AAI losing pilots
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
From: London, England
I don't think anyone in the management of Atlanta would try to claim that they are a first choice company for pilots looking for a career. That's not an attempt to defend the laughably bad crew planning (how many years have they tried to improve that mess? How many managers have come and gone?) but just to point out that the company doesn't really have ANY interest in improving conditions for it's crews.
As a lot of you have pointed out, a lot of pilots have successfully used Atlanta the way Atlanta use pilots. Go there, get what you want (or need) from them and move on. Right now they are hiring pilots. Sure the salary and conditions are bad, the management is often completely incompetent and the pay is low but it beats working at Burger King. When the opportunity comes, you move on and if you do it right there are no hard feelings. When either party expects more from the other, that's when the problems arise.
Like I said, I'm not seeking to defend Atlanta or the way they do business but I don't think they go out of their way to hide any of the things people complain about. They pay badly, they exhibit double-standards for non-Icelandic pilots and they will cut you lose with minimal notice but while you work for them they will meet the minimal commitments they make.
The real issues that have to be dealt with are their continuing tendency to undercrew contracts and then pressure people to fly illegally and their sad misconception that their current Modus Operandi will be tolerated by the UK CAA.
As a lot of you have pointed out, a lot of pilots have successfully used Atlanta the way Atlanta use pilots. Go there, get what you want (or need) from them and move on. Right now they are hiring pilots. Sure the salary and conditions are bad, the management is often completely incompetent and the pay is low but it beats working at Burger King. When the opportunity comes, you move on and if you do it right there are no hard feelings. When either party expects more from the other, that's when the problems arise.
Like I said, I'm not seeking to defend Atlanta or the way they do business but I don't think they go out of their way to hide any of the things people complain about. They pay badly, they exhibit double-standards for non-Icelandic pilots and they will cut you lose with minimal notice but while you work for them they will meet the minimal commitments they make.
The real issues that have to be dealt with are their continuing tendency to undercrew contracts and then pressure people to fly illegally and their sad misconception that their current Modus Operandi will be tolerated by the UK CAA.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
From: USA
Yes indeed, Crew requirements are undercut on contracts.
Pilots are expected to fly past normal duty times, rest requirements and the lot!
When refusal of exceeding duty times comes into question you are threatened with termination.
Have seen happen often.
Either move the AC or face termination threats.
Its time for Atlanta to wake up, no longer a flying club, follow the rules, stop threatening crew members.
As far as previous post suggesting finding employment elsewhere
Why should we go, Its up to Atlanta to straighten up fly correct or shut down.
Crew planning is the worse and produce the most threats!
Pilots are expected to fly past normal duty times, rest requirements and the lot!
When refusal of exceeding duty times comes into question you are threatened with termination.
Have seen happen often.
Either move the AC or face termination threats.
Its time for Atlanta to wake up, no longer a flying club, follow the rules, stop threatening crew members.
As far as previous post suggesting finding employment elsewhere
Why should we go, Its up to Atlanta to straighten up fly correct or shut down.
Crew planning is the worse and produce the most threats!
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,611
Likes: 0
From: Gold Coast
Pilots are expected to fly past normal duty times, rest requirements and the lot!
When refusal of exceeding duty times comes into question you are threatened with termination.
That is an outright lie.
I suspect that 2Bad2Sad is a troll from some other company trying to provoke some sort of reaction to get information.
Ignore him/her.
When refusal of exceeding duty times comes into question you are threatened with termination.
That is an outright lie.
I suspect that 2Bad2Sad is a troll from some other company trying to provoke some sort of reaction to get information.
Ignore him/her.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
From: Bangkok
2Bad2Sad is Correct about duty times and flight times, ect
Hey 18-Wheeler , 2Bad2Sad is correct about AAI crews exceeding Duty times, Flight times, required rest requirements, ect, on and on. Perhaps it did not happen to you, but it apparently did to him,, and,, it did to me as well. So now there's at least 2 of us that agree here.
I know of one Captain that refused to fly a 767 from England to the States since the data base was expired,, and, did not contain any data for the states, at all. Air Atlanta's position was that "the database is not required". So Air Atlanta's crew planning people just got another Captain who flew it with the expired database. Shortly after this, the Captain that refused to take the flight was no longer working for the company. FACT,, not speculation.
There are other truths to be said here. Open up your mind a little.
Just because it didn't happen to you, doesn't mean that it didn't happen to others.
Or perhaps you were that Captain that took the flight ??
I know of one Captain that refused to fly a 767 from England to the States since the data base was expired,, and, did not contain any data for the states, at all. Air Atlanta's position was that "the database is not required". So Air Atlanta's crew planning people just got another Captain who flew it with the expired database. Shortly after this, the Captain that refused to take the flight was no longer working for the company. FACT,, not speculation.
There are other truths to be said here. Open up your mind a little.
Just because it didn't happen to you, doesn't mean that it didn't happen to others.
Or perhaps you were that Captain that took the flight ??
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: Vietnam
767 lLonghaul,sorry to steal your thunder old boy but the data base was replaced by the engineers prior to this flight departing,I do'nt know where they snaffled it from but it was certainly up to date ,although it was a very limited data base without the usual sids and stars.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,611
Likes: 0
From: Gold Coast
I said it was a lie and I stand by that.
I have been in AAI for nearly three years and have never been asked to exceed duty times, etc.
The inferred statement from the troll was that it happens to everyone, and it clearly does not. Hence, it is a lie and he/she is trying to spread a mistruth. You are not helping.
As Ted Hunter said, you are spreading mistruths, I wonder what you two have to gain from it.
Just because it didn't happen to you, doesn't mean that it didn't happen to others.
True enough AAI make mistakes, but name an airline that doesn't.
I have been in AAI for nearly three years and have never been asked to exceed duty times, etc.
The inferred statement from the troll was that it happens to everyone, and it clearly does not. Hence, it is a lie and he/she is trying to spread a mistruth. You are not helping.
As Ted Hunter said, you are spreading mistruths, I wonder what you two have to gain from it.
Just because it didn't happen to you, doesn't mean that it didn't happen to others.
True enough AAI make mistakes, but name an airline that doesn't.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
From: lgw
Guys,
A quick word from the other side of the fence. We here in crewing and rostering ensure that NO Atlanta pilot flies over the max. And thats a UK FTL, as well as the Icelandic - we fly to the more restrictive.
There have been database issues, and the Captain you are referring to from last summer has left the company, but not just because of that one incident.
All i know is crewing / rostering, and I know we stick to the scheme just as rigidly as any other airline, if not more so. Do pilots moan about flying near to the limits? Yes, but when don't they. Nearly every complaint I've ever had from an AAI pilot has been "Please give me more flying." Oh, and all my days off in a row in August please, that's quite common.....
SO feel free to abuse the owners, but we have taught Iceland the joys of acclimatisation, adequate rest, consecutive nights...Now if we could just stop going to Banjul....
A quick word from the other side of the fence. We here in crewing and rostering ensure that NO Atlanta pilot flies over the max. And thats a UK FTL, as well as the Icelandic - we fly to the more restrictive.
There have been database issues, and the Captain you are referring to from last summer has left the company, but not just because of that one incident.
All i know is crewing / rostering, and I know we stick to the scheme just as rigidly as any other airline, if not more so. Do pilots moan about flying near to the limits? Yes, but when don't they. Nearly every complaint I've ever had from an AAI pilot has been "Please give me more flying." Oh, and all my days off in a row in August please, that's quite common.....
SO feel free to abuse the owners, but we have taught Iceland the joys of acclimatisation, adequate rest, consecutive nights...Now if we could just stop going to Banjul....
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 269
Likes: 1
From: Age
18 wheeler, can you tell us what happened to the pilots who had a tail strike coming back on a MOD flight and why?
I was terminated because I refused to fly over the hours in Nigeria. Can you tell me how people can fly legally when the management rosters only 2 f/o by plane.
I wrote a report to the quality manager, and since that I was never called back.
I was terminated because I refused to fly over the hours in Nigeria. Can you tell me how people can fly legally when the management rosters only 2 f/o by plane.
I wrote a report to the quality manager, and since that I was never called back.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 844
Likes: 0
From: USA
I have been with the company for almost 5 years and have never
been threatened by them in any way shape or form.
I have seen a lack of work due to the down turn of the industry.
This will improve I am sure.
Planning has alway's helped me when I needed it.
I would like to see the old day's where as we all did quite a bit of flying an had the days off to travel home.
been threatened by them in any way shape or form.
I have seen a lack of work due to the down turn of the industry.
This will improve I am sure.
Planning has alway's helped me when I needed it.
I would like to see the old day's where as we all did quite a bit of flying an had the days off to travel home.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,611
Likes: 0
From: Gold Coast
3MTA3 I don't know who was flying the plane on that flight, but it was more complicated that purely pilot error with the tail strike. That's all I can say about that.
I completely refused to go to Nigeria, and I never missed a day's work. They rostered more than two F/O's to go there, but I suspect many like myself refused to go.
I completely refused to go to Nigeria, and I never missed a day's work. They rostered more than two F/O's to go there, but I suspect many like myself refused to go.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 269
Likes: 1
From: Age
We had to operate for over a week with 2 f/o per plane in Nigeria and since I refused to go back there and sent a report to the management, I never been called back. During this Haj, a 767 crew had to fly Jedda- Maidiguri (Nigeria)- Jedda in the sale night... Way over duty.
The pilots from the tail strike incident were found over duty. Of course it's not the only cause for this incident, but it's one of them.
The first time I flew for them, my check pilot's words when I complained about being over duty were "if you start complaining about that, you won't last long in this company".
Sometimes you arrive on a nice contract, but most of the time it's a complete chaos organised by some ex Seven Eleven employees thrown into aviation business without even a basic training, and at the end the crews have to pay for their lack of organisation.
These working conditions might suit certain pilots, but flying a JAR registered airplane implies the respect of the JAR rules. Unlike what AAI tells to their pilots, your licence can be suspended in case af illegal actions.
The pilots from the tail strike incident were found over duty. Of course it's not the only cause for this incident, but it's one of them.
The first time I flew for them, my check pilot's words when I complained about being over duty were "if you start complaining about that, you won't last long in this company".
Sometimes you arrive on a nice contract, but most of the time it's a complete chaos organised by some ex Seven Eleven employees thrown into aviation business without even a basic training, and at the end the crews have to pay for their lack of organisation.
These working conditions might suit certain pilots, but flying a JAR registered airplane implies the respect of the JAR rules. Unlike what AAI tells to their pilots, your licence can be suspended in case af illegal actions.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
From: Bangkok
EXCEL AIRWAYS HAS IT'S OWN STANDARDS,, NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH AIR ATLANTA'S !!!
Hey crundale ,
If you are in Scheduling in LGW then obviously you are doing the Excel crewing. It is so simple to state that you are abiding by the regulations,, but there are some of us that know different since we are the ones that actually experienced the reality of such.
If the CAA would just get off their behinds and investigate,, they would surely find a different story than you portray.
As a Crew Scheduler, I am sure you try to build realistic rosters,, but in reality,, those rosters exceed published limits.
I know for a fact of crews on the 767 flying more than 13 hours block and 20 hour duty days.
Perhaps not something that you had a part in,, but it did happen.
Pull your head out of the sand and have a pint with the rest of us.
If you are in Scheduling in LGW then obviously you are doing the Excel crewing. It is so simple to state that you are abiding by the regulations,, but there are some of us that know different since we are the ones that actually experienced the reality of such.
If the CAA would just get off their behinds and investigate,, they would surely find a different story than you portray.
As a Crew Scheduler, I am sure you try to build realistic rosters,, but in reality,, those rosters exceed published limits.
I know for a fact of crews on the 767 flying more than 13 hours block and 20 hour duty days.
Perhaps not something that you had a part in,, but it did happen.
Pull your head out of the sand and have a pint with the rest of us.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
From: USA
No lies here 18- wheeler,as such all have been subject of mis truths to endure full employment.
Dont think upper management has knowledge of violations of crew duty times/days etc.
Its either complie or goodbye.
We all fancy a check of crew member log books.
Or do you mend yours to show what a great crewmember you are.
Dont think upper management has knowledge of violations of crew duty times/days etc.
Its either complie or goodbye.
We all fancy a check of crew member log books.
Or do you mend yours to show what a great crewmember you are.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
From: SE England
My mate down the pub says that Atlanta are loosing about a dozen Icelandair copilots at the end of April,as Icelandair's work is picking up and they have all been recalled.But he's sure that Atlanta would have known about this in advance and would have made provision for their loss.He says there are many new entrant courses going on,and that it is probably just as well the war is on and that there is a bit of a down turn or things would be a bit tight.He is not working very hard at the moment and seems to get home fairly regularlyHe's heard that all the 757s are back from the desert and that at least one is fully painted in Excel's colours,but he still doesn't know what the Atlanta Europe's contract will be.He also says the crew who went from Jeddah to Maiduguri and back made a wise choice..as Maiduguri is a tip...oh..and Atlanta are still taking on more Ozzie ex Ansett guys...you'd have thought they would have learned by now!
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
From: USA
Why did they not augment the crew as this would have made the crew legal for extended duty.
Same old lies, different day.
Anset crews came from a profesional airline,they know the reqiurements/duty times etc.
NO AIRLINE TO INCLUDE AAI IS ALLOWED TO CONTINUALLY VIOLATE THIS!
Then to threaten termination?
Is this a one time occurance? No this is ongoing, perhaps more will speak out soon!
To the proper authorities!
As we all know the cost of bringing this to attention of managment, no work, not called back/terminated etc.
Whats up my gander is they keep getting away with it.
No one, I repeat, no one, seeks to see Atlanta close the doors.
We all seek change.
A happy crew member is a productive one.
Perhaps management should attend the CRM courses.
Follow the crew duty times, stop threatening crews with termination.
You will not get away with this in the UK!
As in the Tail strikeproblem/crew out of duty day plus other factors.
Not just our license involved here, some have been imprisoned for cauising a accident in other countries. Straighten this up now before someone gets blamed.
Want to be professional? Get it together.
We have all had enough!
Same old lies, different day.
Anset crews came from a profesional airline,they know the reqiurements/duty times etc.
NO AIRLINE TO INCLUDE AAI IS ALLOWED TO CONTINUALLY VIOLATE THIS!
Then to threaten termination?
Is this a one time occurance? No this is ongoing, perhaps more will speak out soon!
To the proper authorities!
As we all know the cost of bringing this to attention of managment, no work, not called back/terminated etc.
Whats up my gander is they keep getting away with it.
No one, I repeat, no one, seeks to see Atlanta close the doors.
We all seek change.
A happy crew member is a productive one.
Perhaps management should attend the CRM courses.
Follow the crew duty times, stop threatening crews with termination.
You will not get away with this in the UK!
As in the Tail strikeproblem/crew out of duty day plus other factors.
Not just our license involved here, some have been imprisoned for cauising a accident in other countries. Straighten this up now before someone gets blamed.
Want to be professional? Get it together.
We have all had enough!
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
From: USA
AAI threatens termination
We and the whole lot have been threatened with termination for not exceeding the crew duty day requirements.
Common Knowledge is to show in the logbook less than 1 hour prior to departure to cover the problem.
All flights from lagos to jed were not in compliance and to extend all flights from LOS to JFK were over duty time I am told.
Hajjah fligthts were doctered in log books. After theNigeria contract.
As you say 18-wheeler would you like log book entry page numbers.
Or is your nose stuck up managments back side that you cannot
smell the stinch.
Maybe you have not been threatened with your employment.
This is true facts.
Can you provide information in a true documentation that this is not true, we can.
You are the one thats not telling the truth here not us.
Air Atlanta is not following crew docotorine.
Crew planning is even worse.
Knowledge of this is apparent.
Ask the Captain (IN) JC about his flight from Kuwait/Jed with over 20 hour before hand.
Can name more.
Yes I am an employee who else could state such facts.What is your job? Do you even fly? You have been here 3 years are you not hearing this are have you forgot how to read the OM.
Maybe you shold not be flying since this is widespread and you do no as you claim have knowledge of the facts.
Common Knowledge is to show in the logbook less than 1 hour prior to departure to cover the problem.
All flights from lagos to jed were not in compliance and to extend all flights from LOS to JFK were over duty time I am told.
Hajjah fligthts were doctered in log books. After theNigeria contract.
As you say 18-wheeler would you like log book entry page numbers.
Or is your nose stuck up managments back side that you cannot
smell the stinch.
Maybe you have not been threatened with your employment.
This is true facts.
Can you provide information in a true documentation that this is not true, we can.
You are the one thats not telling the truth here not us.
Air Atlanta is not following crew docotorine.
Crew planning is even worse.
Knowledge of this is apparent.
Ask the Captain (IN) JC about his flight from Kuwait/Jed with over 20 hour before hand.
Can name more.
Yes I am an employee who else could state such facts.What is your job? Do you even fly? You have been here 3 years are you not hearing this are have you forgot how to read the OM.
Maybe you shold not be flying since this is widespread and you do no as you claim have knowledge of the facts.