Balpa & Klm-uk
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Otterman; lets just put the record straight shall we?
KLM and the VNV negotiated a deal where the KLC pilots get mainline t and c, part of that was the integration of the KLMuk pilots who , have no right to KLM but can apply, IF accepted they go to the bottom of the KLM master list, KLC uk is set up, the KLMuk pilots are FORCED to split from Buzz and placed in this "shell company", by your own admision klc uk will shrink and die as there will be no future in it, our pension is under threat, we are paid far less that you, there is no guarantee that should an aircraft be replaced on a route (MAN F100 to B737 for example) that the pilots based at MAN will get a change of aircraft type at base, therefore could and I suspect will be force base moved to AMS, KLC expanded post sept 11, we were forced to make pilots and ground staff redundant, there is NO guarantee of a transfer to BUZZ, even so many pilots are regionally based and have no desire to move to STN, BUZZ pilots have NO right to move to KLC uk, we are changing to KLM SOPs as it will be required that we mix crews with KLC, do you find it acceptable that a KLCuk Captain could be flying with a KLC First Officer who will ALWAYS have better T and Cs and ALWAYS be senior to the captain as far as KLM is concerned?
In all Otterman as I said before we are being royally SHAFTED, the deal that the VNV and KLM has put foward is TOTALLY unacceptable if not bordering on the down right racist!!! We deserve nothing less than the integration terms offered to NLM now KLC.
As you mentioned before BA is making an equal mess of its integration of pilots, i so hope that BA takes over KLM and BALPA screw KLM pilots into the ground, not only to the bottom of the list, but with crap T and Cs. You guys have laid down the ground rules, i hope you are prepared for the concequences.
There is a solution to this, you STOP being so damn right selfish and give the KLMuk guys the rights they deserve.
KLM and the VNV negotiated a deal where the KLC pilots get mainline t and c, part of that was the integration of the KLMuk pilots who , have no right to KLM but can apply, IF accepted they go to the bottom of the KLM master list, KLC uk is set up, the KLMuk pilots are FORCED to split from Buzz and placed in this "shell company", by your own admision klc uk will shrink and die as there will be no future in it, our pension is under threat, we are paid far less that you, there is no guarantee that should an aircraft be replaced on a route (MAN F100 to B737 for example) that the pilots based at MAN will get a change of aircraft type at base, therefore could and I suspect will be force base moved to AMS, KLC expanded post sept 11, we were forced to make pilots and ground staff redundant, there is NO guarantee of a transfer to BUZZ, even so many pilots are regionally based and have no desire to move to STN, BUZZ pilots have NO right to move to KLC uk, we are changing to KLM SOPs as it will be required that we mix crews with KLC, do you find it acceptable that a KLCuk Captain could be flying with a KLC First Officer who will ALWAYS have better T and Cs and ALWAYS be senior to the captain as far as KLM is concerned?
In all Otterman as I said before we are being royally SHAFTED, the deal that the VNV and KLM has put foward is TOTALLY unacceptable if not bordering on the down right racist!!! We deserve nothing less than the integration terms offered to NLM now KLC.
As you mentioned before BA is making an equal mess of its integration of pilots, i so hope that BA takes over KLM and BALPA screw KLM pilots into the ground, not only to the bottom of the list, but with crap T and Cs. You guys have laid down the ground rules, i hope you are prepared for the concequences.
There is a solution to this, you STOP being so damn right selfish and give the KLMuk guys the rights they deserve.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Otterman, you talk of the tremendous opportunities for pilots staying/transferring to buzz. As of the present moment no-one in the KLMuk workforce, and that includes the BALPA committee, has been given an inkling as to what the business plan is. What we are being given is "trust me..., I'm a Dutchman !". With all due respect, not a lot to base one's career on.
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Otterman
First of all thankyou for taking the time to contribute to this discussion - it would be easy to walk away.
In respect of seniority I must disagree with you completely.
I was a junior(ish) Captain on the F100 when I resigned three years ago. I was also in the top third of the Air UK seniority list.
When I was making my decision to resign and join another company I thought long and hard about it. I listened to what the KLM management were telling us and did not see a very bright future for myself (despite my seniority). I moved in order to maintain my quality of life and give my marriage a chance of surviving.
If I had stayed I would be in the same position now and with minimal/non existant chance of transferring to Buzz (my preferred option).
Since I have moved companies 99% of what I guessed would happen has actually happened and I certainly do not regret moving.
In the time I was with Air UK it was never going to win 'Airline of the Year' awards but it certainly wasn't the worst by a long, long way. It was also generally profitable and had an expanding route network (albeit not involving Amsterdam).
KLM uk is but a shell of the former AirUK.
The VNV are only protecting their own jobs and I wish BALPA had even a fraction of their power but a bit of compassion and a degree of respect is not too much to ask for your future co-workers.
All the best.
Tot ziens.
First of all thankyou for taking the time to contribute to this discussion - it would be easy to walk away.
In respect of seniority I must disagree with you completely.
I was a junior(ish) Captain on the F100 when I resigned three years ago. I was also in the top third of the Air UK seniority list.
When I was making my decision to resign and join another company I thought long and hard about it. I listened to what the KLM management were telling us and did not see a very bright future for myself (despite my seniority). I moved in order to maintain my quality of life and give my marriage a chance of surviving.
If I had stayed I would be in the same position now and with minimal/non existant chance of transferring to Buzz (my preferred option).
Since I have moved companies 99% of what I guessed would happen has actually happened and I certainly do not regret moving.
In the time I was with Air UK it was never going to win 'Airline of the Year' awards but it certainly wasn't the worst by a long, long way. It was also generally profitable and had an expanding route network (albeit not involving Amsterdam).
KLM uk is but a shell of the former AirUK.
The VNV are only protecting their own jobs and I wish BALPA had even a fraction of their power but a bit of compassion and a degree of respect is not too much to ask for your future co-workers.
All the best.
Tot ziens.
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I hope that my colleagues at KLM UK will shortly get a lot more clarity on what the future holds. Don’t overestimate the amount of information we are getting at KLM. Through our union Internet site I found out that KLM will be holding this meeting with the KLM and Transavia unions about BUZZ (October second). At Transavia there is also a lot of unrest because of the situation around BUZZ.
I try to appreciate the amount of emotion involved for all concerned. I certainly don’t agree with all that is said, but everyone is entitled to airing his opinion and emotion. It is one of the great things about pprune; it can be done with anonymity.
I am sorry, but I don’t feel a KLM UK pilot is entitled to taking seniority with him to KLM. Breaking open our list is a no-go. I feel the same for my colleagues at Martinair or Transavia. I can make the mental leap that a KLM UK pilot would find it more than fair that he gets the same conditions as a KLC pilot as far as seniority goes. But the difference is like night and day, and extensively discussed in previous versions of this topic. Does this make me a borderline racist? Would take a pretty liberal definition of the word, and from a KLM UK pilot’s perspective, maybe. It certainly isn’t with malice.
As far as what KLM UK pilots deserve. I guess I miss the point. You want the same thing as the KLC pilots got? I infer that this would mean that KLM UK (and KLC UK) would stop, period. There would be one big list, with some ex-KLM UK pilots getting a quite senior position. My fifteen years place me around 600 out of 2000 pilots as a frame of reference. All pilots will be based out of Holland like they are right now. This is exactly what you don’t want. You don’t want anything to do with us borderline racist arrogant low-life’s. Let alone living in this horrible place.
What the VNV has negotiated, in my opinion, tried to take into account a little of everything.
There are huge holes in my knowledge, but I don’t quite understand why a KLM UK pilot cannot transfer to BUZZ (is this because of limited training capacity). From what was communicated to us, KLM anticipates the majority of the KLM UK pilots going to BUZZ. Once again the senior guys probably will join KLC UK, and the junior ones make the decision to either try KLM or go with BUZZ. I am more than interested in knowing how the details work out, please keep posting.
This integration is now beyond the stage that a discussion here will have any impact. I know that KLM UK pilots knew something was coming down the pike for at least 6 months. What if anything was done to prepare for it? BALPA was involved, I know the VNV initiated contact, and they were able to give input on behalf of our colleagues at KLM UK during the entire negotiation.
It is up to BALPA now to make sure that the upheaval in the lives of a KLM UK pilot will be kept to the absolute minimum. Make sure the T & C’s stay the same. And details like base, or aircraft changes are covered.
This situation is pretty unique. I don’t know of other situations that quite compare. We are talking about a cross-border merger here. The VNV has negotiated a deal with the input of BALPA that gives the pilots from one country more options, including joining mainline, than BALPA is shoving down British throats at BA CityExpress.
I hold my colleagues at KLM UK in high esteem. It is true that over the last few years KLM UK has become a shadow of its former self. I hope that BUZZ’s plans turn out to be as extensive as the rumour mill makes it out to be. It will widen options and at least offer a way forward.
Maybe you will get your sweet revenge in a few years when BALPA stick us bottom of the list (if there is ever a merger between BA and KLM). I certainly don’t derive any pleasure from the situation surrounding KLM UK and KLM/KLC.
I am not sure what I have left to contribute, I wish you all well.
Regards, O.
I try to appreciate the amount of emotion involved for all concerned. I certainly don’t agree with all that is said, but everyone is entitled to airing his opinion and emotion. It is one of the great things about pprune; it can be done with anonymity.
I am sorry, but I don’t feel a KLM UK pilot is entitled to taking seniority with him to KLM. Breaking open our list is a no-go. I feel the same for my colleagues at Martinair or Transavia. I can make the mental leap that a KLM UK pilot would find it more than fair that he gets the same conditions as a KLC pilot as far as seniority goes. But the difference is like night and day, and extensively discussed in previous versions of this topic. Does this make me a borderline racist? Would take a pretty liberal definition of the word, and from a KLM UK pilot’s perspective, maybe. It certainly isn’t with malice.
As far as what KLM UK pilots deserve. I guess I miss the point. You want the same thing as the KLC pilots got? I infer that this would mean that KLM UK (and KLC UK) would stop, period. There would be one big list, with some ex-KLM UK pilots getting a quite senior position. My fifteen years place me around 600 out of 2000 pilots as a frame of reference. All pilots will be based out of Holland like they are right now. This is exactly what you don’t want. You don’t want anything to do with us borderline racist arrogant low-life’s. Let alone living in this horrible place.
What the VNV has negotiated, in my opinion, tried to take into account a little of everything.
There are huge holes in my knowledge, but I don’t quite understand why a KLM UK pilot cannot transfer to BUZZ (is this because of limited training capacity). From what was communicated to us, KLM anticipates the majority of the KLM UK pilots going to BUZZ. Once again the senior guys probably will join KLC UK, and the junior ones make the decision to either try KLM or go with BUZZ. I am more than interested in knowing how the details work out, please keep posting.
This integration is now beyond the stage that a discussion here will have any impact. I know that KLM UK pilots knew something was coming down the pike for at least 6 months. What if anything was done to prepare for it? BALPA was involved, I know the VNV initiated contact, and they were able to give input on behalf of our colleagues at KLM UK during the entire negotiation.
It is up to BALPA now to make sure that the upheaval in the lives of a KLM UK pilot will be kept to the absolute minimum. Make sure the T & C’s stay the same. And details like base, or aircraft changes are covered.
This situation is pretty unique. I don’t know of other situations that quite compare. We are talking about a cross-border merger here. The VNV has negotiated a deal with the input of BALPA that gives the pilots from one country more options, including joining mainline, than BALPA is shoving down British throats at BA CityExpress.
I hold my colleagues at KLM UK in high esteem. It is true that over the last few years KLM UK has become a shadow of its former self. I hope that BUZZ’s plans turn out to be as extensive as the rumour mill makes it out to be. It will widen options and at least offer a way forward.
Maybe you will get your sweet revenge in a few years when BALPA stick us bottom of the list (if there is ever a merger between BA and KLM). I certainly don’t derive any pleasure from the situation surrounding KLM UK and KLM/KLC.
I am not sure what I have left to contribute, I wish you all well.
Regards, O.
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I left "Air UK" nearly 4 years ago. It was a huge decision to go having served with them for many years! During the early 90s this company had a very bright future. A growing network from Stansted which was several years ahead of the low cost carriers,
routes from Gatwick, a "goldmine" in the making at London City and many other good routes. Where are they today? All gone!
The management were just not stong or bold enough to "make it work"! They caved in to KLM and created Buzz which hasn't added a single aircraft since its launch a couple of years ago. Ryanair and easyjet have more than doubled in size during the same period and have a "very clear" strategy. Some things don't change in so much as you just don't know what the next day will bring. It is exactly the same now as it was four years ago!!!!!
I wish I was still with Air UK operating 20 B737s with Sterling service out of Stansted, 10 BAe 146s operating very high yield routes out of London City etc etc. Oh and the occasional visit to Amsterdam!!! What a shame!
routes from Gatwick, a "goldmine" in the making at London City and many other good routes. Where are they today? All gone!
The management were just not stong or bold enough to "make it work"! They caved in to KLM and created Buzz which hasn't added a single aircraft since its launch a couple of years ago. Ryanair and easyjet have more than doubled in size during the same period and have a "very clear" strategy. Some things don't change in so much as you just don't know what the next day will bring. It is exactly the same now as it was four years ago!!!!!
I wish I was still with Air UK operating 20 B737s with Sterling service out of Stansted, 10 BAe 146s operating very high yield routes out of London City etc etc. Oh and the occasional visit to Amsterdam!!! What a shame!
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Otterman; please understand there is nothing personal to you in my posts, you do seem to have reaped the worst of my frustration!! It is appreciated that you do post here to give us a window to the other side.
I should point out that BALPA did not have an input to the terms agreed between KLM and the VNV, they were contacted by the VNV yes....... to be presented with the deal!! BALPA tried to initiate discussions before then but were told they could not talk until the KLC seniority and T and C issue had been resolved.
This week FVP has made it even harder to move to BUZZ, he has stated that any pilots transfering post nov 1st will lose their increments and have to have new T and Cs!!!!!! a Euro 25,000 loss to some people!
Believe me, we are having a rough time of it at the moment, last year when KLC expanded and we were forced to make pilots and ground staff redundant with the reduction of fleet size by 3 aircraft, this year KLC get the bonus of KLM T and Cs and salaries, we get our lives turned upside down and screwed!! It does feel like we are financing KLCs good fortune, that is the reason for my "racist" comment, the dutch are being protected and we are being forced to pay.
I am sure there are many fine and good people in KLM and KLC, and i truly wish them no harm, by the same i hope that my colleagues in KLM and KLC will wake up to the injustice being done here and support us in our fight.
I should point out that BALPA did not have an input to the terms agreed between KLM and the VNV, they were contacted by the VNV yes....... to be presented with the deal!! BALPA tried to initiate discussions before then but were told they could not talk until the KLC seniority and T and C issue had been resolved.
This week FVP has made it even harder to move to BUZZ, he has stated that any pilots transfering post nov 1st will lose their increments and have to have new T and Cs!!!!!! a Euro 25,000 loss to some people!
Believe me, we are having a rough time of it at the moment, last year when KLC expanded and we were forced to make pilots and ground staff redundant with the reduction of fleet size by 3 aircraft, this year KLC get the bonus of KLM T and Cs and salaries, we get our lives turned upside down and screwed!! It does feel like we are financing KLCs good fortune, that is the reason for my "racist" comment, the dutch are being protected and we are being forced to pay.
I am sure there are many fine and good people in KLM and KLC, and i truly wish them no harm, by the same i hope that my colleagues in KLM and KLC will wake up to the injustice being done here and support us in our fight.
Last edited by driver1; 2nd Oct 2002 at 18:59.
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Right, a lot of things are clearer now, but what is BALPA doing now for the ex Air-uk pilots?
That is still not made clear. Are they still negotiating or is there now a fixed deal?
I Wonder and keep on wondering what will happen next?!
That is still not made clear. Are they still negotiating or is there now a fixed deal?
I Wonder and keep on wondering what will happen next?!
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KLM's CEO meeting with unions.
Hello everyone,
Not sure if you guys know a little more. On our end, things at my level are still the same. The KLM CEO did have his meeting with the unions at KLM and Transavia on October second. This in regards to the re-positioning of the low-cost sector within the company. Something that will directly affect my colleagues at KLM UK. Not unexpectedly the unions had to agree to an absolute news blackout. So that is where we are at. Our union’s only communication with us on the subject said that no immediate action on their part was required, based on what they were told.
Regards, O.
Not sure if you guys know a little more. On our end, things at my level are still the same. The KLM CEO did have his meeting with the unions at KLM and Transavia on October second. This in regards to the re-positioning of the low-cost sector within the company. Something that will directly affect my colleagues at KLM UK. Not unexpectedly the unions had to agree to an absolute news blackout. So that is where we are at. Our union’s only communication with us on the subject said that no immediate action on their part was required, based on what they were told.
Regards, O.
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Well,
For me as a Transavia-pilot, things are not so clear.
I have joined this company a few years ago, but now i am worried.
Driver1 stated that FVP puts pressure on the KLM-UK pilots by more or less forcing them to choose before november 1st. Otherwise they would have to accept a new labour agreement.
Could driver1 or any KLM-UK pilot explain some more about this?
Is this just a rumour, or did FVP dare to write this on paper???
(I sincerely hope that BALPA will fight for you!)
I worry that FVP might do the same with Transavia..that is split us up between BUZZ and a Transavia-charter-only company.
And that we may have to choose before we know anything about KLM's plans.
As Otteman said, there is a newsblackout.
I hope the VNV is not left in the dark.
Any news on the KLM-UK side?
hvpilot
For me as a Transavia-pilot, things are not so clear.
I have joined this company a few years ago, but now i am worried.
Driver1 stated that FVP puts pressure on the KLM-UK pilots by more or less forcing them to choose before november 1st. Otherwise they would have to accept a new labour agreement.
Could driver1 or any KLM-UK pilot explain some more about this?
Is this just a rumour, or did FVP dare to write this on paper???
(I sincerely hope that BALPA will fight for you!)
I worry that FVP might do the same with Transavia..that is split us up between BUZZ and a Transavia-charter-only company.
And that we may have to choose before we know anything about KLM's plans.
As Otteman said, there is a newsblackout.
I hope the VNV is not left in the dark.
Any news on the KLM-UK side?
hvpilot
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According to the companies offer, buzz pilots have until Oct 31st to decide to stay put, or move to KLM or KLCuk despite still not having any idea of the future plans/contracts of any of the companies. KLMuk pilots have until the end of December to decide but FVP has insisted that anyone transfering to buzz (but not the other way round) goes back to the bottom of the pay scale.
I think that Otterman and the VNV are going to be disappointed if they still expect to see F100 commands for KLM f/o's as KLMuk Capts are not going to be taking a pay cut of up to 36% to go yellow.
I think that Otterman and the VNV are going to be disappointed if they still expect to see F100 commands for KLM f/o's as KLMuk Capts are not going to be taking a pay cut of up to 36% to go yellow.
Last edited by Flap40; 15th Oct 2002 at 11:08.
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TO All Whom it may concerned.
Not all is well with in KLC either. There is a large group there that are very disadvantaged as well. The VNV has run one to many deals that are to the advantage of KLM mainline pilots at the expense of KLC pilots. The outcome .......both the chief pilot and chief instructor on the Fokker 70 have resigned their management positions to become line pilots.
Not all is well with in KLC either. There is a large group there that are very disadvantaged as well. The VNV has run one to many deals that are to the advantage of KLM mainline pilots at the expense of KLC pilots. The outcome .......both the chief pilot and chief instructor on the Fokker 70 have resigned their management positions to become line pilots.
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Oh, come on, Icura, knowing the ex- chief f70 personally, I can assure you that he hasn`t resigned because of any problems he would have have this deal.
Go stir in another pot, please.
Go stir in another pot, please.
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The VNV assured it's members that KLMuk pilots choosing the KLCuk option will keep the same terms and conditions as they now have for the rest of their careers. It worries me to read here that Buzz is trying to give them pay cuts when they crossover and that KLCuk is trying to worm out of their pension responsibilities, especially because I have heard that from KLMuk line pilots as well. I don't think that they will be able to get away with either of those plans.
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Flap40,
Does FVP mean this for everyone, and regardless if transfer takes place before or after nov 1st?
Long haul,
That's what i've heard too.
Strange that the VNV expects most pilots to transfer to BUZZ while at the same time FVP discourages this.
It seems that with FVP we now have 'a wolf in sheepsclothes'; because if thats what he is planning with KLM-UK/BUZZ, what might he do with Transavia?
hvpilot
Does FVP mean this for everyone, and regardless if transfer takes place before or after nov 1st?
Long haul,
That's what i've heard too.
Strange that the VNV expects most pilots to transfer to BUZZ while at the same time FVP discourages this.
It seems that with FVP we now have 'a wolf in sheepsclothes'; because if thats what he is planning with KLM-UK/BUZZ, what might he do with Transavia?
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Poll
An unofficial internet poll on the KLM uk (Balpa) Forum is at present showing 91% (31 votes submitted) against the loss of Transfer Rights when moving from Blue to Yellow.
If this ratio continues and is repeated in the official ballot then it will be an overwhelming vote against the agreement.
If this ratio continues and is repeated in the official ballot then it will be an overwhelming vote against the agreement.
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hvpilot,
That's it! If you want to go to buzz then you keep your seniority only for rank/holidays/redundancy etc. You go back to the bottom of the pay scale and god only knows what sort of pension!. FVP basically wants us all to join as new-hires on new contracts but does not want the expense of interviewing us! What he has probably not realised is that this deal makes easy/go a much more atractive proposition especially since the F100 is similar to the airbus in operation.
Remember that in the three years that he was at KLMuk we never got any communication from FVP that was not bad news. We never even got a "hi, I'm your new boss" memo. Respect has to be earned and he has run up a serious "overdraft".
The future's bright, but it's not blue or yellow
That's it! If you want to go to buzz then you keep your seniority only for rank/holidays/redundancy etc. You go back to the bottom of the pay scale and god only knows what sort of pension!. FVP basically wants us all to join as new-hires on new contracts but does not want the expense of interviewing us! What he has probably not realised is that this deal makes easy/go a much more atractive proposition especially since the F100 is similar to the airbus in operation.
Remember that in the three years that he was at KLMuk we never got any communication from FVP that was not bad news. We never even got a "hi, I'm your new boss" memo. Respect has to be earned and he has run up a serious "overdraft".
The future's bright, but it's not blue or yellow
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Following the presentation by the Company to the pilots and the subsequent BALPA member meetings this week, it was decided to hold a consultative ballot conducted electronically (via SMS text) to allow the CC to gauge the members feelings whether the offer on the table is to be rejected or accepted.
Whilst this is obviously not a formal ballot for industrial action, it does provide both the company and the CC as a snapshot of the wishes of the membership. If the result is for a rejection of the offer then the BALPA CC Chairman will take the results to the company today and will start the ball rolling for further action as required by industrial law. Apparently, any action started prior to the TUPE split on November 1st CAN be continued after the new company has been formed with no jeopardy.
Voting ends in about 4 hours so time will tell.
Whilst this is obviously not a formal ballot for industrial action, it does provide both the company and the CC as a snapshot of the wishes of the membership. If the result is for a rejection of the offer then the BALPA CC Chairman will take the results to the company today and will start the ball rolling for further action as required by industrial law. Apparently, any action started prior to the TUPE split on November 1st CAN be continued after the new company has been formed with no jeopardy.
Voting ends in about 4 hours so time will tell.
Flap40
Don't let Herod see that comment, he won't like it .
Good luck guys, look forward to seeing some of you on the A319 soon
.
The future's bright, in an orange sort of way.
The future's bright, but it's not blue or yellow
.Good luck guys, look forward to seeing some of you on the A319 soon
.The future's bright, in an orange sort of way
.