Upset on AA Flight
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The event reminded me of the approach and landing at Juneau. As I recall, the plane went (approx) south, then did a neat 180 while dropping, eventually landing (approx) north. Seemed as if we were standing on our left wing. Watching a similar approach --from the ground this time-- it looked a lot less scary.
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Let me get this straight Lomecevak, you tee up here on PPRuNe with the title of the thread of “Upset on AA flight” with the date, flight number, departure airport and arrival airport with an allegation of two knife edge 90 degree bank angles, a loss of 2000 feet at FL 200, "audio alarms" etc, etc, etc. Serious stuff to be putting on a public board about a major US air carrier. What you don’t think someone from the FAA sniffs around here to pickup little tidbits? Oh I’m sure the Super 80 Fleet Manager for American has already talked to the Captain about your “revelation.” Wouldn’t be surprised if the flight data recorder wasn’t pulled over this too just to keep AA Legal and the FAA happy.
You just want to “chat” about it here on PPRuNe just amongst us ol boys, hush hush, keep on the QT etc. You’re funny!
In answer to your question about just audio alarms, there are none. All alarms on the MD-80 are an audio alarm followed by female voice telling you what is wrong. On the MD-80 you can’t have one without the other.
We have all these “Walter Mittys” running around here on PPRuNe wring their hands every time a plane does a go around or a fire truck follows a plane to the gate. What’s the next thread “Flight Attendant Drops Glass In First Class Galley?”
Lomecevak I’ll give the crew the benefit of the doubt by saying I’ll put my family on any American Airlines flight, any day, anytime.
You just want to “chat” about it here on PPRuNe just amongst us ol boys, hush hush, keep on the QT etc. You’re funny!
In answer to your question about just audio alarms, there are none. All alarms on the MD-80 are an audio alarm followed by female voice telling you what is wrong. On the MD-80 you can’t have one without the other.
We have all these “Walter Mittys” running around here on PPRuNe wring their hands every time a plane does a go around or a fire truck follows a plane to the gate. What’s the next thread “Flight Attendant Drops Glass In First Class Galley?”
Lomecevak I’ll give the crew the benefit of the doubt by saying I’ll put my family on any American Airlines flight, any day, anytime.
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AAL_Silverbird,
Don't shoot the messenger. I've never knowingly met Lomcevak, but I trust the people who vouch for him, implicitly. Lomcevak speaks highly of the friend who reported the incident. That's good enough for me to say there is a case to answer, something to be explained - even if the explanation proves to be mundane.
I don't trust eyewitness accounts of what an aircraft did from non-aviation people - or at best I take them with a large pinch of salt.
However, if a *credible* witness makes a report of what *people* did - witness and 4 colleagues, frequent fliers, all 'startled', and CC stating they had 'never experienced anything like it' - then yeah, ask the questions.
Let's face it, on occasion 'incidents' do get... not exactly hushed-up, but perhaps not taken sufficiently seriously. Seem to remember reading a recent ?Norwegian? report of a ?757? crew pulling serious G at a preposterously low level, following a seriously unstabilised approach... was initially treated as 'probably tea with no biccies in CPs office' rather then the bloody near thing it really was...
R1
Don't shoot the messenger. I've never knowingly met Lomcevak, but I trust the people who vouch for him, implicitly. Lomcevak speaks highly of the friend who reported the incident. That's good enough for me to say there is a case to answer, something to be explained - even if the explanation proves to be mundane.
I don't trust eyewitness accounts of what an aircraft did from non-aviation people - or at best I take them with a large pinch of salt.
However, if a *credible* witness makes a report of what *people* did - witness and 4 colleagues, frequent fliers, all 'startled', and CC stating they had 'never experienced anything like it' - then yeah, ask the questions.
Let's face it, on occasion 'incidents' do get... not exactly hushed-up, but perhaps not taken sufficiently seriously. Seem to remember reading a recent ?Norwegian? report of a ?757? crew pulling serious G at a preposterously low level, following a seriously unstabilised approach... was initially treated as 'probably tea with no biccies in CPs office' rather then the bloody near thing it really was...
R1
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Actually, this just sounds like a visual approach to runway 26 from the north and east, over the Sandia Mountains. The flight would be up at around 14,000 feet until about ten-fifteen miles from the airport, then a left turn parallel the peaks as you cross into the valley, followed by a close-in right to final, as the airport is only a few miles from the hills. I've done the straight-in visual to Rwy 26 in a MU-2, and it's pretty "interesting" even from the cockpit.
And for what it's worth, while I respect and appreciate the professionalism of ALL major airline crews, it IS a well-worn perception amongst us controllers that SWA crews in general are more willing to do the "unusual".
Thanks guys!
And for what it's worth, while I respect and appreciate the professionalism of ALL major airline crews, it IS a well-worn perception amongst us controllers that SWA crews in general are more willing to do the "unusual".
Thanks guys!
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I'm with AAL_Silverbird and others here. Both the profile and the common winds at ABQ lead to 'unusual' approaches, which are actually quite usual. A non-pilot pax is in no position to judge an "upset" from the cabin however experienced he/she may consider themself to be. The alleged bank angles and RoD are simply not credible - there would be a smoking hole somewhere.
If a pax looks out the window and sees nothing but ground, it is impossible to judge the angle. And if the airplane is being tossed around (again common at ABQ), adrenalin will impair the judgement even more.
Without some more detailed and knowledgeable accounts, I'd write this off as a non-event, even if it did shake up some friends.
The Flight Data Recorder will have long since been overwritten. Since there was no damage or injuries, this was not a reportable incident and the airplane simply continued its schedule after a normal (if bumpy) arrival.
If a pax looks out the window and sees nothing but ground, it is impossible to judge the angle. And if the airplane is being tossed around (again common at ABQ), adrenalin will impair the judgement even more.
Without some more detailed and knowledgeable accounts, I'd write this off as a non-event, even if it did shake up some friends.
The Flight Data Recorder will have long since been overwritten. Since there was no damage or injuries, this was not a reportable incident and the airplane simply continued its schedule after a normal (if bumpy) arrival.
Last edited by PaperTiger; 31st Jul 2003 at 00:39.
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vector4fun
"And for what it's worth, while I respect and appreciate the professionalism of ALL major airline crews, it IS a well-worn perception amongst us controllers that SWA crews in general are more willing to do the "unusual".
Just because a crew is very capable of doing the unusual, it is the professional crew that takes the passengers comfort and safety into account and declines. This in no way reflects on the ability of the crew to "max perform" the aircraft in a slam dunk or whatever you consider unusual, but it does reflect on their maturity and professionalism. Just becacause a controller asks you to do something has nothing to do with what should actually be done. All too often crews attempt to do things controllers ask that should have been declined right up front.
As I understand it, commercial aviation is essentially going from point A to point B. It is not max performing an aircraft to the edges of its envelope which commercial airliners were never designed to do, especially and most importantly with passengers on board.
Vector4fun, I would be interested in what "willing to do the unusual" means.
"And for what it's worth, while I respect and appreciate the professionalism of ALL major airline crews, it IS a well-worn perception amongst us controllers that SWA crews in general are more willing to do the "unusual".
Just because a crew is very capable of doing the unusual, it is the professional crew that takes the passengers comfort and safety into account and declines. This in no way reflects on the ability of the crew to "max perform" the aircraft in a slam dunk or whatever you consider unusual, but it does reflect on their maturity and professionalism. Just becacause a controller asks you to do something has nothing to do with what should actually be done. All too often crews attempt to do things controllers ask that should have been declined right up front.
As I understand it, commercial aviation is essentially going from point A to point B. It is not max performing an aircraft to the edges of its envelope which commercial airliners were never designed to do, especially and most importantly with passengers on board.
Vector4fun, I would be interested in what "willing to do the unusual" means.
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Dudly,
Apparantly, you have an "axe" to grind of some sort. I started my statement with an explicit appreciation for the professionalism of ALL the major airline crews I work with. I don't know whether that "axe" is with ATC or SWA...
That said, and since YOU ask, it's GENERALLY easier to:
Get a SWA crew to switch runways on a five- ten mile visual final.
It's easier to get a SWA crew to change departure runways. (rather than wait ten minutes while company comes up with a new set of "numbers")
It's easier to get a SWA crew to turn a visual base inside the FAF. (short approach)
It's easier to get a SWA crew out on a rolling takeoff with traffic 2 mile final.
It's generally easier to give a SWA crew a rather odd WX re-route due to TS. They generally accept the fact we're doing the best we can to get them safely on their way. Even if that means starting out SW 100 miles to go E.
And, yes, it's easier to "slam-dunk" a SWA flight. Perhaps they get more practice?
That's just a few off the top of my head. Now, I've seen pilots from ALL major airlines do similar things, but not often. And just as often, they complain, so we try not to ask. Perhaps the SWA crews just don't have time to call and chat with 20- 30 minute turns?
Apparantly, you have an "axe" to grind of some sort. I started my statement with an explicit appreciation for the professionalism of ALL the major airline crews I work with. I don't know whether that "axe" is with ATC or SWA...
That said, and since YOU ask, it's GENERALLY easier to:
Get a SWA crew to switch runways on a five- ten mile visual final.
It's easier to get a SWA crew to change departure runways. (rather than wait ten minutes while company comes up with a new set of "numbers")
It's easier to get a SWA crew to turn a visual base inside the FAF. (short approach)
It's easier to get a SWA crew out on a rolling takeoff with traffic 2 mile final.
It's generally easier to give a SWA crew a rather odd WX re-route due to TS. They generally accept the fact we're doing the best we can to get them safely on their way. Even if that means starting out SW 100 miles to go E.
And, yes, it's easier to "slam-dunk" a SWA flight. Perhaps they get more practice?
That's just a few off the top of my head. Now, I've seen pilots from ALL major airlines do similar things, but not often. And just as often, they complain, so we try not to ask. Perhaps the SWA crews just don't have time to call and chat with 20- 30 minute turns?
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Vector4fun, you beat me to it.....the normal app. to 26 at ABQ can seem very odd from the back, maneuvering around with the terrain close by on the right, and steeply descending onto the 3 degree path. Remember, folks, ABQ is hot and high, and you can't use 'brakes with flaps on the 80 (as I recall - I'm 777 now), so the gear would be a good idea to keep the speed under control.
Nope, nothing abnormal here....but it goes to show how nervous fliers perceptions can be different from those driving. That's why we used to explain the HKG IGS 13 to the pax before we landed...or why we brief the pax before t/o from Orange County...
There would also be an ATC report for any emergency, and diving from 20k to 2k would certainly trigger a response from ATC!!! Oh, BTW, 2k would put you into the rocks....
Any FDR recording of a parameter exceedence is locked-in at AA, and triggers an investigation if you don't put it in the book - I know a guy that was caught out by that on the 80.
We've been thru' the SWA thing before....it's just their way, nothing to it as a story. It's v. important to their modus operandi to shave time wherever they can (they can also pick-up a trip if they save flight time, my neighbour says!), and I believe they have a higher tailwind limit than we do on the 80. That's a big advantage at places like ELP, with the terminal right at one end of the field. Land towards it, depart away from it. Also, the 80 is limited to idle reverse 'cos of rudder blanking, and has a cr@ppy wing and crummy stopping performance with a high Vref to boot. A stable approach from far out is many Capt's "comfort zone" on it....and we have 300-odd of them, so it's the AA a/c most ATC folks deal with domestically. Just my opinions....
Nope, nothing abnormal here....but it goes to show how nervous fliers perceptions can be different from those driving. That's why we used to explain the HKG IGS 13 to the pax before we landed...or why we brief the pax before t/o from Orange County...
There would also be an ATC report for any emergency, and diving from 20k to 2k would certainly trigger a response from ATC!!! Oh, BTW, 2k would put you into the rocks....
Any FDR recording of a parameter exceedence is locked-in at AA, and triggers an investigation if you don't put it in the book - I know a guy that was caught out by that on the 80.
We've been thru' the SWA thing before....it's just their way, nothing to it as a story. It's v. important to their modus operandi to shave time wherever they can (they can also pick-up a trip if they save flight time, my neighbour says!), and I believe they have a higher tailwind limit than we do on the 80. That's a big advantage at places like ELP, with the terminal right at one end of the field. Land towards it, depart away from it. Also, the 80 is limited to idle reverse 'cos of rudder blanking, and has a cr@ppy wing and crummy stopping performance with a high Vref to boot. A stable approach from far out is many Capt's "comfort zone" on it....and we have 300-odd of them, so it's the AA a/c most ATC folks deal with domestically. Just my opinions....
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Raamjet,
Speaking for myself, that was actually a very educational post about the MD-80. I didn't know about the speedbrake vs flaps restriction.
Question: Did I understand correctly that the crew is not supposed to use more than idle reverse during roll-out? Is there a speed below which more than idle thrust is approved?
You mentioned ELP; I spent several years out there. Some of the best all-time "slam-dunks" I ever saw were the NASA pilots who visited for STA training. I once saw a T-38, from 15 miles, FL210, 520 kts gs.; land straight in rwy 22, no overhead. Probably not even a stretch in comparison to what they practice up a White Sands. Oh, and try explaining to an airline crew on 12 mile final that they're actually following traffic 2 miles behind at FL170. Best to not even mention it....
Speaking for myself, that was actually a very educational post about the MD-80. I didn't know about the speedbrake vs flaps restriction.
Question: Did I understand correctly that the crew is not supposed to use more than idle reverse during roll-out? Is there a speed below which more than idle thrust is approved?
You mentioned ELP; I spent several years out there. Some of the best all-time "slam-dunks" I ever saw were the NASA pilots who visited for STA training. I once saw a T-38, from 15 miles, FL210, 520 kts gs.; land straight in rwy 22, no overhead. Probably not even a stretch in comparison to what they practice up a White Sands. Oh, and try explaining to an airline crew on 12 mile final that they're actually following traffic 2 miles behind at FL170. Best to not even mention it....
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Yep, flown into ABQ several times! Very high terrain to the east and north east as I recall. Not inconeivable to encounter some kind of pseudo mountain wave type of effect on the slam-dunk descent if the winds are right. If it was easy they`d let chimps and children do it!
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MD-80 thrust reversers are canted slightly inboard at the top to reduce FOD while in reverse. When pulling anymore than 1.30 EPR on landing roll out the exhaust from the upper thrust reverser bucket will disturb the airflow over the rudder. When conditions are right this can induce a possible loss of directional control at slower speeds on rollout.
Normal procedure on landing is to pull anywhere from idle reverse to 1.30 EPR until 80 knots. At 80 knots slowly start reducing thrust and come out of reverse at the 60 knot call.
Normal procedure on landing is to pull anywhere from idle reverse to 1.30 EPR until 80 knots. At 80 knots slowly start reducing thrust and come out of reverse at the 60 knot call.
Last edited by AAL_Silverbird; 2nd Aug 2003 at 07:01.
Déjà vu
I followed this thread with interest from the beginning and as it dipped back and forth between slanging match and good insight into how people’s perceptions vary. Anyone who comes through here regularly would know that Lomcevak’s credentials are as Danny described, and that the post was not a wind-up.
I tried to put myself in the position of Loncevak’s friend, a frequent flyer who may never have experienced anything more than moderate turbulence and the gradual descents, and I wondered what sort of rate of descent in a commercial jet it would take to alarm me. I am 58, not as frequent a flyer as I used to be, but I was brought up around airplanes and have flown in a fair assortment of aircraft, the widest range being whatever was available in Peru and the Amazon in the fifties, sixties and seventies. That covers from Stearmans through PBYs, DC-3/4/6s, Twin Otters on floats and not, 1-11s, F-28s, 727s and 737s. Given the weather and terrain there was the occasional fright.
One of the things this thread reminded me of was how much we take smooth, gradual manouvers for granted. Most frequent flyers today can go their passenger careers without experiencing anything you might call radical, even heavy turbulence, and they have no idea of the punishment a modern aircraft can take or what sort of manoeuvers these aircraft could accomplish if pushed, i.e far more than anything built 30-50 years ago and which had punishment dosed out to them in great gobs.
The explanations that came through in the thread later about the peculiarities of Albuquerque approaches, made perfect sense. No uproar in the cabin probably because most passengers had experienced the same before. Just alarming to Lomcevak’s friend.
Well, today I had a similar experience and I was alarmed. It was an Aerolineas Argentinas shuttle flight from Aeroparque in Buenos Aires, to Montevideo in a very vintage 737. Only about a 35 minute flight. Drizzling in BA, cloud all the way across at 22,000 feet, breaking through at what I estimated to be between 7 and 10 thousand feet after a gradual descent. And then the steepest descent I have ever experienced in a commercial aircraft and which I could only compare to going into St Barts or some tight places in the Amazon in a Twin Otter. I was sitting in 10A, the emergency exit, The downward angle felt like 60° although it may never have exceeded 20°. In rapid succession, spoilers, then gear and a rapid and continuous extension of flaps. I heard a few moans from around the cabin, nothing more. Didn’t time the descent, estimated it at 2, maybe 3 minutes. A few S-turns, then about 20 seconds wings level, still pointing down until about 100 feet off, rounding out, flare and a light thump down not too far from the threshold.
MVD is not exactly mountainous. Flat as a pancake all around. Suppose I could have asked why, because the captain was at the cockpit door, but there were people behind me and, frankly, I felt embarassed. I suspect that rapid a descent wasn’t necessary. But even if it wasn’t necessary, did it make a blind bit of difference? And from the wisp of smugness I saw in the captain’s slight grin I wouldn’t be at all surprised if, as the yoke was being pushed forward, someone up front said “watch this”.
I followed this thread with interest from the beginning and as it dipped back and forth between slanging match and good insight into how people’s perceptions vary. Anyone who comes through here regularly would know that Lomcevak’s credentials are as Danny described, and that the post was not a wind-up.
I tried to put myself in the position of Loncevak’s friend, a frequent flyer who may never have experienced anything more than moderate turbulence and the gradual descents, and I wondered what sort of rate of descent in a commercial jet it would take to alarm me. I am 58, not as frequent a flyer as I used to be, but I was brought up around airplanes and have flown in a fair assortment of aircraft, the widest range being whatever was available in Peru and the Amazon in the fifties, sixties and seventies. That covers from Stearmans through PBYs, DC-3/4/6s, Twin Otters on floats and not, 1-11s, F-28s, 727s and 737s. Given the weather and terrain there was the occasional fright.
One of the things this thread reminded me of was how much we take smooth, gradual manouvers for granted. Most frequent flyers today can go their passenger careers without experiencing anything you might call radical, even heavy turbulence, and they have no idea of the punishment a modern aircraft can take or what sort of manoeuvers these aircraft could accomplish if pushed, i.e far more than anything built 30-50 years ago and which had punishment dosed out to them in great gobs.
The explanations that came through in the thread later about the peculiarities of Albuquerque approaches, made perfect sense. No uproar in the cabin probably because most passengers had experienced the same before. Just alarming to Lomcevak’s friend.
Well, today I had a similar experience and I was alarmed. It was an Aerolineas Argentinas shuttle flight from Aeroparque in Buenos Aires, to Montevideo in a very vintage 737. Only about a 35 minute flight. Drizzling in BA, cloud all the way across at 22,000 feet, breaking through at what I estimated to be between 7 and 10 thousand feet after a gradual descent. And then the steepest descent I have ever experienced in a commercial aircraft and which I could only compare to going into St Barts or some tight places in the Amazon in a Twin Otter. I was sitting in 10A, the emergency exit, The downward angle felt like 60° although it may never have exceeded 20°. In rapid succession, spoilers, then gear and a rapid and continuous extension of flaps. I heard a few moans from around the cabin, nothing more. Didn’t time the descent, estimated it at 2, maybe 3 minutes. A few S-turns, then about 20 seconds wings level, still pointing down until about 100 feet off, rounding out, flare and a light thump down not too far from the threshold.
MVD is not exactly mountainous. Flat as a pancake all around. Suppose I could have asked why, because the captain was at the cockpit door, but there were people behind me and, frankly, I felt embarassed. I suspect that rapid a descent wasn’t necessary. But even if it wasn’t necessary, did it make a blind bit of difference? And from the wisp of smugness I saw in the captain’s slight grin I wouldn’t be at all surprised if, as the yoke was being pushed forward, someone up front said “watch this”.
Eight Gun Fighter
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Once was on NAN-HNL-YVR on a DC8-63 approaching YVR. We seemed to be still at cruising altitude and I could see the airport below us. We slowed and started a rapid descent, the inboard thrust reversers deployed. We sank like a stone but quite stable and landed.
I had a cold and had been deep snorkling in Fiji to compound the problem. My ears went U/S during descent. I ended up at customs unable to hear a word that the customs officer was saying to me. I told him what the situation was but he kept on talking to me. Couldn't hear a word. Tried to tell him what I thought he wanted to hear. Asked him to write out what he was asking me. Fed up, he waved me through.
I had a cold and had been deep snorkling in Fiji to compound the problem. My ears went U/S during descent. I ended up at customs unable to hear a word that the customs officer was saying to me. I told him what the situation was but he kept on talking to me. Couldn't hear a word. Tried to tell him what I thought he wanted to hear. Asked him to write out what he was asking me. Fed up, he waved me through.
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I would have to say that there is an awful lot of ego flying around in pprune.
I am a ppl, and fly my own twin IFR around SE Asia, I know for example what a thunder storm looks like, my aircraft might come apart a bit easier than yours if I should accidentally find myself inside one, and although sometimes I have the benefit of a qualified pilot in the right seat, sometimes it is just me the aircraft, and a fairly steam driven flight deck, with quite a heavy workload depending on circumstances, especially with the "support" of Indonesian controllers.
The principles of flight are somewhat universal, regardless of equipment (except maybe the A320) or "pilot status", so I don't see that even if Lomcevak was not an aviation superhero, why his points should not be valid.
I have two recent incidences which, I do not suppose led to any reports, but certainly caused alarm for myself and fellow pax.
1. SWA 737 Oakland to LAX, in descent the aircraft appeared to momentarily depart from controlled flight, with what could only be described as a "wing drop" to the left followed by a high rate rolling reversal to the right and then a recovery. I couldn't tell you the bank angle or height loss, as I had my eyes shut by then !!!, but it would seem like a good job was done on the flight deck.
2. United 747-400 out of Washington Dulles to LHR. In the first class lounge the TV weather channel was showing red/yellow radar returns virtually circling Washington, when we taxied the rain was hammering down like anything I have seen on a bad day in the tropics, lightning flashes all around, the aircraft turns in to a holding point with at least six other aircraft holding ahead in the queue. Five minutes later with no change in the weather we taxi past all the other waiting aircraft, and depart. As Airshow was showing on the TV screens, it was quite interesting to watch the aircraft, twist and turn, looking for a hole in the CBs, reversing course at least 4 times and once even manageing a 450 degree turn. The ride can only be described as moderate to severe turbulence, and at some point some joker on the outside appeared to firing golfballs at the fuselage, at least that was what it sounded like from seat 2A, but to be fair, on arrival at LHR, there were no dents in the airframe, although the paintwork looked a bit "worn". The captain came on the PA to reassure all that this was perfectly normal, he didn't sound much like a sky god, more like he was trying to reassure himself !! United did not cover themselves in glory that day.
Whether I fly in a friends PA28 or a 777-200 with a professional crew, I am not so much worried about a pilots credentials, more that he/she understands about limits !!
I am a ppl, and fly my own twin IFR around SE Asia, I know for example what a thunder storm looks like, my aircraft might come apart a bit easier than yours if I should accidentally find myself inside one, and although sometimes I have the benefit of a qualified pilot in the right seat, sometimes it is just me the aircraft, and a fairly steam driven flight deck, with quite a heavy workload depending on circumstances, especially with the "support" of Indonesian controllers.
The principles of flight are somewhat universal, regardless of equipment (except maybe the A320) or "pilot status", so I don't see that even if Lomcevak was not an aviation superhero, why his points should not be valid.
I have two recent incidences which, I do not suppose led to any reports, but certainly caused alarm for myself and fellow pax.
1. SWA 737 Oakland to LAX, in descent the aircraft appeared to momentarily depart from controlled flight, with what could only be described as a "wing drop" to the left followed by a high rate rolling reversal to the right and then a recovery. I couldn't tell you the bank angle or height loss, as I had my eyes shut by then !!!, but it would seem like a good job was done on the flight deck.
2. United 747-400 out of Washington Dulles to LHR. In the first class lounge the TV weather channel was showing red/yellow radar returns virtually circling Washington, when we taxied the rain was hammering down like anything I have seen on a bad day in the tropics, lightning flashes all around, the aircraft turns in to a holding point with at least six other aircraft holding ahead in the queue. Five minutes later with no change in the weather we taxi past all the other waiting aircraft, and depart. As Airshow was showing on the TV screens, it was quite interesting to watch the aircraft, twist and turn, looking for a hole in the CBs, reversing course at least 4 times and once even manageing a 450 degree turn. The ride can only be described as moderate to severe turbulence, and at some point some joker on the outside appeared to firing golfballs at the fuselage, at least that was what it sounded like from seat 2A, but to be fair, on arrival at LHR, there were no dents in the airframe, although the paintwork looked a bit "worn". The captain came on the PA to reassure all that this was perfectly normal, he didn't sound much like a sky god, more like he was trying to reassure himself !! United did not cover themselves in glory that day.
Whether I fly in a friends PA28 or a 777-200 with a professional crew, I am not so much worried about a pilots credentials, more that he/she understands about limits !!