Caygill, those 10 "questions" from RT are the most a ridiculous set of propaganda which is only believable for Russian apologists.

As for why Ukraine has did not wait for international observers before listing to ATC tapes, perhaps that is because it was under Ukranian ATC. If you want to talk about international observers, perhaps we can talk about why the Russian backed militia is preventing European crash investigators from accessing the scene.

And finally, here is a RT journalist who has resigned due to RTs factually wrong coverage of this destruction of a civilian airliner:
Russian TV reporter quits over crash coverage

I'd be very concerned re a cover up of evidence and wouldnt be suprised if the black boxes did a runner. It doesnt mask the plain fact that a civilian airliner was shot out of the sky.

>>Those scars looks rather like something hit or slided on that surface - possibly other plane fragments hit that fragment when it was desintegrating in the air - than holes/marks left by small shrapnels from exploding warhead.

>That is also consistent with an expanding rod. It expands as a continuous ring to maximum diameter, typically 45-60 feet before separating. Rod may be inches to feet long.

It's possible that those are scars doen by rods skidding by the surface, but for me it's more likely than heavy steel rods moving at nearly 1000m/s would cut trough any plane surface like hot knife trough butter, leaving clean cuts and not scars, at any angle. For me it looks like something lighter (like other fragments of fuselage) collided with this fragment. Or maybe some parts of missile body other than the rods. I can be wrong though, it's hard to determine without doing some experiments with 1000m/s collisions... :-/.

Dutch tv just showing the investigators being threatened by rebel troops if they try to approach the main wreckage.
Seems a bit Obvious who's trying to hide a smoking gun

ienes thanks for the info on the Ts. I was about to ask the same question. Was the flight at FL330 on those days with the southerly routing or maybe stuck at FL290 and forced to route around

It seems with what we're hearing in the news indicates that a proper independent investigation is increasingly unlikely. Looting of the bodies and refusing access to the site for the proper authorities is inexcusable.

Whether or not the action by the rebels is orchestrated by Moscow remains to be seen, however the rebels need to be reigned in.

It's more than likely that the Americans know exactly where the missile came from and probably who fired it. This information will no doubt be shared with the countries directly affected. The question is what will the governments do about it?

Perhaps we can.
In the meantime, what would be wrong with serious answers to those 10 qestions? If the implied allegations can be dispelled by means of those answers, what would be wrong with that?

I can asnwer RT's question 1 straight away: Ukraine immediately blamed separatists because on 17 July they have been celebrating shooting down of an airplane using "Buk" missile. Just go to Google and search for Украина Торез Сбит транспортный АН 26 and you will find dozens of Russian (!) news on "An-26 shot down by separatists using a missile" published just 30 mins before it became evident it was MH17...

Then expect a full scale fight for the wreckage. The separatists are edgy, semi-trained ( apart from a core of serving Russian military ) and they also know that they f*cked up. Sending any form of Western military would be utter lunacy. Additionally, three days have now passed. I bet that the area has been searched for remains of the warhead etc etc ......

Sorry to specualate, but let's assume that the "rebels" actually shot down the plane, and nothing more to the story (no hiding fighters, etc).

These "rebels" are a very diverse gang. There are surely some gang-ho drunk hereos among them, but likewise there are some very hardcore battle hardened veterans from Afganistan, Chechnya, etc. Most importantly a significant amount of Ukranian forces defected or switched sides during the early stages of the conflict.

In short, there is no shortage among the "rebels" of people highly trained in these missile systems.

The Dutch and Malaysians seem to have responded with a dignity and maturity to their loss of life.

By contrast the Western / Russia media are going at it like wolves.

No reason other than the airlines operations planning the most optimum route for the day.
We fly over that area often as do many other carriers, because it was deemed safe to civil traffic the same as Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq and many others.

Shooting down of Ukrainian military aircraft at cruising altitude reflects ongoing es
 

So,given that this incident occured on July 14th,...

Pilots....you accept the Flight Plan!

Airline Navigation Departments,....you monitor and plan routes!

ICAO....you are responsible for advising us all!

There are plenty of people in the link,before the accountants.People who should be contributing to a safe operation.

My point here is...don't simply rely on the people above you in the link.

I don't need an official letter,addressed to me personally,to tell me that putting my hand into a flame will burn me!

Be Pro active!

How many airlines and airline pilots continued to overfly this area since July 14th!

MH17 down near Donetsk
 

Sky news have just reported the following;

Ukraine's counter-intelligence chief Vitaly Nada has said he has "compelling evidence" that Russian citizens were operating the missile battery that shot down MH17.

Not sure how the authorities would confirm this but it's not looking good for Russia

These questions are so childish, that reminds me the boy with his dirty chocolate mouth, trying to blame his little brother for the stolen chocolate....


There are nearly 300 body needing to be identified, nearly 300 souls that need justice and nearly 300 families and beloved that need answers... And they are denying Osce inspectors access to the site..... True, they are not soldiers, they are criminals.

It probably went to the North because there were many large CBs to the South along the usual route.

Definitely not damage from a Con-Rod warhead, as that would have a saw tooth pattern at the impact point if the rods were still connected. The rods will go through normal aircraft structure like a knife through soft butter, but if they hit anything substantial like an engine, undercarriage leg or major casting, the rods in that area will break apart and the damage will become very random. Anyhow the SA-11 / SA-17 isn’t fitted a Con-Rod warhead according to what information is on the internet, but a 50 to 70 lb Blast Fragmentation warhead. Con-Rod warheads are very effective against large targets or smaller targets with a weapon that is limited to a stern / head on attack profile (early Sidewinder or Sparrow) but if you want to engage the range of targets that the SA-11 / SA-17 can be employed against (ARM’s / Cruise Missiles / Helicopters / Supersonic Fighters/ Etc.) at all intercept geometries, a blast fragmentation warhead gives a much higher probability of a kill than a Con-Rod warhead does.

Yes dignity ...

But what is worthy of leaving the bodies of 189 fellow to the scavengers ... with just as response messages of condolence
What is the reaction of the EU ... other than messages of condolence?
How humiliating for this country and the families of victims !

Not that day, we were in the air at the time it happened, operating in the area just a bit further north.

Buk with one missile missing - where is was seen
 

Video with Buk launcher with one missile missing
Source is 100% pro-ukrainian, 100% putin-free.

However, there is one small problem with location.
It was shot at Krasnoarmeisk, Dnepropetrovskaya st. 40.

It's clear that the conflict between the pro-Russians and the Ukraine government is of much more importance to the military 'personnel' on the ground than respect for nearly 300 innocent people - 80 children! - whose bodies are rotting in the fields. Irrespective of what happens to that bit of Ukraine in the future, it will be hard to forget the lack of basic humanity being displayed here.

Mathfox, my company changed routing 2nd April,when first warnings were available to operators.
It is true that our routing change involved a reasonably short dogleg,and had little impact on flight time!

Just trying to give food for thought on proactive,rather than reactive judgement from front end..

It is not as if the developing crisis in Ukraine was not widely discussed in the media!

I disagree. Our data shows that the most frequent route for MH17, used on around 50 flights this year, would have taken the aircraft through CBs that reached approx. FL360. The northerly path that MH17 took on this day (used by 3 other MH17 flights this year) avoided this and several other CBs.

What had to happen but failed is securing the crash site and make sure the bodies are taken away as soon as possible.
The site is a disgrace for humanity. People looted suitcases of the almost 300 who died. OVSE observers were not allowed to enter all of the crash site. Just allowed to watch from a distance. Rebels told them not to enter the fields. 48 hours after the crash bodies are rotten. That is reality. Evidence has probably taken away by rebels who control the area.
Dutch are very angry about that.

I am from Belgium. This is so sad, there simply are no words for it.

Drunk and armed rebels preventing an observation team to enter the site?

FURIOUS ! is way to soft for what we feel.

But then?
Who is ready to launch an International military operation to secure the site? Within 24 hrs?

Are the Dutch, Malasians, Australians ready to drop 2.000 military in the region? NOW !!!!
How long would it take to organise an opp like that?

And? What will be the result?

Our hands are bound.

The ONLY people that could do something are the Russians.
They shoulld open their heart to this human tragedy "NOW" and send a Russian army into the region to teach those rebels some manners.

This is so . . . . sorry, there are no words left.

2 ExSimGuy:
1. This video is recorded a day before crash at 19.11 local.
2. According video these guys expected to see sum parts from military plane and guns, weapon, but NOT a human parts.

Indeed.

Reading the BBC today, it's impossible not to feel anger at the stories of children's bodies strewn over the landscape surrounded by their toys and books, their lives cut short in the most dreadful manner at the hands of trigger happy irregulars. And it is now being reported that a disabled child in the UK has been orphaned by the crash of MH017. But what makes me feel even more angry is the behaviour of those whose admiration and support for these so called rebels, and their Russian sponsors, blinds them to the enormity of this crime. What really matters is who pulled the trigger, by whose authority, and how they came by the means to do so. And yet these apologists - several of whom have been regular contributors to this thread - seek only to deny rebel complicity, or to deflect blame onto others.

298 innocent people have died, but certain people only seek to defend the perpetrators. I don't know how they sleep at night....

Dutch banks act on MH17 credit card looting reports
 

Amsterdam (AFP) - Dutch banks said Saturday they were taking "preventative measures" after reports of credit cards being looted from the Ukrainian crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, where 192 Dutch citizens died.

Dutch banks act on MH17 credit card looting reports

Looting of dead peoples credit cards?
Beyond despicable.

I'm sure Putin is already toying with this idea. Using the situation around the crash site as pretext for the Russian army to enter East Ukraine as "stabilising" force. And then staying there.

Reminding you that so far there is no creadible report to this claim. CNN's on- ground reporter claims actually the opposite. Telling it a 1000 times won't make it a fact.

Both Ukraine and Russia is spreading these speculation to feed their political own agenda. We really need to look at facts and start behave as ppruners.

I am totally appalled by the loss of innocent lives but I feel that I need to ask a number of questions.

Accepting that there were attempts by apparently Russian backed elements to break away from Ukraine, the incident took place in Ukrainian airspace, where Ukraine still has safety accountability.

Were the Ukrainian government aware, prior to the incident, that the opposition forces were equipped with a missile system that could preduice the safety of traffic flying over the country at high levels? If they were, why did they not take immediate action to declare a temporary restricted/prohibited area, thereby forcing civil air carriers to avoid the airspace?

As an ICAO Contracting State, Ukraine's Air Traffic Management System is required to operate in accordance with a Safety Management System, did this fail?

We need some objectivity here.

Their is no evidence that either the separatists nor their alleged Russian sponsors are responsible for this, and any reports by OSCE observers need to be taken within the context of their agenda, they are not as many imagine totally unbiased.

I would also take with a pinch of salt the reports of drunk separatists shooting their guns whilst swigging from bottles as they loot passenger belongings. Somebody is pushing their agenda it seems.

We even have the US arguing (quite rightly) for a full independent investigation and then in the next sentence stating that this was the fault (indirectly or directly) of the Russian Federation.

What we don't have is any facts.

Putin wont want the black boxes in Russia, it only would cause more problems than he has right now.

I predict

1 Black boxes will not been seen again

2 the Buk is back in Russia and will be buried/torched

3 the team who fired the missile will likewise be dead by now and buried

4 no trace of the missile will be found (specialist cleaner will have been on site with hours)

5 The US & Russia will have launch co-ordinates to within a metre

6 not a single person or group will ever face trail

7 MA will be bust within a month

8 further sanctions will be applied to Russia

9 Germany will continue to buy gas and ship Merc's

10 France will deliver the warships on order to Russia

11 Chelsea will still be owned by a Russian

12 Obama will draw another red line

13 Final report that it was likely that the T7 was destroyed by a SAM but who fired it remains uncertain in the absence of an individual or equipment

14 Pprune will move on to the next story..............

Hopefully this is not off topic, but here is RT's Abby Martin on the tragedy. You decide if this is propaganda or not: RT - Breaking The Set

(mind you this is a day old).

Let's All Remember This is an Aviation Board
 

Way too many posts that deal with the politics of the Ukraine conflict... let's keep this thread at least modestly focused on the disaster and the eventual investigation. That is what this board is supposed to be about.

It's remarkably nonsensical to suggest that just because this happened over Ukranian airspace the Ukranians are responsible for it. That's like saying Sept 11th happened in US airspace and so the US are responsible for it. Wrong! The people who decided to pull the trigger are responsible for this, and - whoever they happen to be - should be brought to justice.

Gentlemen,

We are getting nowhere with all of the "political comments". I have been trying to follow the events in Ukraine for some months and admittedly don't fully understand them.

However, this forum is designated Professional Pilots (which I am not, as my tag suggests, and why I very rarely post outside of JB). We should not, IMHO, be commenting on the politics of the situation, but on the mechanics of what actually happened.

Was it a "heavy" SAM? Is there proof of where it came from? How can the evidence related to the event be collected, and the bodies and belongings of 300 innocent souls be secured.

Other than that, the reason (as I understand it) is not, and has never been, for an "accident investigation" is not to apportion blame, but to "ensure that it never happens again", ATC and NOTAM procedures are worthy of considerations (and I speak as a Silver FF on a Mid-East airline here) but the politics of Ukraine, Russsia, etc really have no palce on PPRuNe - or am I I naive?

I dont disagree with why it may have taken a more northerly routing based on forecasts, but on that day there were no CB's to the north or south in the area, in fact it was almost clear skies I know because we were flying in the area at the time it happened, yesterday we were in the southern area and there where a few towering cumulus along the northern coast of the Black Sea tops 310

According to the President of the United States, it is yes to both questions.

Now why President Obama has not released the proof, is anyone's guess.

Going back to aviation aspects of the matter.

One thing I would really, really like to hear would be the ATC transcripts of communications with MH17 over Ukraine. Certainly, everyone should be interested in that.

Here is why I am interested in it.

1. ICAO, FAA, etc. excluded Crimea area from passenger traffic - and this was the route heavily used for Asia bound airplanes. The reasons were political - the West refusing to recognize Russian annexation of Crimea. As far as safety goes - apart from bureaucratic confusion who should be doing the ATC with Russia now considering Crimea its territory and Ukraine never agreeing to it, there never was any military activity over Crimea.

2. From flight-paths I have seen, MH and other carriers were still taking the Crimea routes nevertheless.

3. The moment heavy SAM action starts happening further north, they no longer take Crimea routes but fly right through the areas of SAM activities. Coincidence? Did they do it on their own or did someone "help" them to do make that decision?

4. The timing coincides with heavy Ukrainian military activities in the air - need to resupply their units on the border with Russia, to put "rebel" areas under siege and cut them off from possible resupply from Russia. Not a bad military tactics, but clearly leading to attempts to prevent that by rebels.

5. Regardless how one feels about Russia/Crimea etc. I think we should expect regulators to care for passengers, not play politics. If someone wants to get themselves involved in the conflict, he has a right to do that - with their own bodies and lives. But I doubt the MH17 passengers wanted to play a role in that conflict.

6. I doubt that the pilots can have complete view of the situation on the ground, even if they pay attention. Ironically, hearing of the SAM activities in Ukraine, relying on ICAO maps they could have assumed they needed to go further North, away from the Crimea exclusion zone, which was exactly the WRONG thing to do at the moment.

7. Is it possible that the Ukrainians wanted the civilian traffic there as shields for their military transports? Well, it is. From their point of view, it is a win-win situation, no matter what happens.

Anyone here has more info on the matter????

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...mh17.html?_r=0