CitiExpress Base at Gatwick
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I get the impression that BA have given up at LGW, they are alienating passengers, and can't see the damage it is doing to what used to be a first class operation (streets ahead of handling at LHR). The whole thing has been a shambles for 3 months now. It is virtually impossible to get a turnround anywhere near to schedule because there is always some link in the chain missing. London Victoria Terminal was closed in a hurry, and it wasn't realised that North Terminal would have to handle all the passengers previously checking in downtown!
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: A very long runway
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting times. I have no idea what will happen but rumour control would suggest that once SCOPE has been thrashed out the future could be a re-invention of EOG and CFE operating out of LGW using the 737's and Airbus as the european fleet and the Avro/Dash 8's feeding into it. The rumoured takeover of GB (GB's owners met Uncle Rod last week I have heard) could pave the way for a GB/BA Cityexpress combine within BA (ie a company within a company) running the Gatwick show leaving mainline with the longhaul routes operating out of LHR. I don't think that BA has ever made money on shorthaul and this could be a wise step (from their perspective) by taking profitable franchises and creating a profitable shorthaul BA. Who knows? The only facts are that there are lots of rumours!! We shall see.........
Didn't this sort of arrangement exist before it became BA ie BOAC etc?
The comments on other threads which have degenerated into a bit of a slanging match between pilots of the franchises and BA are not the issues that "the management" will worry about. I am sure that articulate suits could present a convincing business case for the GB/BACX British Airways Gatwick setup and more importantly perhaps assuage the city that it will compete effectively with the easyjet/ryanair competition. Oops have almost convinced myself - better go and see my doctor!
Didn't this sort of arrangement exist before it became BA ie BOAC etc?
The comments on other threads which have degenerated into a bit of a slanging match between pilots of the franchises and BA are not the issues that "the management" will worry about. I am sure that articulate suits could present a convincing business case for the GB/BACX British Airways Gatwick setup and more importantly perhaps assuage the city that it will compete effectively with the easyjet/ryanair competition. Oops have almost convinced myself - better go and see my doctor!
Last edited by MaxAOB; 23rd Sep 2002 at 11:54.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Traveller
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MaxAOB...good post. And probably just what BA are thinking. However, if it's not managed properly then all that will happen is that GB Airways will get sucked down the same plughole as CFE, Brymon, etc.
The management of shorthaul at LGW has GOT to be taken away from BA. They simply do not know how to do it. CFE Management could have done it and made a profit. GB Management can do it and make a profit. BUT ONLY IF ALLOWED TO MANAGE WITHOUT EXCESSIVE INTERFERENCE.
If such a move is MIS-managed by BA (how dare I suggest such a thing?) then GB will simply end up saddled with the costs, overheads, history, and cock-ups of the past and are doomed to fail. Just look at the handling costs in the North Terminal, before you even start on the management issues.
If, as you suggest, they are to present a serious threat to the ryanair/easyjet competition then they've got to start from scratch....not try and mould what they've already got.
The management of shorthaul at LGW has GOT to be taken away from BA. They simply do not know how to do it. CFE Management could have done it and made a profit. GB Management can do it and make a profit. BUT ONLY IF ALLOWED TO MANAGE WITHOUT EXCESSIVE INTERFERENCE.
If such a move is MIS-managed by BA (how dare I suggest such a thing?) then GB will simply end up saddled with the costs, overheads, history, and cock-ups of the past and are doomed to fail. Just look at the handling costs in the North Terminal, before you even start on the management issues.
If, as you suggest, they are to present a serious threat to the ryanair/easyjet competition then they've got to start from scratch....not try and mould what they've already got.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: London
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Really KK - i read with interest.......
"CFE Management could have done it and made a profit"
where did the chief pilot at LGW originate from???? granted CM may not be able to do all he wants too do and may have his hands tied by the chaps from down the road - but surely LGW management has a little to say about the operation which their running............
For example surely there are better ways of improving morale than rostering pilots to 4 sector days with 40min turnarounds, finishing the day with 15 minutes to spare before going into discretion? with certain departments expecting you to extend FDP on day 5 of early`s, when its hard enough to remember which spot you parked your car in............and dont tell me those on the 4th floor have no influence on the `renegade scheduling dept`
This is but a tiny example of how morale has got to be improved, if the pax see a smily face with every body enjoying there job
people tend to be happier and things pull together a lot more! look at whats happened to eng/drivers/cc - if the employees were treated better the operation would run a lot better and some of the `missing links` in the chain ( which we see daily and which causes most of the disruptions) would in my opinion, not occur.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Traveller
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Valid comments.....but how many CFE management are left. The person you refer to is almost a lone voice within a huge organisation with all the ´baggage´that goes with it. I doubt he on his own stands a hope in hell of turning this supertanker around!!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Pub
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I heard this rumour about 3 weeks ago now and didn't even consider putting it on here as I thought the chances of it being true are very slim and the last thing we need at SH LGW is more whispers about being made a low cost op or being closed down all together.
But it would seem that it would be more likely to be true than before as I am hearing it more and more day to day now at work form people who alledgedly "know people".
All I can say is I can understand that BA are trying desperately to turn a profit at LGW and everyone at LGW is doing their best to make it a profitable operation. But the company do seem to have lost interest in it in relation to improving it by keeping staff levels realistic in the terminal and upgrading longhaul aircraft.
Unfortunately it's the age old plan of action to impress the city and perhaps try to keep us in the FTSE 100 - go in cut staff and costs and make the balance sheet imeadiatly look better. Unfortunately the remainder of the operation are left to carry on and as has happened at LGW; the ship has been sinking over the summer and PAX jumping off onto another ship not letting in water and so the balance sheet in the long term will be worse.
I'm not sure how merging GB/BACEwith SH LGW will make things better, I'm no expert. But if merging more opperations into SH LGW will make it a profitable concern then isn't that is what BA has to and will do? After all BA is in the business to "make" money alledgedly. We've certainly got lots of space at JB house to be able to handle a much larger opperation. I know it may not be everyones ideal solution but it may help the company get back into profit, what is the alternative? I have no wish to see the company go down the tubes and my job - career aspirations -and pension with it, and I'm sure no one else does too!!
But it would seem that it would be more likely to be true than before as I am hearing it more and more day to day now at work form people who alledgedly "know people".
All I can say is I can understand that BA are trying desperately to turn a profit at LGW and everyone at LGW is doing their best to make it a profitable operation. But the company do seem to have lost interest in it in relation to improving it by keeping staff levels realistic in the terminal and upgrading longhaul aircraft.
Unfortunately it's the age old plan of action to impress the city and perhaps try to keep us in the FTSE 100 - go in cut staff and costs and make the balance sheet imeadiatly look better. Unfortunately the remainder of the operation are left to carry on and as has happened at LGW; the ship has been sinking over the summer and PAX jumping off onto another ship not letting in water and so the balance sheet in the long term will be worse.
I'm not sure how merging GB/BACEwith SH LGW will make things better, I'm no expert. But if merging more opperations into SH LGW will make it a profitable concern then isn't that is what BA has to and will do? After all BA is in the business to "make" money alledgedly. We've certainly got lots of space at JB house to be able to handle a much larger opperation. I know it may not be everyones ideal solution but it may help the company get back into profit, what is the alternative? I have no wish to see the company go down the tubes and my job - career aspirations -and pension with it, and I'm sure no one else does too!!
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: third rock from the sun
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking at the way the Share price is going (as I type this it's 95p) I think this may all be academic before too long as I can see the Shareholders leading a revolt particularly as BA can now be classed a a "Penny Share" Market cap is also looking like it will go below £1Billion. Mismanagement must now be on borrowed time.
Re the comments on GB and ex CFE Management I seem to recall that during discussions with CFE after the take over such was the concern of some of the CFE chaps they met Uncle Rod and it became clear that the EOG Management had been in there before them and stiched them up (JB was thrown out of one meeting for telling Rod what he thought) Re CM, personally I think he's a great guy, however, he was a late addition to the team replacing DMcQ and, to the best of my knowledge, held no shares in CFE, it is likely he needs the job as much as the rest of us.
Re GB, I haven't heard that re-integration rumour before, however, how many of you know that BA once had a large slice of GB and agreed to an earn out with them some time ago? Looks like another 180 in progress??
Highly likely that the LGW saga will rate as one of the biggest Airline F++kup's of all time.
edited for typo's
Re the comments on GB and ex CFE Management I seem to recall that during discussions with CFE after the take over such was the concern of some of the CFE chaps they met Uncle Rod and it became clear that the EOG Management had been in there before them and stiched them up (JB was thrown out of one meeting for telling Rod what he thought) Re CM, personally I think he's a great guy, however, he was a late addition to the team replacing DMcQ and, to the best of my knowledge, held no shares in CFE, it is likely he needs the job as much as the rest of us.
Re GB, I haven't heard that re-integration rumour before, however, how many of you know that BA once had a large slice of GB and agreed to an earn out with them some time ago? Looks like another 180 in progress??
Highly likely that the LGW saga will rate as one of the biggest Airline F++kup's of all time.
edited for typo's
Last edited by swede-basher; 24th Sep 2002 at 13:38.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: London
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
swede-basher
Comments regarding CM were not meant too be personal - I understand the difficulties he`s facing cant be an easy job! however some of the decisions that have been made seem more to be reactive than proactive - surely with the experience of some of the management at LGW these problems could have been forseen and avoided; I understand that there probably trying to enforce policies that have been pressed on them by those in waterside, however there does seem to have been some almighty screw ups!
Its extremely frustrating when you can see how these problems are going to arise, from working on the front line day to day - you then express your concerns to those in the decision making process and yet nother seems to be done - result months down the line said problem arises and a half baked and shortsighted attempt to solve them is implemented.
I understand that this is mainly due to the management structure of BA - however when your doing your best to make sure that your flights get away on time, you tend too come up against a brick wall when trying to resolve certain problems!
e.g - flight delayed by approx 4 hours due slot ( bad wx at dest) after 2 hours decide to bus pax back to terminal ( as no air con, toilet facilities e.t.c) get told by certain groups that this cannot be authorised as meetings at LHR are trying too decide what is best! when the acft commander on the ground fully appreciated the situation and came up with a soloution! Pax transport requested and was told that it would arrive asap - 50 mins later after a host of delaying tactics transport arrives and crew are told its not worth taking pax off!
How on earth can we provide a service that is deemed acceptable by the pax when those in the company are preventing you from doing your job and making the decisions which we should be entrusted with! Majority of crews have years of experience and have seen the situation before so surely we are the best too make an immediate, educated decision on how to rectify the prob!
This is one of the reasons why morale is so low!
I know BA pilots get a lot of stick from certain groups using this forum, I think this is totally unjustified - we all do the same jobs and encounter the same problems each day!!!! people say that mainline crews are overpaid and inefficient, this is just not the case - the crews are very efficient, it is just the resources and restrictions placed on us by up high that makes the public and those outside the airline percieve us to be so!
I agree with you swede - if the share price drops any lower maybe we will get what we desperately need - a complete clearout of the current management! perhaps then we can get on with the task in hand, be it mainline/ex cfe/brymon, and fly pax from A to B with a standard of punctuality and service that will make them want to fly with us again!
surely that can only be in the best interests of everyone!
Comments regarding CM were not meant too be personal - I understand the difficulties he`s facing cant be an easy job! however some of the decisions that have been made seem more to be reactive than proactive - surely with the experience of some of the management at LGW these problems could have been forseen and avoided; I understand that there probably trying to enforce policies that have been pressed on them by those in waterside, however there does seem to have been some almighty screw ups!
Its extremely frustrating when you can see how these problems are going to arise, from working on the front line day to day - you then express your concerns to those in the decision making process and yet nother seems to be done - result months down the line said problem arises and a half baked and shortsighted attempt to solve them is implemented.
I understand that this is mainly due to the management structure of BA - however when your doing your best to make sure that your flights get away on time, you tend too come up against a brick wall when trying to resolve certain problems!
e.g - flight delayed by approx 4 hours due slot ( bad wx at dest) after 2 hours decide to bus pax back to terminal ( as no air con, toilet facilities e.t.c) get told by certain groups that this cannot be authorised as meetings at LHR are trying too decide what is best! when the acft commander on the ground fully appreciated the situation and came up with a soloution! Pax transport requested and was told that it would arrive asap - 50 mins later after a host of delaying tactics transport arrives and crew are told its not worth taking pax off!
How on earth can we provide a service that is deemed acceptable by the pax when those in the company are preventing you from doing your job and making the decisions which we should be entrusted with! Majority of crews have years of experience and have seen the situation before so surely we are the best too make an immediate, educated decision on how to rectify the prob!
This is one of the reasons why morale is so low!
I know BA pilots get a lot of stick from certain groups using this forum, I think this is totally unjustified - we all do the same jobs and encounter the same problems each day!!!! people say that mainline crews are overpaid and inefficient, this is just not the case - the crews are very efficient, it is just the resources and restrictions placed on us by up high that makes the public and those outside the airline percieve us to be so!
I agree with you swede - if the share price drops any lower maybe we will get what we desperately need - a complete clearout of the current management! perhaps then we can get on with the task in hand, be it mainline/ex cfe/brymon, and fly pax from A to B with a standard of punctuality and service that will make them want to fly with us again!
surely that can only be in the best interests of everyone!
Guest
Posts: n/a
In my whole existance I have never wanted to see a 'revolting' shareholder more than I do now.
The whole setup needs a good kick up the @rse.
The lower levels need to be given more control over day to day decisions. There's no point in having flt deck, cabin crew and ground staff with years of experience( a lot of them have vast experience ) in the daily running of the job and then shackling them with 'barking management' who can't make the quick decisions that are sometimes required.
Maybe it's time for BA to go.
There is talk of BT being better broken into it's component parts. Maybe BA should go the same way and return to the old companies it was with longhaul and shorthaul as separate companies.
The whole setup needs a good kick up the @rse.
The lower levels need to be given more control over day to day decisions. There's no point in having flt deck, cabin crew and ground staff with years of experience( a lot of them have vast experience ) in the daily running of the job and then shackling them with 'barking management' who can't make the quick decisions that are sometimes required.
Maybe it's time for BA to go.
There is talk of BT being better broken into it's component parts. Maybe BA should go the same way and return to the old companies it was with longhaul and shorthaul as separate companies.
This will probably inflame matters further still on the subject of BA management but has anyone seen the application in today's CAA Official Record http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/213/1559.pdf by BA to lease in two SN Brussels Airlines Avro RJs for the winter season - to "provide extra capacity"? Does anyone know why these aircraft are needed and where they will be based?
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Didn't BA have a successful, profitable, strongly branded low cost arm called Go-Fly?
If they had not sold it then today it would be worth something like a third of a Billion (thats what Stelios paid). Or roughly a third of the market cap of all of BA.
Would it not be the ideal vehicle to re-launch Gatwick with? Would it not be the ideal thing with which to persuade the city with? Would it not be the ideal long term strategy for BA - short haul Europe mostly Go; Medium and Long Haul mostly BA mainline; domestic network mainly specialised smaller franchises.
Or is that too obvious?
Gatwick is a fantastic airport. It not only captures a big chunk on London but sits right at the centre of the wealthiest region in Europe. It, in itself, is an efficient airport in terms of runway and ground utilisation. It has excellent transport links and is well known and used by a LOT of passengers.
That BA are apparently apathetic about its future is worrying indeed. If Gatwick falls then how much longer will Fortress Heathrow remain free from the Orange tails?
Interesting Times.
Ben.
If they had not sold it then today it would be worth something like a third of a Billion (thats what Stelios paid). Or roughly a third of the market cap of all of BA.
Would it not be the ideal vehicle to re-launch Gatwick with? Would it not be the ideal thing with which to persuade the city with? Would it not be the ideal long term strategy for BA - short haul Europe mostly Go; Medium and Long Haul mostly BA mainline; domestic network mainly specialised smaller franchises.
Or is that too obvious?
Gatwick is a fantastic airport. It not only captures a big chunk on London but sits right at the centre of the wealthiest region in Europe. It, in itself, is an efficient airport in terms of runway and ground utilisation. It has excellent transport links and is well known and used by a LOT of passengers.
That BA are apparently apathetic about its future is worrying indeed. If Gatwick falls then how much longer will Fortress Heathrow remain free from the Orange tails?
Interesting Times.
Ben.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: third rock from the sun
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flight Rider, perhaps they are for additional back up given BA have trashed the ones they inherited from CFE??
Did I just see "common sense" and "BA Management" used in the same line? Not a hope, Mismanagement couldn't organise a watch roster for a one man submarine.
King Kee, keep guessing, though I may have the T Shirt and the Video.
Did I just see "common sense" and "BA Management" used in the same line? Not a hope, Mismanagement couldn't organise a watch roster for a one man submarine.
King Kee, keep guessing, though I may have the T Shirt and the Video.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beerbelly- I shouldn't listen to any longhaul crews talking about the future of LGW. They have as much of an idea of what is going on there as Nero had on fire prevention. They only realised that the RJ crews had negotiated Grandfather rights months after it happened, they are only really interested in 'golden runways' and will talk down anything else just to make themselves feel better.
Sick- Who in their right minds would take on BA with its debt and its 47 unions. At the moment BA is an airline run for and by Cabin Crew the management is scared s***less of them and so continues to pour money down their throats.
King Kee-CM managed like Genghis Khan at CFE with the lovely BB backing him up.Grantd he can make 1+1=2 but he couldn't lead a bunch of kids to a birthday party let alone BA's LGW operation. CFE was a small airline run out of portacabins next to a sewage farm with some of the worst paid crews in Europe, if thats what you are looking for I'm sure BB has started a new operation hasn't he? Talk about rose tinted spectacles!!
Ben Evans- BA views LGW as LHR's third runway. LHR probably won't get a third runway so BA are staying at LGW (Rod E last week) word on the street is that Z car park will eventually become a bit longer and thinner with white stripes at each end!
There are some great rumours on this thread. The whole of the industry is in deep ****, no airline is afe at the moment, particularly with the yanks queing up to go into the rediculous Chapter 11 arrangements that will enable them to avoid the market forces that they hypocritically howl on about whenevr anyone threatens their dominance of the market. All the bickering on this and other threads is missing the point. All our jobs are under threat.
Sick- Who in their right minds would take on BA with its debt and its 47 unions. At the moment BA is an airline run for and by Cabin Crew the management is scared s***less of them and so continues to pour money down their throats.
King Kee-CM managed like Genghis Khan at CFE with the lovely BB backing him up.Grantd he can make 1+1=2 but he couldn't lead a bunch of kids to a birthday party let alone BA's LGW operation. CFE was a small airline run out of portacabins next to a sewage farm with some of the worst paid crews in Europe, if thats what you are looking for I'm sure BB has started a new operation hasn't he? Talk about rose tinted spectacles!!
Ben Evans- BA views LGW as LHR's third runway. LHR probably won't get a third runway so BA are staying at LGW (Rod E last week) word on the street is that Z car park will eventually become a bit longer and thinner with white stripes at each end!
There are some great rumours on this thread. The whole of the industry is in deep ****, no airline is afe at the moment, particularly with the yanks queing up to go into the rediculous Chapter 11 arrangements that will enable them to avoid the market forces that they hypocritically howl on about whenevr anyone threatens their dominance of the market. All the bickering on this and other threads is missing the point. All our jobs are under threat.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Worry not folks-help is at hand. When GB Airways take over the running of short haul at LGW you can all work for an efficient and friendly company with a great future!
OK so may be that's a bit strong but those of you in the know will realise that this is what might happen! With the backing of the Bland Group GB could easily be in a position to take over the North Terminal (it's been proposed before)
OK so may be that's a bit strong but those of you in the know will realise that this is what might happen! With the backing of the Bland Group GB could easily be in a position to take over the North Terminal (it's been proposed before)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: MAN, The centre of the universe
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it just me, or am I missing something in all this.
The BA managers aren't as stupid as everyone is painting them.
If you all put yourself in their shoes for a moment.
On one hand (Mainline BA) you have a high cost company that is costing an arm and a leg to run, allowances, salary, pensions, transport [from crewroom/aircraft] etc.etc.etc.
On the other hand you have a compnay that cost a fraction to run compaired to mainline. Top salary for a Citiexpress turbo pilot, and I reiterate TOP, £46,667. Night allowance £21 (I know you don't believe it, but check with any of them) How many BA F/Os are on more than that.
So if you were management which company would you promote.
Mainline are and have been on easy street for so long everyone thinks it's normal, it ain't, and it won't stay like this for ever.
The BA managers aren't as stupid as everyone is painting them.
If you all put yourself in their shoes for a moment.
On one hand (Mainline BA) you have a high cost company that is costing an arm and a leg to run, allowances, salary, pensions, transport [from crewroom/aircraft] etc.etc.etc.
On the other hand you have a compnay that cost a fraction to run compaired to mainline. Top salary for a Citiexpress turbo pilot, and I reiterate TOP, £46,667. Night allowance £21 (I know you don't believe it, but check with any of them) How many BA F/Os are on more than that.
So if you were management which company would you promote.
Mainline are and have been on easy street for so long everyone thinks it's normal, it ain't, and it won't stay like this for ever.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
R Don, you obviously havn't a clue how much BA crews are paid in shorthaul. There are NO repeat NO FO's at LGW that are on anything like 46 grand. All this banging on about how inefficient mainline crews are at BA just shows how little you know about how hard we are working at LGW as well. This self righteous uninformed b******* that everybody seems to be trying to hit the mainline crews with is , to say the least, counterproductive. Are you really as short sighted and misinformed as it seems you all are or do you just like the self righteous glow you all seem to be basking in at the moment?
If BALPA gets its way and puts all BACE, GB and other franchise crews on the BA seniority list you will all be better off. Not only will you be able to stay in your jobs with no loss of terms and conditions, in fact they could improve, you will also, in the long term, have access to a greater variety of flying than you ever would get at BACE. If you don't want that variety, never mind you don't have to change what your doing, if you do great!
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but to call us liars at BA is way wide of the mark and incredibly insulting. We need to drag this debate out of the nursery and into reality before another thread becomes devisive and insulting.
You all seem to be willing the downward movement of terms and conditions just to spite another group of pilots and feel better about not being paid as much as they are. We all want as secure a future as possible at BA and I'm sure that most of us wish that everyone was on the best T's and C's possible, not necessarily ours by the way! Lets hope it all comes off and we see the lot of all UK pilots improve as a result.
If BALPA gets its way and puts all BACE, GB and other franchise crews on the BA seniority list you will all be better off. Not only will you be able to stay in your jobs with no loss of terms and conditions, in fact they could improve, you will also, in the long term, have access to a greater variety of flying than you ever would get at BACE. If you don't want that variety, never mind you don't have to change what your doing, if you do great!
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but to call us liars at BA is way wide of the mark and incredibly insulting. We need to drag this debate out of the nursery and into reality before another thread becomes devisive and insulting.
You all seem to be willing the downward movement of terms and conditions just to spite another group of pilots and feel better about not being paid as much as they are. We all want as secure a future as possible at BA and I'm sure that most of us wish that everyone was on the best T's and C's possible, not necessarily ours by the way! Lets hope it all comes off and we see the lot of all UK pilots improve as a result.