making an informed decision as a situation arose.
My pet peeve concerns pilots that decide to raise flaps / clean up after landing whilst still on the runway... that's when you need a cane!
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I am probably regarded by many people with whom I've flown as a pedant. No, I don't like flaps retracted on the runway either. I don't like the aircraft being climbed at anything different from best economic climb rate unless there is a good reason for it, and that has been stated. I thoroughly disapprove of non-standard R/T procedure (US pilots please copy) and bring people up on it. On a recent flight I had words with an FO who couldn't or wouldn't get out of the habit of replying to level clearances with "Recleared down to 120 for the ABC123". I told him (a) not to use the word "recleared"; (b) not to use words like "to" and "for" on the R/T, particularly when talking numbers; (c) we are not "THE" ABC123. Why say "It's the ABC123 for start" when you can just as easily say "ABC123 request start"?
Having said all that, I most particularly like to have a relaxed atmosphere on the flight deck. I became a pilot because I knew it would be a fun career - something my previous career most certainly WASN'T. I don't mind a bit of chat and jokes between us, ogling the female pax as they walk out, cutting briefs when we've flown together three sectors on the same route already today, provided everything is done and done correctly. And so what if your approach speed is a couple of knots too fast? There's pedantry and pedantry.
I guess it comes down to professionalism of attitude. If that professionalism isn't there, I get nervous and VERY pedantic.
Mistakes get made. It's why there are two of us up there. I don't point out his in order to score points, and I don't expect him to try to score points off me. I'll do my best to keep him out of the brown stuff, and expect him to do the same for me. If, as is most often the case, I am flying with someone with less than a tenth of my experience, I will try to give him helpful pointers, things I've learned from experience that they don't teach you on the courses (it's not all in the books). I'm not trying to come off as the gruff, wizened old codger who knows it all - I'm still learning. I learn something new every time I fly. If I didn't, I'd get very worried about my own attitude. I also get very worried about an FO who thinks he can't learn anything new from me (or anyone else).
Having said all that, I most particularly like to have a relaxed atmosphere on the flight deck. I became a pilot because I knew it would be a fun career - something my previous career most certainly WASN'T. I don't mind a bit of chat and jokes between us, ogling the female pax as they walk out, cutting briefs when we've flown together three sectors on the same route already today, provided everything is done and done correctly. And so what if your approach speed is a couple of knots too fast? There's pedantry and pedantry.
I guess it comes down to professionalism of attitude. If that professionalism isn't there, I get nervous and VERY pedantic.
Mistakes get made. It's why there are two of us up there. I don't point out his in order to score points, and I don't expect him to try to score points off me. I'll do my best to keep him out of the brown stuff, and expect him to do the same for me. If, as is most often the case, I am flying with someone with less than a tenth of my experience, I will try to give him helpful pointers, things I've learned from experience that they don't teach you on the courses (it's not all in the books). I'm not trying to come off as the gruff, wizened old codger who knows it all - I'm still learning. I learn something new every time I fly. If I didn't, I'd get very worried about my own attitude. I also get very worried about an FO who thinks he can't learn anything new from me (or anyone else).
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'I'm not trying to come off as the gruff, wizened old codger who knows it all - I'm still learning. I learn something new every time I fly. If I didn't, I'd get very worried about my own attitude. I also get very worried about an FO who thinks he can't learn anything new from me (or anyone else).'
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Thanks XX2SGR , at least one other person in the world has the same madcap ideas as me. Running a relaxed flight deck normally means the skipper has plenty of spare capacity , copes well with 'challenging' individuals , is patient , and most of all recognises his/her own limitations/fallibilities/bad days etc without resorting to OMB as an SOP.
Aviation is similar to most peoples life experiences , mostly good folk around but punctuated by the odd round-peg. How you get on in life is normally reflected in how you deal with such misfits. Despite the current fad with 'psychometrics' , the odd worm still manages to creep through the 'Swiss cheese' , and I personally think that the main part of an aspiring aviators interview should be conducted by a PILOT for a change.
Sometimes a copilot will comment on a 'difficult' Captain they have to fly with and I always point out that the usual reason for the said individuals lack of social skills allayed with criticism/interference/'flashing hands' etc is down to their own lack of belief in their own abilities. Difficulty in allowing the copilot to express themselves/command their own sector is a direct result of this syndrome.I try to point out that if they ( the copilot that is ) can learn to spot this and modify their reactions accordingly, they will often help to improve the atmosphere and form their own basis for when they move to the LHS themselves and have to fly with young , inexperienced co's.
Happy flying chaps
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Thanks XX2SGR , at least one other person in the world has the same madcap ideas as me. Running a relaxed flight deck normally means the skipper has plenty of spare capacity , copes well with 'challenging' individuals , is patient , and most of all recognises his/her own limitations/fallibilities/bad days etc without resorting to OMB as an SOP.
Aviation is similar to most peoples life experiences , mostly good folk around but punctuated by the odd round-peg. How you get on in life is normally reflected in how you deal with such misfits. Despite the current fad with 'psychometrics' , the odd worm still manages to creep through the 'Swiss cheese' , and I personally think that the main part of an aspiring aviators interview should be conducted by a PILOT for a change.
Sometimes a copilot will comment on a 'difficult' Captain they have to fly with and I always point out that the usual reason for the said individuals lack of social skills allayed with criticism/interference/'flashing hands' etc is down to their own lack of belief in their own abilities. Difficulty in allowing the copilot to express themselves/command their own sector is a direct result of this syndrome.I try to point out that if they ( the copilot that is ) can learn to spot this and modify their reactions accordingly, they will often help to improve the atmosphere and form their own basis for when they move to the LHS themselves and have to fly with young , inexperienced co's.
Happy flying chaps
Heard a good one from a friend of mine - retired BA Flt Eng.
First Officers linecheck on 747 Classic - good trip and all going well. In descent into wherever - FO who is handling is asked by ATC to maintain a specific rate of descent. FO selects vertical speed on the MCP and further selects required rate - Captain. not being checked but eager to maintain status quo in front of trainer b******s said First Officer for using his forefinger on the rate wheel. Training Captain says nothing but after shutdown enquires of Captain reason for criticism of FO - 'Ah, its says in the manual that VS selection is made by means of the 'thumbwheel' not a fingerwheel, he should have used his thumb not his finger' -trainer sighs, looks to the heavens and invites FO out for a beer - strangely the skipper was not invited...................
I guess BA is not like that anymore - unless of course you know different ?
First Officers linecheck on 747 Classic - good trip and all going well. In descent into wherever - FO who is handling is asked by ATC to maintain a specific rate of descent. FO selects vertical speed on the MCP and further selects required rate - Captain. not being checked but eager to maintain status quo in front of trainer b******s said First Officer for using his forefinger on the rate wheel. Training Captain says nothing but after shutdown enquires of Captain reason for criticism of FO - 'Ah, its says in the manual that VS selection is made by means of the 'thumbwheel' not a fingerwheel, he should have used his thumb not his finger' -trainer sighs, looks to the heavens and invites FO out for a beer - strangely the skipper was not invited...................
I guess BA is not like that anymore - unless of course you know different ?
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IMO, this ("keep your hand on the S/B") is a perfect example how to "operate" a crew - NOT.
If I treat my F/O like a child, IŽll have a child in the R/H seat.
CRM is not about staying with the book all the time, its how I get my Cockpit (and Cabin) to stay as close as possible to the book, using the highest possible level of teamwork - as we are all human and will deviate from the book because of emotion, health etc., no one can stay with the book 100% of the time.
If one deviates like in the e.g. I most probably would not have said anything at all, maybe after landing.
A gentle, calm, fair debriefing helps much more than building stress inflight with this kind of response the Capt used.
just my 2 cent....
If I treat my F/O like a child, IŽll have a child in the R/H seat.
CRM is not about staying with the book all the time, its how I get my Cockpit (and Cabin) to stay as close as possible to the book, using the highest possible level of teamwork - as we are all human and will deviate from the book because of emotion, health etc., no one can stay with the book 100% of the time.
If one deviates like in the e.g. I most probably would not have said anything at all, maybe after landing.
A gentle, calm, fair debriefing helps much more than building stress inflight with this kind of response the Capt used.
just my 2 cent....
Hd You make the point that you may well have said something after landing. That doesn't alter the pedantry level, it just means you've chosen a better way to make the point. It emphasises what I said in my first post in this thread, which was that pedantry, to me, means attention to detail and not letting errors go without correction. That is separate from being a bully, shouting, commenting at inappropriate times or undermining the junior member of the team. These are character defects and have nothing to do with pedantry as I understand it.
Several people here, including me, claim to be "agreeable pedants" and there's nothing difficult about that. Let's not attack "pedantry" when we really mean to attack bad behaviour.
Several people here, including me, claim to be "agreeable pedants" and there's nothing difficult about that. Let's not attack "pedantry" when we really mean to attack bad behaviour.
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I have to write something...
having followed this tread I must say something..
what is being pedantic? In this tread there is really very little difference in opinion on how a pilot/captain should behave. But I think there is a huge difference in how we percieve the word pedantic and imagine such a person.
If pedantic means extremly professional and not willing to lower his/her standard, then I think we can all agree that it is something we will always (hopefully) find in a cockpit left and right side.
If being pedantic means an obsession with details and loosing the ability to see the "big picture" than it's something different. English is not my first languaga (as you might se) but I think the word itself means somethingelse than being professional.
Basicly I find it very hard to see how being pedantic (in the way I interpret/ use it) could be good.
Having said that I don't mean to put anyone down who descibes themself as pedantic....most likely we just interpret the word a little bit different
Now it's done....
having followed this tread I must say something..
what is being pedantic? In this tread there is really very little difference in opinion on how a pilot/captain should behave. But I think there is a huge difference in how we percieve the word pedantic and imagine such a person.
If pedantic means extremly professional and not willing to lower his/her standard, then I think we can all agree that it is something we will always (hopefully) find in a cockpit left and right side.
If being pedantic means an obsession with details and loosing the ability to see the "big picture" than it's something different. English is not my first languaga (as you might se) but I think the word itself means somethingelse than being professional.
Basicly I find it very hard to see how being pedantic (in the way I interpret/ use it) could be good.
Having said that I don't mean to put anyone down who descibes themself as pedantic....most likely we just interpret the word a little bit different
Now it's done....
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First of all, the pedant is more likely to have prevented things from going from bad to worse in the first place. Second, if the situation is covered by the rulebook (SOPs, legislation, manuals, etc) he's more likely to know the answer. Being a pedant, he will have studied their meaning very closely. Third, if the situation is not covered by the rulebook, then there is nothing to be pedantic about and he is just as likely as any other pilot to come up with the solution.
Let me say that an airline skipper should find a modus operandi that suits him/her.No apologies are due to the right seat,he carries the can and he must be allowed to operate in a manner that makes him comfortable.If being a pedantic SOB is his thing well sobeit;the First Officer will have to grin and bear it.In fact it is sometimes good for co-pilots to fly with people like this;after all if you can get on with a guy like this,a normal well-balanced skipper who isnt a control freak will be a walk in the park.
I thoroughly disapprove of non-standard R/T procedure (US pilots please copy) and bring people up on it. On a recent flight I had words with an FO who couldn't or wouldn't get out of the habit of replying to level clearances with "Recleared down to 120 for the ABC123". I told him (a) not to use the word "recleared"; (b) not to use words like "to" and "for" on the R/T, particularly when talking numbers; (c) we are not "THE" ABC123. Why say "It's the ABC123 for start" when you can just as easily say "ABC123 request start"?
As for the co-pilot prefixing the callsign with "the"..;well,it's superfluous and unnecessary but is unlikely to confuse any controller,so would be harmless to most.
The use of "to" in level clearances...I would agree that this is best avoided,as "to" is a synonym of "two".
Your flippant remark about US R/T is highly arrogant...continental US airspace is the busiest in the world and O'Hare makes Heathrow look like toytown;readbacks are abreviated and delivery is staccato but safety is never compromised;I would never say that European controllers are no good because they operate at 60-70% of the US workrate;they operate in a different environment thats all.
Can you be an agreeable pedant as some here profess to be?I think you can be careful and conscientious and be very agreeable.But an agreeable pedant?NO.IMHO,its an undesirable trait for an airline pilot;Become a tax collector instead.