R/T failure
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FlightDetent
I think I am going to state FL150 as my answer. Hit LAM at that level then go around the hold a couple of times dropping to ALT 7000' (unusual in the London TMA), based on an estimated QNH, then start the procesdure (again, something odd in the London TMA). I am not sure how correct this is though!!
toon
The TOD on your flight plan, is that shown within the pages of the "plog"? Is the actual flight plan as filed with ATC also given to you?
G W-H
I think I am going to state FL150 as my answer. Hit LAM at that level then go around the hold a couple of times dropping to ALT 7000' (unusual in the London TMA), based on an estimated QNH, then start the procesdure (again, something odd in the London TMA). I am not sure how correct this is though!!
toon
The TOD on your flight plan, is that shown within the pages of the "plog"? Is the actual flight plan as filed with ATC also given to you?
G W-H
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I would probably agree with Giles. The descent planning profile for the LAM 3A STAR also has expected levels for LOGAN, so I would expect your descent to conform with these too.
So, descent at your discretion to cross LOGAN at FL250/220, continuing to cross SABER at FL150. Maintain until LAM, then descend in the hold.
Two points to note:
1. If you're going into Heathrow squawking 7600, there ain't going to be anything in your way! You could descend practically anywhere - it would be a rather foolish ATCO that positioned any other traffic anywhere near you.
2. In the current political climate you may not find yourself alone for long - does anyone else think that the RAF's finest might be checking you out prior to your arrival in London, given that a radio failure could indicate a myriad of on-board scenarios?
Back to the point... yes, if your STAR has a descent planning profile, then we ATCOs would probably expect you to follow it. If there is no published profile (unusual for LTMA airfields, but may happen further afield), the book says you should arrive at the IAF at the Minimum Holding Level (7000' on your best guess QNH, if this procedure applied at LAM?)
Essentially, the book is written by a bunch of bureaucrats who don't do the job it was written for, so some things written in there are not always practicable or even sensible (I'm not necessarily saying this about the radio failure procedures). Suffice to say that if you're completely radio-fail, you'll descend and land at Heathrow in a way that more-or-less conforms to the procedures, and we'll get everything out of your way. Common sense will prevail.
LTP
So, descent at your discretion to cross LOGAN at FL250/220, continuing to cross SABER at FL150. Maintain until LAM, then descend in the hold.
Two points to note:
1. If you're going into Heathrow squawking 7600, there ain't going to be anything in your way! You could descend practically anywhere - it would be a rather foolish ATCO that positioned any other traffic anywhere near you.
2. In the current political climate you may not find yourself alone for long - does anyone else think that the RAF's finest might be checking you out prior to your arrival in London, given that a radio failure could indicate a myriad of on-board scenarios?
Back to the point... yes, if your STAR has a descent planning profile, then we ATCOs would probably expect you to follow it. If there is no published profile (unusual for LTMA airfields, but may happen further afield), the book says you should arrive at the IAF at the Minimum Holding Level (7000' on your best guess QNH, if this procedure applied at LAM?)
Essentially, the book is written by a bunch of bureaucrats who don't do the job it was written for, so some things written in there are not always practicable or even sensible (I'm not necessarily saying this about the radio failure procedures). Suffice to say that if you're completely radio-fail, you'll descend and land at Heathrow in a way that more-or-less conforms to the procedures, and we'll get everything out of your way. Common sense will prevail.
LTP
A couple of points. First, for the LHR arrival scenario, my reading would be to maintain FL150 to the LAM hold, descend to 7000 ft in the LAM hold and leave for the approach at that level at ETA + 10 min (or EAT if given). Don't forget that there are LHR-specific instructions set out in the AIP.
Second, I don't think the European rules are as different as toon makes out. The time from setting 7600 to changing level or speed is 7 minutes, wherever you are. The general procedure if being radar vectored is to route immediately back to the planned track or next significant point. The UK differs only in asking for a 3 minute grace period to sort things out!
Second, I don't think the European rules are as different as toon makes out. The time from setting 7600 to changing level or speed is 7 minutes, wherever you are. The general procedure if being radar vectored is to route immediately back to the planned track or next significant point. The UK differs only in asking for a 3 minute grace period to sort things out!
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Given the current climate, if you went radio fail inbound to Heathrow and tried to land there, then I fear you might be taking a big risk by flying over the centre of London and not talking to anyone!!!
Much better to go to Stansted me thinks!!!!!
Much better to go to Stansted me thinks!!!!!
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coracle
Don't think you are going to get too much support for that one!!!
If you are flight planned into LHR and then lose communication at least ATC know your planned intentions, will expect you to follow published procedure for Radio Failure and continue to LHR. If you decide to clear off to EGSS you are, in the current climate, likely to find a couple of Tornado's coming up to see you! Not to mention the additional ATC load you would cause whilst everyone watches to see what you are up to and have to communicate from sector to sector just to keep everything else out of the way. (And should you think of dropping to low level to avoid radar then you will certainly become the immediate property of the Tornado's!
).
If you are flight planned into LHR and then lose communication at least ATC know your planned intentions, will expect you to follow published procedure for Radio Failure and continue to LHR. If you decide to clear off to EGSS you are, in the current climate, likely to find a couple of Tornado's coming up to see you! Not to mention the additional ATC load you would cause whilst everyone watches to see what you are up to and have to communicate from sector to sector just to keep everything else out of the way. (And should you think of dropping to low level to avoid radar then you will certainly become the immediate property of the Tornado's!
).
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Mmmm, checked and i would arrive at LAM at FL360 or what ever is on my flight plan, hold, descend to land within 30 mins of the expected time of arrival.
Blue eagle, have we got two working tornado's ?
Blue eagle, have we got two working tornado's ?
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re-assuring to know that not many are really clear what to do!
why not squawk radio failure and pull out one of those books you were always meaning to read by your seat and look in the section radio failure.
you know the old adage, when all else fails read the instructions!!!!
why not squawk radio failure and pull out one of those books you were always meaning to read by your seat and look in the section radio failure.
you know the old adage, when all else fails read the instructions!!!!
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Was working out of another company base and doing longhaul sectors (3 hours!) so I pulled out the Aerad supplement and had a look.
Can't comment on the LHR procedures as I don't go there anymore but Toons last comment I agree with. In general go to the hold at your flight planned level, descend in the hold so you begin your approach within 30 minutes of your EAT and land.
Didn't read about the 3 or 7 minutes on heading. Is this peculiar to LHR or have I missed it? Anyone got a link to an AIP notice on this as I'd like to read up on it?
Had a VHF radio failure at CDG some years ago in IMC, was being vectored on base when comms were lost. Called up Stockholm Radio on HF and they said it would be a while until they got a phone patch through to CDG ATC. 60 seconds later we were talking to ATC who gave us some vectors, VHF comms came back so we spoke to the tower, she said "your number 3" but no clearance, comms went again so we just landed anyway! All good fun.
Can't comment on the LHR procedures as I don't go there anymore but Toons last comment I agree with. In general go to the hold at your flight planned level, descend in the hold so you begin your approach within 30 minutes of your EAT and land.
Didn't read about the 3 or 7 minutes on heading. Is this peculiar to LHR or have I missed it? Anyone got a link to an AIP notice on this as I'd like to read up on it?
Had a VHF radio failure at CDG some years ago in IMC, was being vectored on base when comms were lost. Called up Stockholm Radio on HF and they said it would be a while until they got a phone patch through to CDG ATC. 60 seconds later we were talking to ATC who gave us some vectors, VHF comms came back so we spoke to the tower, she said "your number 3" but no clearance, comms went again so we just landed anyway! All good fun.
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Scottie
Are you sure you had the current Aerad supplement? We use the same documents and the 3 and 7 minutes blah is definitely in there. It is not peculiar to LHR and is standard for the UK. (Well, about as standard as anything gets these days!).
G W-H
Are you sure you had the current Aerad supplement? We use the same documents and the 3 and 7 minutes blah is definitely in there. It is not peculiar to LHR and is standard for the UK. (Well, about as standard as anything gets these days!).
G W-H
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OK Toon
"One Tornado, (but any aircraft may be substituted at the discretion of the management, provided that a second crew member is holding a picture of a similar aircraft)" - please tell me it hasn't really come to this?
