Those damned pedantic idiot captains
One of the interesting points that sometimes arises in these discussions on cockpit characters is the occasional crack at ex military trained pilots bringing a perceived arrogance on board.
I have noticed this in particular in the flying instructor world as well. I wonder about this perception, because although I spent nearly 20 years as a military pilot mainly on antiquated multi-engined bombers and transports, I simply don't recall any significant "pedantics" when compared to a similar 20 plus years that I flew as captain or first officer in the airline industry.
Certainly I flew with many senior military pilots as their co-pilot and while many were definately uncurrent, none that I recall "pulled rank"in the air. Most were, in fact, quietly grateful that a lower rank copilot would offer a gentle hint without being too direct when events were getting out of the senior pilot's depth.
In contrast, I too, have experienced the airline pilot pedantic idiots so succintly referred too in HSWL original post. Perhaps there is an arrogance that surfaces with the sometimes extraordinary high status (and sometimes commensurate high salary) that comes with a command in some airlines. There is no such equivalent status in the military I served with.
Perhaps this is due to the relatively short time to a command in the military when compared to the seniority system in the airlines which can mean anything from 4 to 15 years as a first officer before a command is attained. As such the airline first officer is exposed more to the whims and eccentricities of certain types of captain and in turn the first officer can unconsciously absorb these eccentricities himself over the years - and lo and behold another pedantic captain is cloned.
I have noticed this in particular in the flying instructor world as well. I wonder about this perception, because although I spent nearly 20 years as a military pilot mainly on antiquated multi-engined bombers and transports, I simply don't recall any significant "pedantics" when compared to a similar 20 plus years that I flew as captain or first officer in the airline industry.
Certainly I flew with many senior military pilots as their co-pilot and while many were definately uncurrent, none that I recall "pulled rank"in the air. Most were, in fact, quietly grateful that a lower rank copilot would offer a gentle hint without being too direct when events were getting out of the senior pilot's depth.
In contrast, I too, have experienced the airline pilot pedantic idiots so succintly referred too in HSWL original post. Perhaps there is an arrogance that surfaces with the sometimes extraordinary high status (and sometimes commensurate high salary) that comes with a command in some airlines. There is no such equivalent status in the military I served with.
Perhaps this is due to the relatively short time to a command in the military when compared to the seniority system in the airlines which can mean anything from 4 to 15 years as a first officer before a command is attained. As such the airline first officer is exposed more to the whims and eccentricities of certain types of captain and in turn the first officer can unconsciously absorb these eccentricities himself over the years - and lo and behold another pedantic captain is cloned.
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Just have some patience....
I used to fly with a Line Training Captain who was a really huge jerk. He would set up situations just to nail me for doing/not doing something or other. I finally suggested to him, very politely, that he might get a better, more positive response to his professional input if he did not ascribe everything that went wrong solely to one of the two crew members.
He launched into a typical tirade about how I should not seek to excuse my many mistakes by blaming him... and so on and so forth.
I sat back to have a think... should I bother to educate this jerk or else just let him cut his own throat? About six months later I moved into his seat! I guess that settled that argument!
If you really, really believe that you are in the right then you should be able to cope with whatever some clown throws at you.
A lot of the time I was making mistakes, which I certainly heard all about and learned from. The rest of it, at least I had to think things through to decide what was really going on there....
One often has to confront 'das innere Schweinhund' (the bastard within) and decided how much of him is really you. It's often too easy to project it all on the man across the cockpit.
He launched into a typical tirade about how I should not seek to excuse my many mistakes by blaming him... and so on and so forth.
I sat back to have a think... should I bother to educate this jerk or else just let him cut his own throat? About six months later I moved into his seat! I guess that settled that argument!
If you really, really believe that you are in the right then you should be able to cope with whatever some clown throws at you.
A lot of the time I was making mistakes, which I certainly heard all about and learned from. The rest of it, at least I had to think things through to decide what was really going on there....
One often has to confront 'das innere Schweinhund' (the bastard within) and decided how much of him is really you. It's often too easy to project it all on the man across the cockpit.
Let's hear it for the Pedants!
Well, I admit I haven't read every word in this thread, but I think I've read enough to make a further point. "Pedantic" and "idiot" are linked together as though all pedants are idiots. Somewhere else there is a reference to a pedant being "purple with rage". He shouldn't be.
I'm a pedant. Nearly forty years of flying and training have taught me to be so. Instructions, commands, requests and SOPs must be absolutely unambiguous or they WILL be misinterpreted or misunderstood. I run an "Instructional Technique" course for Training Captains and I tell them why they, too, should be pedants.
That has nothing to do with being a choleric old bully, or a snide and sarcastic sniper, or any other of the character defects we have all unfortunately experienced. Let's keep the pedants, I say, and eliminate the defective characters!
I'm a pedant. Nearly forty years of flying and training have taught me to be so. Instructions, commands, requests and SOPs must be absolutely unambiguous or they WILL be misinterpreted or misunderstood. I run an "Instructional Technique" course for Training Captains and I tell them why they, too, should be pedants.
That has nothing to do with being a choleric old bully, or a snide and sarcastic sniper, or any other of the character defects we have all unfortunately experienced. Let's keep the pedants, I say, and eliminate the defective characters!
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Totally agree with Keithl.
I too have a reputation for being a pedant when it comes to standards. For this, I am fully aware (although the FOs think I am not!) that I am one of the most unpopular Captains in their base.
FOs:us Captains were in your shoes once. Would you rather we didn't pick you up on sloppy operating and just tolerated it? We would like to think we are preparing you for your own command one day.
Some of the most tedious FOs to fly with are those who are perhaps in their second year of their first job, and tend to demonstrate the character flaws of being over confident and resilient to advice. I know..............I was one once!
I too have a reputation for being a pedant when it comes to standards. For this, I am fully aware (although the FOs think I am not!) that I am one of the most unpopular Captains in their base.
FOs:us Captains were in your shoes once. Would you rather we didn't pick you up on sloppy operating and just tolerated it? We would like to think we are preparing you for your own command one day.
Some of the most tedious FOs to fly with are those who are perhaps in their second year of their first job, and tend to demonstrate the character flaws of being over confident and resilient to advice. I know..............I was one once!
It is said that it takes "two to tango" or to paraphrase a famous well respected US president "Ask not what your Captain can do for you but what you can do for your Captain!".
Frustrating Captains to fly with are all part of the FOs job. Dare I say it but when I started airline flying in 1971 there were far more "characters" and "awkward customers" to fly with than there are now - all before the days of CRM! However, I always made it a personal rule that I would operate the rostered trip and try and learn SOMETHING from them - even if it was the wrong way of operating the flight deck!
In order to be a good Captain, I believe, you have to be a good First Officer and it is only by flying with the "pedants" that you learn how to be effective in a multi-crew environment with different personalities.
Finally, I remember one Training Captain in a charter company I used to fly with many moons ago who had a reputation for being "difficult" although he was always technically correct on nearly every issue. I decided to do a straw poll around the company and posed the hypothetical question that they were part of the operating crew when faced with a critical and potentially dangerous in flight emergency - would you rather be with this Training Captain as commander or somebody else - without heistation they all replied that they would rather be with said "difficult" Captain!!
Frustrating Captains to fly with are all part of the FOs job. Dare I say it but when I started airline flying in 1971 there were far more "characters" and "awkward customers" to fly with than there are now - all before the days of CRM! However, I always made it a personal rule that I would operate the rostered trip and try and learn SOMETHING from them - even if it was the wrong way of operating the flight deck!
In order to be a good Captain, I believe, you have to be a good First Officer and it is only by flying with the "pedants" that you learn how to be effective in a multi-crew environment with different personalities.
Finally, I remember one Training Captain in a charter company I used to fly with many moons ago who had a reputation for being "difficult" although he was always technically correct on nearly every issue. I decided to do a straw poll around the company and posed the hypothetical question that they were part of the operating crew when faced with a critical and potentially dangerous in flight emergency - would you rather be with this Training Captain as commander or somebody else - without heistation they all replied that they would rather be with said "difficult" Captain!!
If those martinet (a term for one of Napoleon's officers?) Captains are looking for something to criticize, then maybe someone can have a word with them. The problem with using their names among other Captains is that one of them will sooner or later betray your confidence and rat on you. Some of the Martinet Captains probably feel (or are treated) like a Nobody at home but in their uniform they can, now in their job with a command, as you call it, really be a Somebody. Of course the wife sometimes thinks that it is her job to remind many of us that we are just a new sailor on a small ship.
Maybe the British word 'command' really goes to their heads, instead of just being the captain, as here in the US. Someone needs to remind them that techniques can vary much more than a procedure. Unfortunately, I bend over backwards and never tell FOs what technique to use, allowing them plenty of freedom, and want them to feel that they are the Co-Captain, which they truly are. If they prefer a more conservative approach to anything, I usually go with their 'comfort level' on whatever affects safety, and don't want to ever suppress their willingness to speak up.
Anyway, if another Captain can't politely get through to a fellow Captain, then can you complain to a discrete, thoughtful Line Check Captain and would it make any difference? If not, then maybe an anonymous but very tactfully worded note (in a sealed envelope) quietly put in the Captain's company mailbox might help, assuming that he looks for such petty chicken sh!t with several other FOs and won't guess who it is?
Maybe the British word 'command' really goes to their heads, instead of just being the captain, as here in the US. Someone needs to remind them that techniques can vary much more than a procedure. Unfortunately, I bend over backwards and never tell FOs what technique to use, allowing them plenty of freedom, and want them to feel that they are the Co-Captain, which they truly are. If they prefer a more conservative approach to anything, I usually go with their 'comfort level' on whatever affects safety, and don't want to ever suppress their willingness to speak up.
Anyway, if another Captain can't politely get through to a fellow Captain, then can you complain to a discrete, thoughtful Line Check Captain and would it make any difference? If not, then maybe an anonymous but very tactfully worded note (in a sealed envelope) quietly put in the Captain's company mailbox might help, assuming that he looks for such petty chicken sh!t with several other FOs and won't guess who it is?
Last edited by Ignition Override; 27th Jan 2005 at 03:55.
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Well said IO
I have flown both l and r seat and are up for r seat again (in a bigger machine). I don't think anybody has anything against a pedant colleague l or r seat on the flt deck, but what really agrevate the **** out of people are those guys who are constantly picking on stuff that you have allready corrected for ie speed high when you have allready pulled the throttles back etc. I have never ever heard this from a really good/knowlegeble colleague but I've heard it oh so many times from the guys who are normaly not that good. If you are not good enogh your self, make the other guy look less good??? I bet you have all seen this even outside the deck. Verry often it seams to be those captains who are not that good that picks in this way ( never heard that from an fo). Allso I have the feeling that once you have been upgraded, it's for life. We have all seen companies upgrade people that really aren't qualified as cpt just because he/she is the least bad option at the time. And then it's for life unless you move on to something bigger..... All my friends I have talked to agrees that the problem gets smaller the bigger the machines are. Maybe because those captains never get to fly the jets? but they are still captain for life...... scary
Ok, who will throw the first stone
I have flown both l and r seat and are up for r seat again (in a bigger machine). I don't think anybody has anything against a pedant colleague l or r seat on the flt deck, but what really agrevate the **** out of people are those guys who are constantly picking on stuff that you have allready corrected for ie speed high when you have allready pulled the throttles back etc. I have never ever heard this from a really good/knowlegeble colleague but I've heard it oh so many times from the guys who are normaly not that good. If you are not good enogh your self, make the other guy look less good??? I bet you have all seen this even outside the deck. Verry often it seams to be those captains who are not that good that picks in this way ( never heard that from an fo). Allso I have the feeling that once you have been upgraded, it's for life. We have all seen companies upgrade people that really aren't qualified as cpt just because he/she is the least bad option at the time. And then it's for life unless you move on to something bigger..... All my friends I have talked to agrees that the problem gets smaller the bigger the machines are. Maybe because those captains never get to fly the jets? but they are still captain for life...... scary
Ok, who will throw the first stone
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No stones from me. I agree with you, Ignition Override, HSWL and some other guys. The problem with this item is that your words will be twisted or that you will be told to shut up. The concerning posters (captains) are definately good and pleasant to work with, they just can't believe it. 'BECAUSE THEY DON'T FLY WITH THEM'.
Let me tell you this : ' I have seen the result of some serious misbehaviour. Thank god there are F/O's (and captains aswell, of course).
PS. This is not an attack against captains. This is about 'rotten apples' . So if you think you are still eatable. Pls don't worry then.
Let me tell you this : ' I have seen the result of some serious misbehaviour. Thank god there are F/O's (and captains aswell, of course).
PS. This is not an attack against captains. This is about 'rotten apples' . So if you think you are still eatable. Pls don't worry then.
Last edited by Alaskan Timber; 13th Jan 2005 at 13:39.
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LOL 'Lackof'!
Attributable, I think, to Mark Twain (?) and paraphrased
"When I was 18 I could not believe my father was so stupid. When I was 21 I was amazed how much he had learnt in 3 years"
Attributable, I think, to Mark Twain (?) and paraphrased
"When I was 18 I could not believe my father was so stupid. When I was 21 I was amazed how much he had learnt in 3 years"
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To the pedantic captains that I flew with as an F/O, I heartily thank you. I learned from you that to be a pedant and strictly disciplined in all areas of aircraft operation is essential for safety and efficiency, especially when you were pedantic that Standard Procedures won't cover all situations, and that flexibility is sometimes necessary.
To the ordinary "Good Guy" captains that I flew with as an F/O, thank you for the time in my log book, I gained little else from you.
To the very few "Bad Apple" captains (call them Idiots if you want) that I flew with as an F/O, I heartily thank you. I learned from you first hand how a safe operation can go to crud when you break off from disciplined procedures and did your own thing. From you I learned most of all, I learned the consequences of undisciplined behaviour, I learned WHAT NOT to do, the most valuable lesson of all.
To the pedantic First Officers I now fly with, I heartily thank you. You pull me back into line once in a while if I deviate from good, disciplined, but flexible as necessary, pedanticly safe procedure.
To the ordinary "Good Guy" First Officers I now fly with, thank you for keeping me awake and alert on long tiring sectors, I cannot take my eyes off you.
To the very few "Bad Apple" F/Os (call them Idiots if you want) that I now fly with, thank you to my employer for making me an Examiner of Airmen, for it allows me the opportunity to say "Fail" or "Back to the Simulator".
Old Smokey (A pedant, and very proud of it).
To the ordinary "Good Guy" captains that I flew with as an F/O, thank you for the time in my log book, I gained little else from you.
To the very few "Bad Apple" captains (call them Idiots if you want) that I flew with as an F/O, I heartily thank you. I learned from you first hand how a safe operation can go to crud when you break off from disciplined procedures and did your own thing. From you I learned most of all, I learned the consequences of undisciplined behaviour, I learned WHAT NOT to do, the most valuable lesson of all.
To the pedantic First Officers I now fly with, I heartily thank you. You pull me back into line once in a while if I deviate from good, disciplined, but flexible as necessary, pedanticly safe procedure.
To the ordinary "Good Guy" First Officers I now fly with, thank you for keeping me awake and alert on long tiring sectors, I cannot take my eyes off you.
To the very few "Bad Apple" F/Os (call them Idiots if you want) that I now fly with, thank you to my employer for making me an Examiner of Airmen, for it allows me the opportunity to say "Fail" or "Back to the Simulator".
Old Smokey (A pedant, and very proud of it).
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Pedants. One who over values..petty details of booklearning, grammatical rules etc.
These are the flight safety menaces if only for their attitudes which cause resentment and anger in the cockpit among fellow crew members. Not good, Old Smokey...
These are the flight safety menaces if only for their attitudes which cause resentment and anger in the cockpit among fellow crew members. Not good, Old Smokey...
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Pedants.
Those who realise that attention to detail protects them as far as possible from this modern litigation and blame-apportioning Big Brother society in the instance of absence/relaxing of rules in an incident/accident.
Good Old Smokey!
Those who realise that attention to detail protects them as far as possible from this modern litigation and blame-apportioning Big Brother society in the instance of absence/relaxing of rules in an incident/accident.
Good Old Smokey!
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Finally I looked up the word PEDANTIC. I know a lot of PEDANTICS who don't have a clue of the BIG PICTURE.
Anyway, this thread is about 'IDIOTIC pedantic captains'=rotten apples. People who endanger flight safety by eliminating, in this case, the F/O. Some 'idiotic pedantic captains' are in 'the tunnel' within seconds.
Anyway, this thread is about 'IDIOTIC pedantic captains'=rotten apples. People who endanger flight safety by eliminating, in this case, the F/O. Some 'idiotic pedantic captains' are in 'the tunnel' within seconds.
Last edited by Alaskan Timber; 23rd Jan 2005 at 23:03.
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You're having a laugh aren't you?
What immense and impressive authority you speak with HSWL. Until I read your profile (PPL!) I almost considered contemplating the issues you raised. Bar-room wing-commander I imagine! Cheers, I'll have a half! bm
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Gentlemen - please!
Before we descend into the usual slagging match - let's remember that there seems to be some consensus on the substance if not the semantics
Yes, a certain level of "attention to detail" (in lieu of the P-word) is required in this business. The professionals appreciate when their fellow crew-members help them to strive for even higher standards than those they currently operate to. The not-so-professionals resent being reminded of a problem they know warrents attention but are unwilling to do something about.
If a certain level of "attention to detail" is exceeded - then problems arise - people feel they are being picked upon
Where this threshold is located - depends entirely on the crew members involved and their mental state on the particular day.
If somebody is known to be a poor operator and still shed their light of wisdom for everybody else to see - fair enough, probably warrents consultation with colleagues & some sort of intervention. If an otherwise fair to good operator gets into P-state in a less than elegant manner - it can probably be solved over a cuppa or a beer downroute.
Remember, it is not easy to correct others and still get the point across! Often the mere hint that you want some adjustments makes people very protective - hardly the right mindframe when recieving input. Likewise, it is never easy to be criticised, even when it relates to your profession & not your person.
If we all back down from our high pedestals and try to appreciate the good points that the other persons tries to get across - the number of p-persons in this world greatly diminish. A small fraction will remain - fair 'nuf, they are tw
ts. As for the remaining 95% of us - let's give eachother the benefit of the doubt and take the good points & leave the bad points aside.
Assuming that we are all adults, with powers to discern between whats valid & not and all interested in getting better at what we do & improving flight safety.
Brgds fm
Empty
Before we descend into the usual slagging match - let's remember that there seems to be some consensus on the substance if not the semantics
Yes, a certain level of "attention to detail" (in lieu of the P-word) is required in this business. The professionals appreciate when their fellow crew-members help them to strive for even higher standards than those they currently operate to. The not-so-professionals resent being reminded of a problem they know warrents attention but are unwilling to do something about.
If a certain level of "attention to detail" is exceeded - then problems arise - people feel they are being picked upon
Where this threshold is located - depends entirely on the crew members involved and their mental state on the particular day. If somebody is known to be a poor operator and still shed their light of wisdom for everybody else to see - fair enough, probably warrents consultation with colleagues & some sort of intervention. If an otherwise fair to good operator gets into P-state in a less than elegant manner - it can probably be solved over a cuppa or a beer downroute.
Remember, it is not easy to correct others and still get the point across! Often the mere hint that you want some adjustments makes people very protective - hardly the right mindframe when recieving input. Likewise, it is never easy to be criticised, even when it relates to your profession & not your person.
If we all back down from our high pedestals and try to appreciate the good points that the other persons tries to get across - the number of p-persons in this world greatly diminish. A small fraction will remain - fair 'nuf, they are tw
ts. As for the remaining 95% of us - let's give eachother the benefit of the doubt and take the good points & leave the bad points aside. Assuming that we are all adults, with powers to discern between whats valid & not and all interested in getting better at what we do & improving flight safety.
Brgds fm
Empty