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Once again, as a NTSB trained aircraft accident investigator I am appalled by the treatment of this crash site. This was not an accident, it was murder As this is not an accident, but a deliberate shoot down of a civil airliner Oh righto, as an NTSB trained accident investigator, (if that's actually true) tell me, do you conclude all your cases from stuff you've seen/heard on the TV/Internet and without being anywhere near the accident? Propoaganda feeds off the weak minded and their ill informed reinforcement |
picture of missile launch?
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/...49_634x396.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/...49_634x396.jpg For what its worth…. If you look closely at the trail near the ground it does a dog leg, is it consistent with a post launch correction? |
Re dogleg in ground to air smoke trail.
Probably more consistent with the normal effect of air currents on the smoke otherwise known as wind movements from the surface to higher altitude.
It seems that the conspiracy theorists are running amuck on this site. That doesn't apply to your post Mickjoebill. Given a choice of a conspiracy or a stuff-up the stuff-up is more likely. |
Why this aircraft?
Why not the one before, the one after, or all after a particular time? |
@mickjoebill
The weather on the daily mail image is quite different to the weather in the videos of the impact you can watch on youtube e.g:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdmM6pWoHso In all the videos there are flat extending cu, reports of cb further south also indicate convective activity that day. The daily mail image shows a sky without any convective clouds. The vegetation doesn't seem to match either. |
Capvermell Isn't there any chance that ATC Radar will have captured the missile's path from launch to impact with its target. Of course as the Ukrainians have not so far come up with anything then perhaps not. No doubt ATC monitoring facilities in that region are still primitive in the extreme. |
Let's hope that with all of the debate about whether MH17 and other traffic should even have been on that airway, that ICAO and IATA decide on a consistent plan to avoid hot airspace and airways that are proximate to hot zones. Afghan, Syrian! Libyan and Iraqi airspace should now be considered areas to avoid...even possibly Pakistan for overflight! particularly to their North and Western boundaries...this also puts the Pilots decision to accept the given CFP route into question..handing back authority to the crew again?
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Ukraine responsible for airspace safety: IATA
@Green Guard
Ukraine responsible for airspace safety: IATA Finally some meaningful discussion and data in the media. http://images.smh.com.au/2014/07/20/...pg-620x349.jpg KLM809 flight-paths are especially revealing. Clearly, they attempted (and twice flown) through what was officially closed airspace of the Crimea restriction zone, which was safe (but officially disallowed), and on other occasions flown the northern Donetsk route, which was officially open, but obviously very unsafe due to confirmed SAM activities. Coincidence, or did they try to steer off the Donetsk route but on some occasions were not allowed to. Therefore, situation was a complete FUBAR. Local ATC should have closed the airspace in situation such as this and ICAO should always be breathing down their necks when something like this goes on. Instead, it appears everyone was playing politics, as usual. Trying to punish Russia by excluding Crimea space to force the routes over Ukraine did not make any sense as the traffic had to enter Russia space anyway. If someone was determined to play such punishments, restricting all Russia east of Ukraine would have made much more sense. This is why blaming MH staff for this in any way is insane. How could they do things differently? By having their own intelligence crew for each country they are overflowing? Monitoring press reports about who and when captured SAMs? Yes, it's disgusting that any cretins would be shooting at things in the sky without knowing what they were shooting at. But, ironically, for them to know what they were shooting at, they would have to have full support of Russian radar and C&C facilities - meaning full Russian involvement and not silly proxy games. But, from the rebel point of view, (being bombed and shelled daily) it is easy to see why they would think that one would have to be completely NUTS to fly over that area. (p.s. - From the maps, next time I'm flying I would go for BA or AirFrance. They obviously sensed the FUBAR, even though were not legally required to do so, and routed clear of it. ) |
It now appears all of the bodies that have been recovered have been taken "somewhere" by pro-Russian forces in the area.
Associated Press journalists saw the pro-Russia rebels putting bagged bodies onto trucks at the crash site Saturday in rebel-held eastern Ukraine and driving them away. A later report now says they've been put into refrigeration: http://news.yahoo.com/rail-workers-b...1--sector.html |
Originally Posted by Capvermell
(Post 8571324)
Isn't there any chance that ATC Radar will have captured the missile's path from launch to impact with its target. Of course as the Ukrainians have not so far come up with anything then perhaps not. No doubt ATC monitoring facilities in that region are still primitive in the extreme..
There is more chance of Ukrainian military radar seeing the intercept, but whether they recorded the data is something else. Regarding Russian radar it depends on the distance from the border. Then considering detection of the SAM radar(s), that is unlikely as a ground-based detection system would need to be within a few miles of the battery. Best bet for detection would be AWACS but the transmission duration would probably be brief. |
Ukrainian military forces lost all radars at eastern Ukraine during conflict. some were captured, other destroyed. Uksatse lost one secondary radar.
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TC but are there radars still under their control nearby?
I think Ole's comment on the missile smoke trail is right, do you concur? |
i also feel sorry for Malaysian Airlines as they have had two major disasters not of their making! However ......... reading some of the reports about not just the shooting down of the aircraft, which I still believe may have been accidental, I am filled with revulsion at the way the 'authorities', for want of a better word, in Ukraine, have handled this, obstructing salvage efforts, not treating the deceased with even the minimum of respect, allowing looting ......... it is beyond belief. How appalling for those who have lost loved ones to see their bodies being treated in this way. MH17: Malaysia Airlines crash victims robbed of their dignity by rebels - Telegraph .... bodies were being left to rot amid the wreckage in temperatures of 85F (29.4C), ........ “It basically looks like the biggest crime scene in the world right now, guarded by a bunch of guys in uniform with heavy firepower who are quite inhospitable.” Ukrainian officials accused the rebels of destroying evidence of “international crimes” and allowing cash and credit cards to be stolen from the dead. Reverend John Da Costa, Dean of St. Mary and all Saints in Salisbury delivered a sermon at the memorial for the victims of the first massacre. Much of what he said applies to MH017. I fear that after the rhetoric from Obama and Cameron, a few verbal slaps on the wrist will be delivered to Mr. Putin for covertly supporting the rebels, and this will all die down and be forgotten. I'm not aware of any statement from Ban Ki Moon of the useless toothless UN taking on this - I may have missed it. David Cameron said the European Union needed to “reconsider its approach to Russia”, suggesting further sanctions are likely Amid growing condemnation Mr Hammond told the Telegraph: “It’s a fundamental principle of human decency that the victims and their possessions should be treated with dignity. I have seen reporting in the media which suggests that these norms are not being respected. We have no evidence that this is the case - but if it turns out to be so, those responsible can be sure they will be held to account for their crimes." A senior British source said: “Putin needs to feel some pain before he will change his behaviour.” I'm sure Putin is quaking in his boots. The Silence is Deafening Much of this applies today as it did 36 years ago. Nobody who holds sacred the dignity of human life can be anything but sickened at the events attending the crash.........But are we deafened with the voice of protest from nations which call themselves "civilised"? We are not. Like men in the story of the Good Samaritan, they "pass by, on the other side." One listens for loud condemnation. One listens and the silence is deafening. One listens for loud condemnation by the President of the United States. One listens for loud condemnation by the Pope, by the Chief Rabbi, by the Archbishop of Canterbury, by all who love the name of God. Again the silence is deafening. First, those who fired the guns. Who were they? Youths and men who, as likely as not. Men who went over to the other side in a few months were so indoctrinated that all they had previously learned was obliterated. Second, it is common knowledge that in large parts of the world violence is paraded on TV and cinema screens as entertainment. Films about war, murder, violence, rape devil-possession and the like are "good box-office". Peak viewing time is set aside for murderers from Belfast,, Palestine, Europe, Africa and the rest, to speak before an audience of tens of millions. Thugs are given full treatment, as if deserving of respect. Not so the victims' relations. Who else is to be blamed? The United Nations.......... I am sure they both bear blame in this. Each parade a pseudo-morality which, like all half-truths, is more dangerous than the lie direct. From the safety and comfort of New York and Geneva, high moral attitudes can safely be struck. For us in the sweat, the blood, the suffering, it is somewhat different. . The ghastliness of this ill-fated flight ...... will be burned upon our memories for years to come. For others, far from our borders, it is an intellectual matter, not one which affects them deeply. Here is the tragedy! The especial danger of Marxism is its teaching that human life is cheap, expendable, of less importance than the well-being of the State. But there are men who call themselves Christians who have the same contempt for other human beings, and who treat them as being expendable. . I have nothing but amazement at the silence of so many of the political leaders of the world.. |
Hi all.
Apols if this has been posted before, but a Kazakh-Russian acquaintance who I've been talking to about this ghastly tragedy has mentioned that a BUK missile is only accurate up to 6000 m if fired from a single launcher, and that to down a plane at 10000 meters needs a whole network of 3-4 stations working. Is this true? |
Originally Posted by ilesmark
(Post 8571597)
Hi all.
Apols if this has been posted before, but a Kazakh-Russian acquaintance who I've been talking to about this ghastly tragedy has mentioned that a BUK missile is only accurate up to 6000 m if fired from a single launcher, and that to down a plane at 10000 meters needs a whole network of 3-4 stations working. Is this true? It is in the nature of statistics that a single missile may get a hit. |
Pontius Indeed. Furthermore, in this circumstance the target was almost definitely not trying to evade the missile nor would it have had defensive aids, all adding to the PK.
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I'm assuming that Russia has a case to answer in criminal terms, for the supply of these things in the first instance Dangerous Escalation in Ukraine: Separatists May Have Captured More than 100 Missiles The self-defense forces of Donetsk People’s Republic seized control of a Ukrainian anti-air military installation, RIA Novosti reports. This report, from the end of last month, has had little play in the Western media, which has preferred to focus on reports from security sources that the rocket launchers (and tanks and APCs) used by the separatists were supplied by the Putin regime.
"The forces of Donetsk People’s Republic assumed control of A-1402 military base," the militia's representative said. According to him, it is an anti-aircraft missile forces facility equipped with Buk mobile surface-to-air missile systems. During the last several days the militia took control of two internal security troops' installations in eastern Ukraine. In a display of insensitivity extraordinary even for a Brussels bureaucrat, a European Union official has told journalists that the downing of the Malaysian flight over Eastern Ukraine "provides an opportunity" for the EU to have "direct contact for the first time" with pro-Russian separatists. The playing of politics over this, from all sides, is objectionable and an offront to the victims. I for one am disgusted over the political leverage MH17 is being used for. Note: * i have no particular love for Russia, the Ukraine, the EU and am only looking at MH17 as a tradgic incident with cause and circumstance. |
Originally Posted by ilesmark
(Post 8571597)
Hi all.
Apols if this has been posted before, but a Kazakh-Russian acquaintance who I've been talking to about this ghastly tragedy has mentioned that a BUK missile is only accurate up to 6000 m if fired from a single launcher, and that to down a plane at 10000 meters needs a whole network of 3-4 stations working. Is this true? Also keep in mind that it's designed to handle supersonic fighter jets (moving up to mach 2.5) so a 777 would be a very easy target. |
Originally Posted by flash8
(Post 8570730)
We need some objectivity here.
Their is no evidence that either the separatists nor their alleged Russian sponsors are responsible for this, and any reports by OSCE observers need to be taken within the context of their agenda, they are not as many imagine totally unbiased. I would also take with a pinch of salt the reports of drunk separatists shooting their guns whilst swigging from bottles as they loot passenger belongings. Somebody is pushing their agenda it seems. We even have the US arguing (quite rightly) for a full independent investigation and then in the next sentence stating that this was the fault (indirectly or directly) of the Russian Federation. What we don't have is any facts. We have some 'facts' * MH17 was shot down * Irregulars supported by Russia are preventing civilian access to the crash site and recovery of civilian bodies They are indisputable 'facts' for you. Russia / Putin could provide access to that site in minutes. If Russian special forces which are doubtless in large numbers 'close to the scene' were ordered to make that crash site available to recover bodies the irregulars would not dare intervene. The fact that Russia is not assisting even in just the humanitarian recovery of bodies of civilians means they deserve all the opprobrium people wish to give them. |
Interview with Michael Bociurkiw (OSCE) who is/was on the crash site:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESzmymN5JCc#t=69 Graphic summary of the crash site: Malaysian MH17 Airliner Crash Photos |
To all those wondering how the Americans claim to know what happened, try reading these Wiki references. Surface radar observations are not required.
MASINT Space-Based Infrared System Space Tracking and Surveillance System Trumpet (satellite) These systems would tell the US exactly where the missile was launched, track the missile in flight, observe the explosion, analyse the spectral traces of the missile efflux and the warhead detonation, and record the SAM radar emissions. The missile's speed and trajectory and the characteristics of the efflux, warhead and radar can all be used to identify the missile system. With all this information to hand, you can understand why Obama was in a position to point the finger only hours after the news broke. The accident site will yield more information; explosive residues, missile parts, etc, and those will be the sticks with which the international community beats Russia in due course. The US will almost certainly keep its MASINT secret because: 1) Those who already know what happened (e.g. Putin) will merely have their knowledge of US MASINT capabilities enhanced; 2) Those who disbelieve everything the US says will just say the US is lying; 3) Those who believe the US don't actually need to see the evidence in order to trust what Obama said. So I think there is little chance we'll ever see any of this highly-classified intelligence. But perhaps the conspiracy theorists might consider that the US case against the separatists is based on evidence more substantial than a few tweets, a Facebook post and a (allegedly) doctored telephone conversation. |
Originally Posted by SLFplatine
(Post 8571223)
Multiple reports indicate that it was known several days prior that the undisciplined irregular separatist/rebel army had acquired control of a SAM system capable of bringing down large aircraft at altitude. Now, if so, and if Kiev was aware (and there are multiple reports indicating they were) why they did not immediately close the airspace over the area within which said undisciplined irregular armed units were operating is a question they need to answer.:ugh:
Also as evidenced here by the 'professionals', pilots and civil aviation experts are not exactly knowledgeable about the capabilities of military hardware. Perhaps the military intel being passed to civil should be 'dumbed down' and instead of "the rebels have several Buk launchers" it should have been "the rebels are operating surface to air missiles which can destroy aircraft up to 72,000 ft". Then the FL320 restriction would have been seen as less than adequate. |
If Russian special forces which are doubtless in large numbers 'close to the scene' were ordered to make that crash site available to recover bodies the irregulars would not dare intervene. Kiev government took power through a coup, was opposed by most of the population of the Eastern Ukraine. Almost entire military in Eastern Ukraine rebelled against Kiev, and they have all the equipment that Western Ukraine has. What's more, Kiev had to pretty much build the leadership and new army (national guard) from scratch because most of them were Russians opposing Kiev and part of the problem was that cash-strapped Ukraine was not paying the soldiers for months. The only reason the rebels were not using SAMs before was because it took Kiev a lot of time to reassemble something resembling an air-force - the rebels had nothing useful to shoot at. It was totally childish by the West to treat the insurrection in Eastern Ukraine as bunch of drunk losers with peashooters and not trained military force equal to that of Kiev. Their equipment and training is at least at the level of Kiev forces. The fact that Kiev forces were scoring some victories lately (marked with heavily shelled towns) shows that Putin was actually bowing to pressure and stopped supporting the rebels in meaningful fashion. So, ironically, he probably is in this mess because he unplugged the rebels from C&C support. BUK system is intended as completely mobile platform intended to secure air-space for advancing tanks and rest of such toys. It can operate as part of integrated system, but its chief purpose is being an autonomous weapon protecting advancing columns on the ground. Interestingly, even Russia does not have effective countermeasures/control of BUK because they lost some of their advanced planes in Georgia because of BUKs smuggled from, (where else?) Ukraine. p.s. In today's speeches, Ukrainian politicians demanded advanced weaponry from the West so they can finally "bring order". |
Sad Pole,
I'm sure there is a lot of insight in what you write. And indeed Putin seemed to be pulling back from supporting the rebels: I wonder if missiles might have been either an intended counterbalance to the overall weakening of support or possibly a more locally instigated attempt to offset that pullback. I must suggest, though, that the Western picture of primitive ignorant drunken thugs rather than a disciplined military force is maybe less derived from prejudice than from endless video footage of drunk unwashed chaps in balaclavas waving AK47s and apparently under no coherent authority or acting in anything like a civilized manner... |
2 SadPole:
Yes, you are absolutely right, but: not pro-western comments are deleted usually. I have relatives in Cremea as well as in Donetsk area and know a bot more, then european and american "writers", but.... I have no right to write what I know about this case. |
I agree. Let them think they can manipulate the evidence when we already know. It's really ignorant to think this can be completely covered up so my concern is the same.
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Dutch relatives speaking on SKY news just now at Schipol Airport say
''Mr Putin - I want my children home -- I want to arrange their funerals - where are they? - they are rotting in field somewhere'' shameful |
Tsenis,
I agree it is easy to jump to conclusions and it does need verification. If it is indeed Krasnoarmeysk it should be easy for the person on Twitter making the claim to photograph the exact location seen with billboard, road etc. Other claims have been made about the transporter truck. Looks like the same transporter truck with Buk on back? Claimed to have been seen in a rebel convoy that entered Snizhne. http://media2.romaniatv.greenlab.ro/...2_30847600.jpg http://img.topky.sk/big/1383733.jpg Claimed to have been seen in convoy with a separatist truck although there doesn't seem to be any footage of the two together? The milita truck appears to be one of the separatist "Mad Max" type conversions? Max Max truck conversions at 0:26, 01:00 and in convoy at 02:46 |
If you are looking for an apology 26 years later, as a US citizen, I feel remorse my country made such a horrible mistake taking almost 300 innocent peoples lives and my heart goes out to the families. I wish we would have apologized more than paying $60 million dollars which shows responsibility, but I wish we would have shown more feeling.
I was a widow at 20 with a 3 week old son after a plane crash and while money can never replace the loss of a husband and father, atleast the US government gave $60 million to the families to try to make the lives easier for the loved ones lost. Financial help would have greatly helped me raise a child alone and I would have felt his life had value and frankly, Food, clothing and shelter would have been the apology I needed more than words. As a pilot, we have much responsibility to stay on course and not stray into hostile territory and to vigilantly monitor 121.5 and other frequencies when near danger (like in the case of Iran Air). Even in non war zones, like flying in the US, if I lose radios and fly into Washington DC and NY and do not follow procedures, there is a possibility, another terrorist act could be suspected and I may be shot down by my own country to prevent thousands from being killed. The job of an airline pilot is no joke and you have to know what you are doing. Flying through a war zone where planes have been shot down a few days ago is just irresponsible. Our airlines management must be aware of where they send their crew and aircraft and put them in harms way and not wait for the information to come to them. Airlines management must be proactive! In the case of Malaysian, other airlines understood not to fly in this area. There are layers of protection and everyone must do their part responsibly. My airline put out bulletins to all pilots, that we were prohibited from flying in the area Malaysian was in. That aside, anytime innocent people are killed tragically those responsible should, admit their mistakes like men instead of sub human beings below animals, show remorse and human feelings for their mistake and make restitution, not to mention cooperate as much as possible. |
Rottenray,
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsxabpVIAAALK9c.jpg:large That is the remains of an anti-tank guided missile. Looks like a Konkurs? That area must be littered with ordnance and remnants so no wonder that a journalist would come across it. |
Russia / Putin could provide access to that site in minutes. If Russian special forces which are doubtless in large numbers 'close to the scene' were ordered to make that crash site available to recover bodies the irregulars would not dare intervene. The fact that Russia is not assisting even in just the humanitarian recovery of bodies of civilians means they deserve all the opprobrium people wish to give them. Wtih the western media playing the propganda that it was Putin's finger on the button, if Russian forces were to become involved in military action to secure the site, then it throws up all kinds of allegations that Putin/Russia is taking over the site for whatever nefarious puproses anyone can wish to alledge. Further, it would become a international issue in that one state was sending military personnel into another state and would engender shreiks of declaration of war/state take over, with the resulting allegations against Putin/Russia. Putin's response has been that there must be a thorough and objective investigation, which in all respects, emotive issues and shrieks and finger pointing aside is actually correct. The site is on Ukranian soil, it is down to the Ukranians, no matter what faction to ensure that international incident investigators and recovery teams be given access. As per Putin, a thorough and objective investigation not including political leverage must take place. The media is shreiking from all sides with fantasy, allegation and in some case downright lies and fiction. This has NO place in an investigation into the loss of a civil aircraft with the souls on board. Using this for political leverage is an offront to the victims and families of the passengers and crew. |
Gentlemen, why not to talk technical issues (or issues that may be related to facts) rather than emotions and politics?
I am not sure the recorders will help if it were a ground-to-air missile. Studying the debris may only help if it were not the "Buk" system involed, but a larger one like C-200/300. The locations of the latter ones are known well enough and this could narrow the scope. But the Buks are owned by all the sides currently blaming each other. A couple of days ago the US officials vaguely mentioned they had some proofs that the launch was triggered from the territory controlled by the separatists (village or town of Snezhnoye). Could all this stuff be put on the table? If they refer to the early warning satellite system (which indeed works 24/7), its accuracy is in (big) question. I assume that the 90-95% probability ellipsoid is measured out in tens of miles and thus could also cover the locations of some Buk launch systems of the regular army. The Russian MoD reported shortly after the accident that their stations of radio-intelligence recorded the Buk radar signals operating in different combat modes, the signals coming from several Buk complexes arranged in a networks. They were, for sure, the army ones (because only army has the networks of them). It is also known that they were relocated to the conflict area shortly before the tragedy. Actually means nothing, only proving that the teams were either training or testing the systems. If there were some LEO satellite photos ("spy sats") that pictured the launch, this would raise another question: how could it happen that the camera was looking at this particular location at this particular moment? The constellation of those sats is not covering the whole earth area on the 24/7 basis, at all. They are orbiting the planet, not hanging on a geostationary orbit or a highly-elliptical one. Thus, I am afraid that totally convincing "technical" proofs would not be found. |
Dutch relatives speaking on SKY news just now at Schipol Airport say ''Mr Putin - I want my children home -- I want to arrange their funerals - where are they? - they are rotting in field somewhere'' shameful It is shameful that the media frenzy, devoid of facts, is playing politics. Ukraine is a separate state to Russia, Putin has no control over Ukraine. The Ukranians are not retards, they are not some alternative species, they are not incapable people. The correct statement should be: ''Mr Yatsenyuk - I want my children home -- I want to arrange their funerals - where are they? - they are rotting in field somewhere'' The media behaviour on this is not only disgusting it is highly dangerous and inflammatory. |
Originally Posted by stuckgear
(Post 8571917)
if Russian forces were to become involved in military action to secure the site, then it throws up all kinds of allegations that Putin/Russia is taking over the site for whatever nefarious puproses anyone can wish to alledge.
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the responsibility should be shared between those who shot down the plane, those who improperly trained them and those who allowed the plane to fly that corridor because they sure were informed of aforementioned two facts
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Originally Posted by tsenis
There are counter claims that the alleged video was shoot in Krasnoarmeysk which is controlled by Ukrainian government since May.
Transport of BUK System to Russia filmed – really? After some geolocation work I tend to believe this version of the story, although reluctantly since I know both parties are engeaged in a dirty Pr war. Any way I do not base conclutions on videos & pictures posted here and there without verification tsenis, the Krasnoarmeysk claim has already been disproved on other websites. You can see a low rooftop in the back ground, meaning the terrain slopes and there are trolley bus cables visible behind the billboard. Krasnoarmeysk (Ukrainian held) sits on a flat plain and doesn't have a trolley bus line. Krasnodon (rebel held) sits on a hill and does have a trolley bus line. |
Until very recently on another thread we were debating the issue of Heightened Security Alert, emergency laws and measures. It seems fat lot of good it did making sure all air travellers had charged up batteries for their lap tops, tablets, mobile phones, shavers and all manner of other electronic gizzmos. All the spooks must have been so busy with this nonsense they overlooked the obvious, the real shooting war going on over there in Eastern Ukraine. Should they also not be held accountable for this tragedy.
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Speed of disclosure, impartiality, and co-operation is what this incident desperately needs right now. Primarily for the sakes of the victims' relatives. |
Remains of missile found in the vicinity of the crash site(?)
Rottenray has in post #528 a link to a site showing remains of a missile found at the crash scene(?):
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsxabpVIAAALK9c.jpg:large He has the opinion that the picture shown has been photoshopped and gives a number of reasons for his standpoint. I do not know whether the picture is photoshopped, but I am convinced that the missile shown is NOT a SA11. I have compared the missile shown with a very clear picture of a SA11 from the following link: Buk missile system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Look at the fins for example - on the missile shown in the first link they are almost as high as the diameter of the missile itself. On the next link (showing a genuine SA11!) they are about half the size of the missile diameter. And there are no external fasteners on a SA11, and although hard to judge, I should think that the first missile is much smaller that a SA11. I also think that a missile falling from more that 10000 meters would show much more damage than can be seen on the picture. Whether the missile shown is an anti-tank missile as suggested by TEEEj in post #564, I do not know. I do think that the B777 was shot down, but with a missile not in any way connected with the remains shown in the first link. |
I don't know if others have yet seen it, but FR24 are now providing access to a form of playback.
The flight appears to have reached FL310 overhead Bielefeld in western Germany long before cruising across Poland at that altitude. Upon entering Ukraine airspace over an hour later, it climbed to FL330 and appeared to remain at that altitude for over an hour before it was downed. On that evidence, any spin on that story that the aircraft was instructed to descend from FL350 to FL330 "only minutes before" it was downed would appear to be extremely questionable. I do not for one minute believe that any major power ordered or manipulated the shootdown, but it is surely an international crime by unknown individuals working for major powers that these types of weapon were knowingly and recently entrusted to thugs and incompetents and thereby civilian traffic was permitted to be routinely and unknowingly risked daily. Since the major powers like to play politics while loved ones lie rotting far from home with no-one admitting anything, I would like to know whether it is Aviation War Risks underwriters or Aviation Non-War Risks underwriters who are preparing to shoulder this loss ? Or will they and their advisors also be playing politics tomorrow Monday morning in the City? Had any underwriters already designated this airspace as a war zone ? I heard this weekend that there are over 40 current wars being waged in this world. How many get flown over daily as routine? I wonder how many are designated as actual war zones by aviation underwriters who are supposed to be the risk experts? |
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