AAI losing pilots
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Many are in the same boat.
Either exceed the normal duty day plus extension or face the unemployment line.
No fiction here, all normal operations for Air Atlanta.
How they keep getting away with it, no one knows.
Either exceed the normal duty day plus extension or face the unemployment line.
No fiction here, all normal operations for Air Atlanta.
How they keep getting away with it, no one knows.
Well after nearly three years of being in AAI I say again that I have never ever been asked to bend the rules.
I don't know what's wrong with you blokes that claim that you have, but I think you either have never worked for the company and are just making up stories or are covering up something else that you personally want to hide.
I have flown with some totally incompetant pilots that should not command a paper plane, yet you ask them why they haven't been asked back and somehow it's AAI's fault. (An example, not inferring this here)
I know a lot of people in the company and I know the reasons for virtually everyone not being asked to come back, and cheating on hours & so on has not been a reason for anyone to be let go.
I don't know what's wrong with you blokes that claim that you have, but I think you either have never worked for the company and are just making up stories or are covering up something else that you personally want to hide.
I have flown with some totally incompetant pilots that should not command a paper plane, yet you ask them why they haven't been asked back and somehow it's AAI's fault. (An example, not inferring this here)
I know a lot of people in the company and I know the reasons for virtually everyone not being asked to come back, and cheating on hours & so on has not been a reason for anyone to be let go.
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3MTA3 - I commute from Australia. I work for 5 months then have two months back home. That's working when I want to !
It has never been a problem for AAI. I do occaisionally get recalled early and sometimes leave London a couple of days late but it has worked well for the past five years.
As for working outside the duty / flying hours - I have to agree with 18 Wheeler - I have never been asked to and / or rostered to exceed these limitations.
It has never been a problem for AAI. I do occaisionally get recalled early and sometimes leave London a couple of days late but it has worked well for the past five years.
As for working outside the duty / flying hours - I have to agree with 18 Wheeler - I have never been asked to and / or rostered to exceed these limitations.
How many wingers are there, I did a stint with Excel and Nigerian.
Excel drove us mad with audits and from time to time I had to fill out Commanders discretion reports with both operations but I do not recall exceeding the overall limits by anything excessive.
There is a notice to pilots in the Excel Crew Room stating that your validation may be pulled if you submit too many discretion reports, “have a look in the book!”.
Excel drove us mad with audits and from time to time I had to fill out Commanders discretion reports with both operations but I do not recall exceeding the overall limits by anything excessive.
There is a notice to pilots in the Excel Crew Room stating that your validation may be pulled if you submit too many discretion reports, “have a look in the book!”.
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Mr B767Longhaul,
Dont wish to start a personal argument, but could i just point out that
a) under Icelandic and Uk rules you can actually go up to 14 hours FDP not including discretion
b) as long as the FDP is finished, duty can continue forever, as long as you follow it with an equal rest period.
As I said earlier, if we could sort out the BJL, then this wouldnt happen....
And the CAA do indeed regularly check. Discretion reports are sent to them when things go wrong. They are told, we don't do cover-ups.
Now show me an airline that hasn't used discretion after tech problems, ATC delays, en-route diversions..... I make no claims for perfection, but I think it is unfair to say Excel or Atlanta are any worse than any other airline. And I do know what the Icelandic crew planners have done - positioning from Argentina to London and expect to fly again the next day, return from holiday in Oz to fly the next day in Santa Domingo. All I can say is we are making a lot of progress in educating them, but while daily rosters are done locally by an ops guy then things change very slowly.
I have resigned from another airline in the past by refusing to make an illegal roster - I am sure all Captains would do the same if asked to perform an illegal duty. Surely safety and conscience are worth more than tax free pay?
And 2Bad - surely you know the MOD thing was not a tail strike? If you were that involved with the company you would know what really happened.
Anyway, how about working together, and all trying to improve things? We in ops will try to make life as fair as possible, and when things go wrong, and if asked to someting illegal then you pilots must refuse to fly. After all, someone in ops writing a roster on paper is not illegal, its only when a Captain does it that it become an illegal act.
And as someone said elsewhere - there are other airlines, and no one holds a gun to your head and makes you fly for AAI. The point of this thread was that a lot of guys are leaving. They may not get such well paying jobs again, but they will find something. And well done to them for following their consciences.
Maybe if we could get a universal hours rules set this would stop, as the difference between uk, icelandic, australian, american schemes are huge.
c
ps I do a feel a bit exposed having to defend Iceland on my own, so if you could direct your vitriol to MOS would appreciate it.
pps Mr Longhaul, next time you're in LGW i'll buy the first beer.
Dont wish to start a personal argument, but could i just point out that
a) under Icelandic and Uk rules you can actually go up to 14 hours FDP not including discretion
b) as long as the FDP is finished, duty can continue forever, as long as you follow it with an equal rest period.
As I said earlier, if we could sort out the BJL, then this wouldnt happen....
And the CAA do indeed regularly check. Discretion reports are sent to them when things go wrong. They are told, we don't do cover-ups.
Now show me an airline that hasn't used discretion after tech problems, ATC delays, en-route diversions..... I make no claims for perfection, but I think it is unfair to say Excel or Atlanta are any worse than any other airline. And I do know what the Icelandic crew planners have done - positioning from Argentina to London and expect to fly again the next day, return from holiday in Oz to fly the next day in Santa Domingo. All I can say is we are making a lot of progress in educating them, but while daily rosters are done locally by an ops guy then things change very slowly.
I have resigned from another airline in the past by refusing to make an illegal roster - I am sure all Captains would do the same if asked to perform an illegal duty. Surely safety and conscience are worth more than tax free pay?
And 2Bad - surely you know the MOD thing was not a tail strike? If you were that involved with the company you would know what really happened.
Anyway, how about working together, and all trying to improve things? We in ops will try to make life as fair as possible, and when things go wrong, and if asked to someting illegal then you pilots must refuse to fly. After all, someone in ops writing a roster on paper is not illegal, its only when a Captain does it that it become an illegal act.
And as someone said elsewhere - there are other airlines, and no one holds a gun to your head and makes you fly for AAI. The point of this thread was that a lot of guys are leaving. They may not get such well paying jobs again, but they will find something. And well done to them for following their consciences.
Maybe if we could get a universal hours rules set this would stop, as the difference between uk, icelandic, australian, american schemes are huge.
c
ps I do a feel a bit exposed having to defend Iceland on my own, so if you could direct your vitriol to MOS would appreciate it.
pps Mr Longhaul, next time you're in LGW i'll buy the first beer.
Last edited by crundale; 15th Apr 2003 at 00:49.
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Crundale, universal hours rules DO EXIST...... they are part of the JARs..... and they are not vey different from the FARs
and, by the way, flight duty period is not the same as block time. When you report for a flight at this flight has a long delay, you often bust your 14hours
and, by the way, flight duty period is not the same as block time. When you report for a flight at this flight has a long delay, you often bust your 14hours
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3MTA3,
Check your JAR ops manual - section Q, Flight Time Limitations - Intentionally Left Blank. There has been a draft proposal for Europe wide rules, but nothing is in the JAR manual yet. Sooner the better! At the moment every one uses their own rules - hence mass confusion.
And yes, when you have delays, FDPs get extended. Hence the use of Commander's Discretion. But this is only if the Captain agrees, and I myself have never put pressure on a Captain to agree, and would support one who said no. Maybe that rules me out of a job as an AAI station manager?
Anyway, commercial putting pressure on pilots to meet unrealistic schedules - is this really a problem specific to Air Atlanta?
c
Check your JAR ops manual - section Q, Flight Time Limitations - Intentionally Left Blank. There has been a draft proposal for Europe wide rules, but nothing is in the JAR manual yet. Sooner the better! At the moment every one uses their own rules - hence mass confusion.
And yes, when you have delays, FDPs get extended. Hence the use of Commander's Discretion. But this is only if the Captain agrees, and I myself have never put pressure on a Captain to agree, and would support one who said no. Maybe that rules me out of a job as an AAI station manager?
Anyway, commercial putting pressure on pilots to meet unrealistic schedules - is this really a problem specific to Air Atlanta?
c
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Commander's discretion also has its limits. Also, when you are asked to perform a duty only 8 hours after a FDP of 30 hours, it's nowhere near any limitations in the world. Or when you're asked to do 2 New York- Athens round trip with 10 hours rest between each leg because some idiot forgot that a crew visa is required to enter the US and haven't checked if the pilots were holding one, this can only happen with Air Atlanta.
I have to say that I enjoyed working one one contract: KL
I have to say that I enjoyed working one one contract: KL
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Ah - now the Atlanta training department...that is a joke, you win there!
Discretion does have its limits, and any Captain that flies over them should face the consequences.
Can we all agree then that some like Atlanta, some don't, and that aviation would be a better place if we all had the same rules?
c
Discretion does have its limits, and any Captain that flies over them should face the consequences.
Can we all agree then that some like Atlanta, some don't, and that aviation would be a better place if we all had the same rules?
c
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Perfectly OK with that, Crundale . I enjoyed some of my time with Air Atlanta, because some of the crews and some of the ground people are extremely good, but yes, AAI is definetely not for me. My family is my first priority.
But it doesn't excuse the fact that some base managers are pushing you over the limit with some sentences like : "if you don't do the flight, I don't need you, so you're out of the project"
They should follow the rules. By the way, did you check the hotels in Kaduna and Maidiguri?
But it doesn't excuse the fact that some base managers are pushing you over the limit with some sentences like : "if you don't do the flight, I don't need you, so you're out of the project"
They should follow the rules. By the way, did you check the hotels in Kaduna and Maidiguri?
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In hopes that this is a wake up call for all blokes that may be involved.
Perhaps next time a crewmember states I am not legal, you all will bend the ear.
Does anyone remember letter placed by management 2 years past concerning exceding crew duty days an FDP.
This was exceded the very next day.
Yes its true if you are not a pilot that doctors the books or exceeds the limitations then you are the one threatened with job loss.
These are not one or two hours past the FDP, some of these are well into 5 plus hours.
Many times to get the plane back, then to only have it happen again.
Crunedale,
Perhaps you seek to change the company, problem is that most base managers do not care about the FDP.
Either complie or goodbye!
For years Air Atlanta Icelanic has covered these problems.
Now it has become a crew safety issue.
Work together as you state?
If all follows the Air Atlanta regulations in Chapter 7 concerning these issues then no question at all!
When do we begin?
Perhaps next time a crewmember states I am not legal, you all will bend the ear.
Does anyone remember letter placed by management 2 years past concerning exceding crew duty days an FDP.
This was exceded the very next day.
Yes its true if you are not a pilot that doctors the books or exceeds the limitations then you are the one threatened with job loss.
These are not one or two hours past the FDP, some of these are well into 5 plus hours.
Many times to get the plane back, then to only have it happen again.
Crunedale,
Perhaps you seek to change the company, problem is that most base managers do not care about the FDP.
Either complie or goodbye!
For years Air Atlanta Icelanic has covered these problems.
Now it has become a crew safety issue.
Work together as you state?
If all follows the Air Atlanta regulations in Chapter 7 concerning these issues then no question at all!
When do we begin?
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How can I apply to AAI. I have previous B747 and B757/767 experience. I miss the international flying. Herad they need crews but I am a US dude so I don't know what the restrictions are. I am singe with no kids, or even an ex wife, and would relocate anywhere. Thanks.
PLK
PLK
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Saturn, do not worry about being a US dude, Atlanta is full of them, and Aussies and Canadians too. All you need is a JAA validation, they are so well in with the Icelandic CAA they could get a validation for a rear gunner on a Toxteth milk float.
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Yeah come on over to the UK fellas. The UK is a soft touch and has become the dumping ground for the flotsam of the world so why not for Pilots as well.??
Try getting a job in US Canada, Oz or New Zealand unless you are a citizen of that country and see what a different picture it is.
Try getting a job in US Canada, Oz or New Zealand unless you are a citizen of that country and see what a different picture it is.
