Ryanair. The best thing since sliced bread?
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Oneworld22,
I also am Irish. I am proud of the success Ryanair has had. This does not mean that I can endorse the ****e we've all had to put with lately. I do not detect any anti-Irishness in the comments from fellow ppruners or other FR employees. However, FR's failures are many and its getting worse by the day. To point out such failures (see other thread!) is not anti-Irish. It's merely anti-bad management, anti bullying, anti intimidation, anti-fatiguing work patterns, anti-failure to honour contracts/promises, anti-sacking of union leaders on trumped up charges etc. I think the Irish nation has grown up enough to put such colonial era paranoia behind us. Lets be proud of our successes and accept honest criticism of our undesirable elements.
BTW, your info on the Martin Duffy sacking is SO wrong. I have spoken DIRECTLY to 6 witnesses who confirm MD's position that there was a 4/5 situation. I believe that even the company "witnesses" eg Mr. CD don't even dispute this. Would love to know your "contact", can you indicate what level we're talking about. It does not surprise me that FR staffers would toe the company line. Being yelled at by O'Leary kinda does that to you. Ask your contact how he feels about the Monday meetings - senior managers have been known to be physically sick in anticipation of the ritual bollockings.
I also am Irish. I am proud of the success Ryanair has had. This does not mean that I can endorse the ****e we've all had to put with lately. I do not detect any anti-Irishness in the comments from fellow ppruners or other FR employees. However, FR's failures are many and its getting worse by the day. To point out such failures (see other thread!) is not anti-Irish. It's merely anti-bad management, anti bullying, anti intimidation, anti-fatiguing work patterns, anti-failure to honour contracts/promises, anti-sacking of union leaders on trumped up charges etc. I think the Irish nation has grown up enough to put such colonial era paranoia behind us. Lets be proud of our successes and accept honest criticism of our undesirable elements.
BTW, your info on the Martin Duffy sacking is SO wrong. I have spoken DIRECTLY to 6 witnesses who confirm MD's position that there was a 4/5 situation. I believe that even the company "witnesses" eg Mr. CD don't even dispute this. Would love to know your "contact", can you indicate what level we're talking about. It does not surprise me that FR staffers would toe the company line. Being yelled at by O'Leary kinda does that to you. Ask your contact how he feels about the Monday meetings - senior managers have been known to be physically sick in anticipation of the ritual bollockings.
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Stand by your man, I accept your points as well. If you've spoken to 6 people who were actually there at the time then I'll have to accept that. That's all I was asking for, people who were in fact there.
With that as the case, I would imagine that MD is in pole position to put in a hefty claim against the company on the lines of unfair dismissal.
If what you're saying is true about the current climate in FR then I really am dismayed. That's not the company that my friend who retired worked for. On his last ever flight for FR which terminated in DUB, MOL met him at the bottom of the steps with a Gin and tonic to salute him. Then a massive session was had by all at the Coachman's. You might know who I'm talking about, ex Capt NO'F. He used to tell me of the great FR golf outings that MOL would send them on, all expenses paid. It was work hard and get paid well.
I'm sorry for everyone at FR if all that's changed. Why has it changed?
By the way my contact is extremely high up!
With that as the case, I would imagine that MD is in pole position to put in a hefty claim against the company on the lines of unfair dismissal.
If what you're saying is true about the current climate in FR then I really am dismayed. That's not the company that my friend who retired worked for. On his last ever flight for FR which terminated in DUB, MOL met him at the bottom of the steps with a Gin and tonic to salute him. Then a massive session was had by all at the Coachman's. You might know who I'm talking about, ex Capt NO'F. He used to tell me of the great FR golf outings that MOL would send them on, all expenses paid. It was work hard and get paid well.
I'm sorry for everyone at FR if all that's changed. Why has it changed?
By the way my contact is extremely high up!
Sensible PPRuNer?
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Oneworld22, I think the difference was that N O'F was connected. And you know what I mean by that even better than I do (if you know him as well as you say). A nice guy. One who never made waves...never needed to either.
Great golfer by all accounts.
Does MOL play often?
I'll say no more.
Schoolkid, the title of the BizPlus article was "Ryanair. The best share since sliced bread ?"
Note the QUESTION MARK. Veery important that question mark. They seemed to think not, by the way.
MOL's management style (the bawl 'em out school of business) was learned right at Tony seniors knee. A past master in trade.
Speaking of trade. Did you know that MOL's previous business experience was running a newsagents? Strange...but true!
Great golfer by all accounts.
Does MOL play often?
I'll say no more.
Schoolkid, the title of the BizPlus article was "Ryanair. The best share since sliced bread ?"
Note the QUESTION MARK. Veery important that question mark. They seemed to think not, by the way.
MOL's management style (the bawl 'em out school of business) was learned right at Tony seniors knee. A past master in trade.
Speaking of trade. Did you know that MOL's previous business experience was running a newsagents? Strange...but true!
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OneWorld22 - There's your responses. Unfortunately you cannot ask for the 'real' story to any topic on this forum. Who would you believe. It doesn't matter whether someone swears blind that they were actually there or they spoke to witnesses, you will never know. After all this is 'Rumours and News', a title which which requires a bit logical reading between the lines, and take from it what you want. Between this thread and others regarding this matter and others, you have to come to one conclusion: the Ryanair pilot body is unhappy (it is staring you in the face). That is one thing that the management do not understand. They can quite happily throw agreements at us that promise increased everything, but they unfortunately do not have the abitlity to increase moral. I personally do not know how it can be done. It is certainly not going to happen over night.
I joined over two years ago and I got everything that I was promised from Ryanair. It is very, very sad what has happened since then. Ryanair have never lied to me. What they have promised me today, has happened. Unfortunately, they will never promise you a tomorrow. Yes I have job security, but no job stability. 'Here today, gone tomorrow' as the saying goes. Gone where? To Hahn, on lower pay than all my colleagues, with only a suitcase after a week. Maybe, I'm only guessing!!
I joined over two years ago and I got everything that I was promised from Ryanair. It is very, very sad what has happened since then. Ryanair have never lied to me. What they have promised me today, has happened. Unfortunately, they will never promise you a tomorrow. Yes I have job security, but no job stability. 'Here today, gone tomorrow' as the saying goes. Gone where? To Hahn, on lower pay than all my colleagues, with only a suitcase after a week. Maybe, I'm only guessing!!
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Sorry to break the main thrust of this thread, but oneworld has it wrong regarding the 'brits' not liking the 'Irish'. Just not true.
Absolute piffle.
As for the yanks though........
Absolute piffle.
As for the yanks though........
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Oneworld22
Yeah, agree with Sensible re N O F. 1st class guy. That retirement scenario wouldn't happen now, though. MOL would be more likely to get the G&T poured over him by a retiring Capt. This happy family stuff is a myth. The CRL based guys were invited to a summer soiree recently and didn't go. (reckoning Ryanairs action re their pay and base etc. spoke louder than a cheap plss-up) Wow. Nerve end touched! They each got a letter reminding them that their futures (base transfers, command etc.) were entirely at the company's discrettion and their ABSENCE WAS NOTED. The intimidation just gets worse. Why? What does your contact say? If s/he is extremely high up, then such a perspective would be interesting. My guess is that raw naked fear permeates the FR corridors of power.
Yeah, agree with Sensible re N O F. 1st class guy. That retirement scenario wouldn't happen now, though. MOL would be more likely to get the G&T poured over him by a retiring Capt. This happy family stuff is a myth. The CRL based guys were invited to a summer soiree recently and didn't go. (reckoning Ryanairs action re their pay and base etc. spoke louder than a cheap plss-up) Wow. Nerve end touched! They each got a letter reminding them that their futures (base transfers, command etc.) were entirely at the company's discrettion and their ABSENCE WAS NOTED. The intimidation just gets worse. Why? What does your contact say? If s/he is extremely high up, then such a perspective would be interesting. My guess is that raw naked fear permeates the FR corridors of power.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Having followed this, and the other Ryansair threads for the past couple of weeks, I'd like to pass an "observer's" comment om my overall opinion of this company.
To me, it appears that MO'L (and consequently ryanair as a company) don't care two hoots about pilot experience or turnover. They are a low-cost airline (meaning they pay low wages to their staff) which doesn't intend committing itself to long term obligations eg. incremental salary increases, holiday benefits, long service leave, pension schemes, etc.
In fact, as they see it, a reasonable continued turnover of staff is preferable to the "stayers". The message is "There is NO FUTURE with Ryanair - it is a 'stepping-stone airline." Management is trying to give you this message by way of their actions, rightly or wrongly in your eyes.
The poor salaries, and less than average working conditions are there to remind you that Ryanair wants you only for as long as you NEED to tolerate them - when you have enough experience, then move on, and allow your miserably remunerated position to be filled by another up-and-coming, whose skills have not been honed sharply enough to allow him/her the opportunity to gain employment with a higher class of employer.
Use Ryanair for what it is - an aviation whore - that will allow you to practise your basic skills in it, before casting it aside for something with a more respected reputation.
And there's no need to say "Thank you" as you part company, because you've both got what you wanted from the relationship, during your (brief) interlude!
To me, it appears that MO'L (and consequently ryanair as a company) don't care two hoots about pilot experience or turnover. They are a low-cost airline (meaning they pay low wages to their staff) which doesn't intend committing itself to long term obligations eg. incremental salary increases, holiday benefits, long service leave, pension schemes, etc.
In fact, as they see it, a reasonable continued turnover of staff is preferable to the "stayers". The message is "There is NO FUTURE with Ryanair - it is a 'stepping-stone airline." Management is trying to give you this message by way of their actions, rightly or wrongly in your eyes.
The poor salaries, and less than average working conditions are there to remind you that Ryanair wants you only for as long as you NEED to tolerate them - when you have enough experience, then move on, and allow your miserably remunerated position to be filled by another up-and-coming, whose skills have not been honed sharply enough to allow him/her the opportunity to gain employment with a higher class of employer.
Use Ryanair for what it is - an aviation whore - that will allow you to practise your basic skills in it, before casting it aside for something with a more respected reputation.
And there's no need to say "Thank you" as you part company, because you've both got what you wanted from the relationship, during your (brief) interlude!
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From an unbiased outsider's viewpoint, I'd like to make a couple of comments.
1) Ruling by fear the "bawl 'em out school of business" as CaptSensible says is never a good way to run a company. Why? Because if you're treated like a dog, sooner or later you'll bite back. Also, you become innured to the abuse and therefore when it really counts it's disregarded. Far better is the iron fist in a velvet glove approach - as employed by Barbara Cassani.
2) Irish aviation is not so much about what you know but who you know. Most of the bods at Hawkins House are ex Air Corps, and if you're ex Air Corps as well you're A for Away ... and if you want to set up an operation over there you get pointed in the direction of a bod who would "make a great Flight Ops Director/Chief Pilot" ... and surprise surprise, he's ex Air Corps!
3) I'd be wondering where growth is going to come from to keep the shareholders happy. The UK market is pretty much saturated these days, and FR needs to be expanding further into Europe. The only problem is that - despite the so-called open skies that's supposed to exist in Europe today - domestic markets are almost impossible to break into. Germany would be a logical next step, but they'll be blocked by Lufthansa and the competition from high speed rail links is problematic as well.
Incidentally, Capt Sensible you're right about MO'L having a newsagents ... when he gave up his training as a chartered accountant he bought into one, and leveraged that up into another, and another, and another...!
1) Ruling by fear the "bawl 'em out school of business" as CaptSensible says is never a good way to run a company. Why? Because if you're treated like a dog, sooner or later you'll bite back. Also, you become innured to the abuse and therefore when it really counts it's disregarded. Far better is the iron fist in a velvet glove approach - as employed by Barbara Cassani.
2) Irish aviation is not so much about what you know but who you know. Most of the bods at Hawkins House are ex Air Corps, and if you're ex Air Corps as well you're A for Away ... and if you want to set up an operation over there you get pointed in the direction of a bod who would "make a great Flight Ops Director/Chief Pilot" ... and surprise surprise, he's ex Air Corps!
3) I'd be wondering where growth is going to come from to keep the shareholders happy. The UK market is pretty much saturated these days, and FR needs to be expanding further into Europe. The only problem is that - despite the so-called open skies that's supposed to exist in Europe today - domestic markets are almost impossible to break into. Germany would be a logical next step, but they'll be blocked by Lufthansa and the competition from high speed rail links is problematic as well.
Incidentally, Capt Sensible you're right about MO'L having a newsagents ... when he gave up his training as a chartered accountant he bought into one, and leveraged that up into another, and another, and another...!
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Ryanairs interim results due tomorrow. Watch out for much trumpeting of increased profits.......disguising a drastic fall in margins. Look closely at depreciation figures too. Go figure why MO'L and the Bros Ryan are selling as fast as they can offload. 
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Thanks for the memo who ever sent it.
MEMO: to all UK based pilots
Date: 10 Jan 01
From: Dep Chief Pilot
Ref: Fuel
Ladies and Gentlemen.
The folowing table is extracted from the Voyage Reports 03 Jan to 09 Jan 2001 indicating fuel on arrival in STN from DUB on 200 Fleet.
03 Jan 4200kgs
04 Jan 4800kgs, 4500kgs, 4300kgs
05 Jan 5100kgs
06 Jan 4200kgs, 4300kgs
07 Jan 4400kgs, 4600kgs
08 Jan 4400kgs, 4400kgs, 4400kgs
09 Jan 4300kgs
This level of inefficiency is unacceptable.
Signed Capt
########
Isn't Jan winter in the UK?
Therefore possibility of that world renown crap BRITISH weather.
Can anyone tell me if it was "A bad week" re WX?
Was the wx near Cat 1 min & they carried extra fuel in case it deterioated? (and had to divert back to DUB or PIK)
Were they new Capts on upgrade & had increased mins?
Did they carry extra fuel due Wx forecast indicating possible holding, but wx improve and they made an approach & were lucky to land while others were unlucky & had to G/A?
Which is cheaper and more commercially efficient- Carry on extra 30min fuel or divert 100miles? (The diversion would cost 2hrs in delays to the rest of the days schedule)
How many pilots have been sacked for landing with TOO much fuel?
What is the most useless thing on board an acft after the gear is up? Air in the fuel tanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Still I'd rather get bollocked than have to open the crossfeed and fail a Line check for not having sufficient fuel.
Remember the Irish Army Air Corps Helo that crashed near Waterford? - not enough fuel?
Isnt Dep CP also from the 'Brown shoe Brigade'?
Profits v Safety ?
[img]http://[/img]
MEMO: to all UK based pilots
Date: 10 Jan 01
From: Dep Chief Pilot
Ref: Fuel
Ladies and Gentlemen.
The folowing table is extracted from the Voyage Reports 03 Jan to 09 Jan 2001 indicating fuel on arrival in STN from DUB on 200 Fleet.
03 Jan 4200kgs
04 Jan 4800kgs, 4500kgs, 4300kgs
05 Jan 5100kgs
06 Jan 4200kgs, 4300kgs
07 Jan 4400kgs, 4600kgs
08 Jan 4400kgs, 4400kgs, 4400kgs
09 Jan 4300kgs
This level of inefficiency is unacceptable.
Signed Capt
########
Isn't Jan winter in the UK?
Therefore possibility of that world renown crap BRITISH weather.
Can anyone tell me if it was "A bad week" re WX?
Was the wx near Cat 1 min & they carried extra fuel in case it deterioated? (and had to divert back to DUB or PIK)
Were they new Capts on upgrade & had increased mins?
Did they carry extra fuel due Wx forecast indicating possible holding, but wx improve and they made an approach & were lucky to land while others were unlucky & had to G/A?
Which is cheaper and more commercially efficient- Carry on extra 30min fuel or divert 100miles? (The diversion would cost 2hrs in delays to the rest of the days schedule)
How many pilots have been sacked for landing with TOO much fuel?
What is the most useless thing on board an acft after the gear is up? Air in the fuel tanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Still I'd rather get bollocked than have to open the crossfeed and fail a Line check for not having sufficient fuel.
Remember the Irish Army Air Corps Helo that crashed near Waterford? - not enough fuel?
Isnt Dep CP also from the 'Brown shoe Brigade'?
Profits v Safety ?
[img]http://[/img]
PPRuNe Secret Agent!
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MO'L has just been on the 10 o'clock news stating possibly overtaking BA in 5-6 years time and been the largest airline in Europe in 10 years..! Very ambitious, but i'm sure if there is one CEO capable it's MO'L.
Analyst's also reckon there could be some casualties in the low-cost sector.
Analyst's also reckon there could be some casualties in the low-cost sector.
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Ryanair profits soar 28% as it warns Boeing on 737 pricing
Dateline: Wednesday August 08, 2001
Repeating the success enjoyed by its North American low-fare counterparts Southwest Airlines and WestJet, Ryanair shrugged off the effects of the business travel downturn and posted record profits for its fiscal first quarter ended June 30.
The budget airline had after-tax earnings of eur23.2 million ($20.5 million), up 28% over
eur18.1 million earned in the year-ago period. "Ryanair's strong growth…reflects the
successful rollout of our low-fares formula on 13 new routes across Europe," said CEO
Michael O'Leary. "We continue to grow traffic in both new and existing markets because Ryanair remains the only airline in Europe which guarantees its fares will be the lowest."
Operating revenues rose 31% to eur150.8 million on a 42% increase in passengers to
2.4 million offset by lower yields, while operating expense climbed 32% to eur122.1
million. Operating profit jumped 29% to eur28.8 million from eur22.3 million.
Ryanair also announced it has cancelled options on five 737-800s scheduled for
delivery between and March and May 2003 and warned that it could cancel 12 other
737s due in 2004-05 "unless pricing begins to reflect the current market realities." The
carrier added that it is in "active discussions" to purchase up to 50 used 737-300s and dash 400s, "which will adequately meet our fleet expansion from 2003 onwards." [/quote]
Dateline: Wednesday August 08, 2001
Repeating the success enjoyed by its North American low-fare counterparts Southwest Airlines and WestJet, Ryanair shrugged off the effects of the business travel downturn and posted record profits for its fiscal first quarter ended June 30.
The budget airline had after-tax earnings of eur23.2 million ($20.5 million), up 28% over
eur18.1 million earned in the year-ago period. "Ryanair's strong growth…reflects the
successful rollout of our low-fares formula on 13 new routes across Europe," said CEO
Michael O'Leary. "We continue to grow traffic in both new and existing markets because Ryanair remains the only airline in Europe which guarantees its fares will be the lowest."
Operating revenues rose 31% to eur150.8 million on a 42% increase in passengers to
2.4 million offset by lower yields, while operating expense climbed 32% to eur122.1
million. Operating profit jumped 29% to eur28.8 million from eur22.3 million.
Ryanair also announced it has cancelled options on five 737-800s scheduled for
delivery between and March and May 2003 and warned that it could cancel 12 other
737s due in 2004-05 "unless pricing begins to reflect the current market realities." The
carrier added that it is in "active discussions" to purchase up to 50 used 737-300s and dash 400s, "which will adequately meet our fleet expansion from 2003 onwards." [/quote]
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Didn't he (MOL) say in Flight that these 737-800 orders and options will only meet immediate requirements, and that the 50 extra aircraft he was seeking were needed over and above what had already been arranged with Boeing?
So now, a day later, he doesn't need them anymore? Or perhaps he doesn't need to pay the price anymore!
So now, a day later, he doesn't need them anymore? Or perhaps he doesn't need to pay the price anymore!
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Well Ryanair now there's a thing !!
Due to a little bit of forward planning a rare occurrence on my part
I opened up the Ryanair web page yesterday really very early in the morning and there was these promises of YES very cheap fares if you book between 7-9 August so there I was happy as a lollipop
right try and book them FORGET IT
I tried every route from Dublin within there criteria and the cheapest i came up with was 24-38 to Luton there all supposed to be 1,5,7,10 depending on where you go
Is this Ryanair ??
I've not travelled with them before nor shall I
They should be had for this
seeing as its now 8 Aug try their site yourself and see what you come up with
This is their Commercial side admittedly but whats the rest of it like
???
SL
Due to a little bit of forward planning a rare occurrence on my part
I opened up the Ryanair web page yesterday really very early in the morning and there was these promises of YES very cheap fares if you book between 7-9 August so there I was happy as a lollipop
right try and book them FORGET IT
I tried every route from Dublin within there criteria and the cheapest i came up with was 24-38 to Luton there all supposed to be 1,5,7,10 depending on where you go
Is this Ryanair ??
I've not travelled with them before nor shall I
They should be had for this
seeing as its now 8 Aug try their site yourself and see what you come up with
This is their Commercial side admittedly but whats the rest of it like
???
SL
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Bean-counter,
Looks like the real bean counters back my view. Share price down 20c on Tuesday in response to results, down another 18 on Wednesday, down a whopping 45c on Thursday and down another 7c today. The markets have obviously copped on to the real story, even though the journos, probably force fed a diet of Ryanair PR, are happy to regurgitate the self congratulatory twaddle from O’Leary.
Looks like the real bean counters back my view. Share price down 20c on Tuesday in response to results, down another 18 on Wednesday, down a whopping 45c on Thursday and down another 7c today. The markets have obviously copped on to the real story, even though the journos, probably force fed a diet of Ryanair PR, are happy to regurgitate the self congratulatory twaddle from O’Leary.