French airports to be closed in the North of the country
 

Lille LFQQ has closed already
Paris LFPG/PO/will close this evening at 2100Z media report. May be for a couple of days. Other airports in the North are /will close also

This site which normally shows the area surrounding Heathrow has changing views which show how deserted the skies are over the UK and Scandinavia.

AirNav RadarBox - Screen Shot refreshed Every minute

Here in North Hampshire we have just had a wokka over the village and the odd GA aircraft. Have had to pour myself a glass of wine to take the sulphur taste away.

Over-reaction claim as flights grounded until at least 7am Friday - VIDEO - Yorkshire Post

JAS

BBC reported Eurocontrol now talking 48 hrs min. Update from them at 1830z, France has 24 closed airports and counting.

So let's start debating.

Over reaction or the right move?

I think some people will naturally say it's been an over reaction because they haven't seen the sky darken with the ash cloud!!

I trust that the proffessionals have made the right decision on this one.

Carjockey...
 

Perhaps stick to driving cars?

Rather than simply posting a few quotes, either do your research properly, or actually understand how jet engines work, including the various temperatures at different stages of their operation, and then perhaps you may be qualified to dispute Lompaseos post. :=

Your statement about a 500kt sand blaster makes more sense, although more like 250KIAS in reality.

ACARS - In a way we will never know for sure...as it would just have needed a repeat (at the very least) of the BA 747 incident back in the 80''s.

Here's the source of this all. (Don't know if this picture has been posted here before)

http://visir.is/misc/article_picture...ef=AR&NoBorder

Vsir.is - Mynd me grein

So what's the difference between this very fine volcanic dust and the very fine sand which gets blown in from the sahara after sand storms? Presumably both are equally as abrasive and judging by the quantities accreting on my car in the past, in probably just as high a concentration.

Maybe some of you remember - about 4-6 weeks ago european ATC had a trial of closing airspace due to volcanic ash. There were pages and pages of NOTAMs all marked with "Excercise only" about an ash cloud approaching Europe from somewhere in the SW. Maybe Canaries or Azores, I forgot.

Seems like they were well prepared and had tried out the contingency plans, but I do agree with some of the posts above - maybe it is a bit too much caused partly by preset minds due to the exercise.
On the other hand - better safe than sorry! I'd hate to have my engines flame out on me, the winshield going blind, and then try to put it down somewhere...

But as I am off until monday, I will just sit in my chair and watch the developments -

Nic

Not really, the ash particals will still be hitting the airframe at TAS regardless of what IAS is

Point taken!
 

But it would still be 250KIAS!

Well, its not just that is it? you would have to check the internals to find out what exactly what damage has been done as we have no idea what the ash will do. And its not just the engines that could be damaged.

There's a fine layer of dust covering my car and the other half's, and all the garden furniture..... I wonder is this the Icelandic ash depostion - sure looks grim enough to gum up the works of a turbofan, glad I'm not up there today.



UPDATE 1728z:

Erm, no...... the missus tells me that's the crap she's been begging me to clean for a couple of weeks....
:eek:

volcanic ash ?
 

Health and safety gone mad! Tried to go to Jersey VFR this afternnoon from South coast area. Severe clear blue skies for low level VFR traffic. Not a bit of ash to be seen.
They have closed the Zone not even S/VFR available, you can't even do circuits from the loacal Aero Club. Complete and utter overreaction for low level traffic in the UK FIR' s.

I'm off to the boozer to enjoy a few pints and enjoy the spring clear blue skies sunshine.....

cessnapete, as I have said innumerable times already today: Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. If you spent some time flying through the stuff (i.e: across Britain or transAtlantic) then your aircraft would notice the effects.

I doubt that there's enough ash aronud to actually bring an aircraft down due to engine failure or anything like that, but it's better to be safe than sorry. I know that all the people complaining that this is an overreaction would be the first to complain about 'underaction' should anything go wrong due to aircraft ingesting ash.

Booking Engines
 

I bit off subject I know but it would appear the airlines were knew what could / would happen well before we did.

I'm trying to get back to the UK from DXB on Tuesday next! Yeah well one lives in hope

Using the EK booking engine early yesterday - all flights were blocked out for days next week, thought it was a glitch & gave up. BA was also showing prices in the stratosphere (like the ash) & the rest were either zero availability or silly prices right through next week.

Now conclude what I thought was a glitch (or some event I didn't know of) was obviously known about by the airlines well before Joe Public.

Now, checking all the other main players sites (BA, GF, QR, VS etc) everything is zero availability until at least Monday (GF) & eye watering fares thereafter; for pretty obvious reasons.

So I tried KLM & Air France all of which came up with quite sensible fares if I gave my (real) destination as BRS, but very much the same result as LHR if I gave CDG or AMS as my destination. From this it appears changing fares on a website on a point to point basis is relatively easy but (assume) the problems start with connections.

Just for the record the solution to my problem was a one way LoCo Air Arabia to ATH and EZY to LGW about 1/8 of the normal cost (well plus a hotel in ATH)

Ils27left
 

The difference is surely that Heathrow, where the airspace is closed, is approximately 1000 miles from Eyjafjallajoekull and any ash will be heavily diluted whilst the BA009 flew close to Mount Galunggung where the density the ash cloud was relatively very intense. It will be interesting to see the analysese of ash densities when they are published.:ok:

Affects jet engines but......
 

Hello, I've not been on here for a very long while, I would like to ask any of the qualified PPL's or commercial pilots on here whether or not the ash particles would substantially affect a prop plane of any kind as a pose to a jet engined plane?

If it would not, i presume because a prop is a completely different process than a jet engine, do the airline companies not have any form of contingency process whereby they can use larger multi prop planes instead, similar to the ones that, for example, British Airways use for some regional uk flights etc?.

Just a thought.

Kind Regards to you all

Nathan.

"It will be interesting to see the analysese of ash densities when they are published."

It will indeed. It'll also be interesting to see what level of density is assumed to be acceptable; (thinks: is there already an ICAO figure for this)?

England wins the Ashes !!
 

For info, a small prop plane flew low, going north over Wigan Lancashire around 4.30pm. Only one I've seen, usually the sky is full of high altitude jets, and a few low level light a/c & helicopters here.

Anyway, this may be just the start. BBC news says volcanic activity is increasing, and have a look at this "good news" from the Telegraph.

Volcano ash chaos: previous eruption 'lasted more than a year' - Telegraph

Professor Bill McGuire, of the Aon Benfield Hazard Research Centre at University College London, said the previous eruption, in December 1821, lasted until January 1823.
He said air travel could be curtailed repeatedly if the current eruption lasted the same amount of time.
However, he added: "There is no way of knowing for certain how long this eruption will last based on previous events. The level of disruption would also depend on how much gas and ash is produced."
The most notable previous example of Icelandic volcanic activity causing problems for Britain was in 1783, when an eruption at Laki sent a huge toxic cloud of sulphur across Western Europe, killing an estimated 23,000 Britons.
The cloud first reached Britain on 22 June and was followed by reports of a choking smog containing sulphur dioxide and sulphuric acid which attacked the lungs of its victims.
The amount of gas produced was enough to cause increase temperatures for a whole summer.

Regards to all affected.

Lid

Hey Cessna,

Be thankful someone else has put a stop to your getthereitus.

Can never be too safe.

The plume certainly is not very dense, it only shows up on channel 3 (short wave infra-red) of NOAA 15 AVHRR @ 1600Z
That doesn't of course mean it's not dangerous though.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i1...rald/plume.jpg

We've played safe this afternoon and kept our spotter plane grounded and safely wrapped up in the hangar.

Oxford Airport was closed until approx 3pm. Now open to VFR only max 2500 ft.

Had one bizjet leave at 4pm. 2400ft to Biggin. Saw one PA28 fly the overhead. Other than that it's been a lovely peaceful afternoon here!

Having flown through a lot of Sahara Dust, and a small amount of volcanic dust, the most noticeable difference is the abrasion of windshield glass. It becomes micro-pitted, almost looks frosted, after volcanic dust. No effect noticed after Sahara dust.
And forecasting where the effects will be noticed is not easy either.
I remember during an eruption of St Vincent, that we all went out east to avoid the obvious plume that was being carried off to the west of St Vincent on the southeast trades. Imagine the headscratching that took place when volcanic dust came floating into Barbados, over 100 miles east of St Vincent, on the southeast trades.
What had happened is that the dust had left westbound, and risen through a masking layer of cirrus, to pick up the upper level westerlies, ride several hundred miles eastward whilst drifting back down, to hitch a ride back into Barbados on the southeast trades. So here came volcanic dust from the east with the nearest volcano on that side being several thousand miles away.
Go figure. :confused:

Mirror site for Radarvirtuel
 

Hi All

Volcano kill my provider and isp :)

I have mirror site here with no delay RadarVirtuel.com
Use firefox or google chrome better than IE.

Regards
Laurent
LFRN

Where is the Ash?
 

I thought the volcanic ash was in the Jet stream streaming across the north of scotland? Can someone tell me how that would affect a VFR flight at 2500ft flying across the south coast of England?

Animation here showing time lapse , over five hours , of traffic this morning as flights were grounded

http://i42.tinypic.com/2valeuw.gif

Notice the exodus to the SW in the final few frames.

closing airspace entirely?
 

If volcanic activity prevails for a while perhaps it will re-stimulate looking at Zeppelin technology.

I hope so. I'd like to go a bit slower, enjoy the view, some fresh cooked fine food, good books, iSomething and cultural social interactions. :8

dwshimoda

Neither you nor I (or anyone else for that matter), know exactly what degree of damage an aircraft would suffer if it were to fly through such a cloud.

To evaluate this all relevant factors would need to be known, vis: size and composition of dust particles, duration of flight through these particles, and effects of these particles on the aircraft and it's engines at a given speed and altitude/attitude.

Since these factors are not known (to anyone), common sense dictates that we should not put any aircraft into such a situation.

Don't you agree?

CJ

Not sure if it's the same one but only 1 aircraft on PlanePlotter over the UK right now, HGR857A (G-FBFI) flying at around 2000ft just south of biggin hill. Not something you see everyday..that's for sure!

That's Bernie

Baldrick`s opinion for the cause of the Great War was

"I heard that it started when a bloke called Archie Duke shot an ostrich 'cause he was hungry".

Mine for shutting down the UK airspace is so that the whole nation is now stuck with nowhere to go but to sit in front of the box and watch the Three Magi.

Still one commercial service operating aparently...
 

Seems one comercial service is still operating - the Glasgow to Oban sea plane. :)

I still feel it is an overreaction. Yes, it is unsafe to fly inside a volcanic ashcloud, we've seen the flameouts and damage.
Yes, it is wise to avoid flying into severe concentrations of the stuff and it is wise to have a safety margin.

But a total shutdown of aviation? Without any scientific debate on concentration levels and dispersion?

It is akin to the world wide panic over all sorts of supposedly lethal flu strains that caused nothing more than a ripple in the illness levels, yet caused a lot of stress and a huge strain on health services.

I'm afraid the "better safe than sorry" attitude does not cut it. Because the apparently safe decision may and will have unforeseen aftereffects that may be quite detrimental to safety levels. Like a lack of trust in the next stern warnings. One can only shout "wolf" so often before it becomes ineffective.

Solid particles in the air do nothing to improve engine and component life. But why the panic? Why the shutdown of a large part of airspace? What defines the boundary of safe vs unsafe sky? It is all too fuzzy for my liking, too much "we know what is good for you so don't ask awkward questions".

I am not convinced that it is not a huge overreaction. I would love to be convinced otherwise, but doubt it will happen. We are becoming so docile with the constant war on terror that numbs the mind, takes away liberties and destroys critical thinking that this goes virtually unchallenged..

Maybe we will get another "permanent resident " on the sigificant WX-chart-just like "Etna":)

Continueing problem? Jet Stream
 

Have a look at this site - Jet stream predictions - not good. Use nudge back / forward buttons to view jetstream for next few days.

http://www.metcheck.com/V40/UK/FREE/jetstream.asp

Lid

I hope this is not a repetitive info:

you have to distinguish between ash/dust (which are hard particles and CO type and other gaseous emissions which are preceding the cloud of hard particles. Pollution of air with volcanic gases at high altitudes will inhibit normal combustion of any air breathing engine. Gas wave precedes the dust. So a mere presence of additional pollutants in the air will also be a reason to close the airspace, even before the dust cloud arrives.

The flu strain in its first year was less lethal than it could have been, therefore a volcanic dust is safe for a a jet engine to ingest.

Yes I can see the logic in that.