R/T failure
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R/T failure
Does anyone know why in this standardised world we live in, the UK radio failure procedures are to fly on the given heading etc for 7 mins and the rest of europe are 3 mins ? before turning onto the flightplan ?
Seems like you could cover alot of ground in 7 mins in the UK ??
Seems like you could cover alot of ground in 7 mins in the UK ??
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It's all of Europe
Recently they standardized Radio Comm Failure procedures in Europe. This included the 7 minutes of maintaining the last assigned speed and level.
Additionally, some member states specify that failure to comply may result in the cost of interception being charged to the PIC or Airline concerned.
Reference "Regional Supplementary Procedures, DOC 7030/4-EUR, Part 1, Rules of the Air, Air Traffic Services and Search and Rescue."
Additionally, some member states specify that failure to comply may result in the cost of interception being charged to the PIC or Airline concerned.
Reference "Regional Supplementary Procedures, DOC 7030/4-EUR, Part 1, Rules of the Air, Air Traffic Services and Search and Rescue."
Only half a speed-brake
toon:
just to add my 2pence, If only it were that simple! 
After you read Doc 7030 you need to open the Jepp or so (a.k.a close to check the relevant AIP and study each states / airports regulations). For my low capacity memory it is a part of every pre flight. 
After you read Doc 7030 you need to open the Jepp or so (a.k.a close to check the relevant AIP and study each states / airports regulations). For my low capacity memory it is a part of every pre flight.
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toon
I think it is the same in the UK. The Aerad Europe and Middle East Supplement refers. I am sorry I don't have a reference, but I mis-remembered what you had asked. I will have a look again tomorrow night. It is only 3mins in the UK if you are put on a heading away from a SID.
I'll post the reference when I get back on Thursday.
G W-H
I think it is the same in the UK. The Aerad Europe and Middle East Supplement refers. I am sorry I don't have a reference, but I mis-remembered what you had asked. I will have a look again tomorrow night. It is only 3mins in the UK if you are put on a heading away from a SID.
I'll post the reference when I get back on Thursday.
G W-H
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Here we go...
The UK does use 3 minutes if you have R/T failure whilst on a heading. Here is the reference
UK AIP ENR 1.1.3
3.2.4.1
(c) (i) If being radar vectored... continue in accordance with ATC instructions last acknowledged for 3 minutes only and then proceed in the most direct manner possible to rejoin the current flight planned route.
I hope this is useful. I am pretty sure that in reality it would take longer than 3 minutes to find the right book on the flight deck. I suppose the best thing to do is adopt standard aviation philosophy and if you come across something you've not seen before - either eat it or start your stop watch!
G W-H
The UK does use 3 minutes if you have R/T failure whilst on a heading. Here is the reference
UK AIP ENR 1.1.3
3.2.4.1
(c) (i) If being radar vectored... continue in accordance with ATC instructions last acknowledged for 3 minutes only and then proceed in the most direct manner possible to rejoin the current flight planned route.
I hope this is useful. I am pretty sure that in reality it would take longer than 3 minutes to find the right book on the flight deck. I suppose the best thing to do is adopt standard aviation philosophy and if you come across something you've not seen before - either eat it or start your stop watch!
G W-H
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BlueEagle
At the risk of being pedantic (which I am afraid goes with the territory when it comes to R/T failure) the act of being "indentified" or under "radar control" makes no difference to the procedures to be adopted in the UK. The 3 minutes comes about if you are being vectored, otherwise it is 7 minutes.
3.2.4.1
(ii) If failure occurs when the aircraft is following a... SID and clearance to climb, or re-routing instructions have not been given, the procedure should be flown in accordance with the published lateral track and vertical profile, including any stepped climbs, until the last position, fix or waypoint, published for the procedure has been reached. Then for that part of 7 minutes that may remain, maintain the current speed and last assigned level or minimum safe altitude, if this higher.
If your radio fails as you change between sectors, the standard 7 minutes applies:
3.2.4.1
(b) (i) Maintain, for a period of 7 minutes, the current speed and last assigned level or minimum safe altitude, if this higher.
Pilots
It would be interesting to hear what level pilots would enter the hold at LAM on the way into Heathrow if their R/T failed before entering UK airspace and they were cruising at FL360. Any one any ideas?? I am sure the ATCOs would be interested to know!!
G W-H
At the risk of being pedantic (which I am afraid goes with the territory when it comes to R/T failure) the act of being "indentified" or under "radar control" makes no difference to the procedures to be adopted in the UK. The 3 minutes comes about if you are being vectored, otherwise it is 7 minutes.
3.2.4.1
(ii) If failure occurs when the aircraft is following a... SID and clearance to climb, or re-routing instructions have not been given, the procedure should be flown in accordance with the published lateral track and vertical profile, including any stepped climbs, until the last position, fix or waypoint, published for the procedure has been reached. Then for that part of 7 minutes that may remain, maintain the current speed and last assigned level or minimum safe altitude, if this higher.
If your radio fails as you change between sectors, the standard 7 minutes applies:
3.2.4.1
(b) (i) Maintain, for a period of 7 minutes, the current speed and last assigned level or minimum safe altitude, if this higher.
Pilots
It would be interesting to hear what level pilots would enter the hold at LAM on the way into Heathrow if their R/T failed before entering UK airspace and they were cruising at FL360. Any one any ideas?? I am sure the ATCOs would be interested to know!!
G W-H
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Things have obviously changed! The 'old' procedure, if you were not identified, was to leave controlled airspace, climb to FP level then rejoin controlled airspace, all very difficult in the UK. If radar identified then as per your post above.
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thanks for that everyone,
proves my point though, anyone know why we all have to be so different ?? would be alot easier to have one procedure
GWH, I would arrive at LAM,BPK etc at my filed flight level (350 etc) and descend in the hold to land within 30mins - these are the rules as i understand them, but they are overly complicated - is that what you were expecting ?
N.b - not so bad in europe maybe but often wandered what chaos this would cause ? and do i fancy doing that in Africa/India -- nope - infact the thought of diverting into anywhere in india with a radio failure brings shivers - think we would either be shot down or locked up !!
proves my point though, anyone know why we all have to be so different ?? would be alot easier to have one procedure
GWH, I would arrive at LAM,BPK etc at my filed flight level (350 etc) and descend in the hold to land within 30mins - these are the rules as i understand them, but they are overly complicated - is that what you were expecting ?
N.b - not so bad in europe maybe but often wandered what chaos this would cause ? and do i fancy doing that in Africa/India -- nope - infact the thought of diverting into anywhere in india with a radio failure brings shivers - think we would either be shot down or locked up !!
Last edited by toon; 28th May 2004 at 07:07.
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toon
Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts. The UK rules about STARs changed recently
3.2.4.1
(d) (iii) If following a STAR, after the 7 minute period... arrange descent as close as possible to the published descent planning profile.
I am not saying you are wrong, but you may be less "right" than some other answers!! (In truth I don't know if there is a right answer, especially if you take into account what level you will want to be at to fly an approach starting at LAM).
Any other thoughts?
All the best
G W-H
Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts. The UK rules about STARs changed recently
3.2.4.1
(d) (iii) If following a STAR, after the 7 minute period... arrange descent as close as possible to the published descent planning profile.
I am not saying you are wrong, but you may be less "right" than some other answers!! (In truth I don't know if there is a right answer, especially if you take into account what level you will want to be at to fly an approach starting at LAM).
Any other thoughts?
All the best
G W-H
Only half a speed-brake
My initial feelling was to adhere to the descent profiles if there were any. However I didn't post but went to check the books yesterday to find my other feeling correct, i.e. that LAM arrival has no profiles, only planning guidlines so to speak. And after reading the relevant chapter I came to this: Last cleared and acknowledged level to LAM, hold and descent at no less than 500 fpm down to FL70, 250kts max below FL140, to leave LAM at as close as possible to EAT / ETA, 220 kt subsequently descending to the lowest published altitudes 180 kt on final track, 160 kt to 4DME, land within 30 min, first available exit, wait for follow-me car.
It is not that I found such scenario somewhere as such, it is only what my best effort would be, given the procedures available.
Obviously I had a eye-brain trouble missing the descent planning requirement or it remains to be implemetned to our documentation yet. When did this change took place (supposing you refer to AIP UK to which I do not have operational access)?
It is not that I found such scenario somewhere as such, it is only what my best effort would be, given the procedures available.
Obviously I had a eye-brain trouble missing the descent planning requirement or it remains to be implemetned to our documentation yet. When did this change took place (supposing you refer to AIP UK to which I do not have operational access)?
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FlightDetent
You are quite correct that there is no published profile for the LAM STARs, HOWEVER there are expected levels shown on the plate (Aerad EGLL SID/STAR booklet page H5). To me this is the "published descent planning profile".
To my mind there are a number of possible answers:
1. Last cleared level (in our case FL360)
2. FL150 (planning profile level at SABER)
3. FL70/80/90 (depending upon QNH and runway in use and reliant upon pilot knowledge of ATC procedures)
4. Alt 7000'. Shown on the STAR as the minimum holding level and on the approach plate as the start level for the procedure
I am sure there are more, but I think these are all reasonable.
Any thoughts anyone?
G W-H
You are quite correct that there is no published profile for the LAM STARs, HOWEVER there are expected levels shown on the plate (Aerad EGLL SID/STAR booklet page H5). To me this is the "published descent planning profile".
To my mind there are a number of possible answers:
1. Last cleared level (in our case FL360)
2. FL150 (planning profile level at SABER)
3. FL70/80/90 (depending upon QNH and runway in use and reliant upon pilot knowledge of ATC procedures)
4. Alt 7000'. Shown on the STAR as the minimum holding level and on the approach plate as the start level for the procedure
I am sure there are more, but I think these are all reasonable.
Any thoughts anyone?
G W-H
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GWH, mmmm, so as atc are you saying that you would expect me to leave cruising level at the expected top of descent point (120nm) ish and arrive onto the star plate at the first published FL ?
This is just one of those 'little' problems that could cause all sorts of implications- I always understood that you maintain your cruising altitude to the fix that serves the destination and then whilst going around the hold descend,- obvious implications when the vor is on an airway routing ? but this stuff is good to discuss before it happens.
regards
This is just one of those 'little' problems that could cause all sorts of implications- I always understood that you maintain your cruising altitude to the fix that serves the destination and then whilst going around the hold descend,- obvious implications when the vor is on an airway routing ? but this stuff is good to discuss before it happens.
regards
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toon, this is tricky stuff isn't it!! At least we have the benefit of being on the ground contemplating this, rather than rushing towards LAM at 7 miles a minute.
I am not an ATCO, but I know that this sort of question comes up quite regularly when they are discussing unusual circumstances.
For me personally the best answer is FL150, although FL80 comes a close second.
I am genuinely interested in other people's views, because I am sure that the solutions people adopt will be many and varied!
G W-H
I am not an ATCO, but I know that this sort of question comes up quite regularly when they are discussing unusual circumstances.
For me personally the best answer is FL150, although FL80 comes a close second.
I am genuinely interested in other people's views, because I am sure that the solutions people adopt will be many and varied!
G W-H
Only half a speed-brake
Indeed. It is a descent plannnig, not descent profile as it is in FRA for instead.
It had really been eye problem, the relevant Jepp page has it (13DEC03) very clear. On a notified STAR, after the 7 minutes have elapsed arrange descent to comply with the published descent planning profile.
No doubt in here except for the word NOTIFIED.
It even continues in saying with no DES planning published, arrenge to reach IAF on the lowest altitude/level by ETA.
Thus my thoughts had been fundamentally incorrect. What a feeling.
Cheers,
FD.
It had really been eye problem, the relevant Jepp page has it (13DEC03) very clear. On a notified STAR, after the 7 minutes have elapsed arrange descent to comply with the published descent planning profile.
No doubt in here except for the word NOTIFIED.
It even continues in saying with no DES planning published, arrenge to reach IAF on the lowest altitude/level by ETA.
Thus my thoughts had been fundamentally incorrect. What a feeling.
Cheers,
FD.
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FlightDetent
Don't be too hard on yourself. This is not an easy topic! Have you decided on what level to be at LAM yet?
toon
Thought of a level yet? There are no wrong answers here. After all, it would be useful for ATCOs to find out what we might do. (Besides, if this comes up in a sim exercise it will have been useful to have thought about it beforehand)
G W-H
Don't be too hard on yourself. This is not an easy topic! Have you decided on what level to be at LAM yet?
toon
Thought of a level yet? There are no wrong answers here. After all, it would be useful for ATCOs to find out what we might do. (Besides, if this comes up in a sim exercise it will have been useful to have thought about it beforehand)
G W-H
Only half a speed-brake
Arrive FL70, sort out some QNH e.g. last METAR + 3 hPa, leave 7000', omit CDA procedure, and do not forget to arm APCH mode. No paperwork to support this, but that would be my call. What would you do?
The QNH setting is a another complete issue, isn't it?
FD.
The QNH setting is a another complete issue, isn't it?
FD.
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mmmm got everyone thinking though ay ? just reading eupoean rvsm area (not uk!!) 7 mins etc etc and
c) "there after, adjust level and speed in accordance with the filed flight plan"
"note with regard to changes to levels and speed, the filed flight plan, which is the flight plan filed with an ats unit by the pilot or designated representative without any subsequent changes will be used "
interesting then that our flight plans have a TOD on them but when asking the question i have always been told to maintain cruising level untill the fix, descend in the hold and land ?
Any radar controllers out there ?
c) "there after, adjust level and speed in accordance with the filed flight plan"
"note with regard to changes to levels and speed, the filed flight plan, which is the flight plan filed with an ats unit by the pilot or designated representative without any subsequent changes will be used "
interesting then that our flight plans have a TOD on them but when asking the question i have always been told to maintain cruising level untill the fix, descend in the hold and land ?
Any radar controllers out there ?
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Answers from LATC, please
By now someone from LATC/SWANICK, or LHR Radar. Must have seen this thread.....One of the best in a long time....I await the "answer" from ATC.....Bumz