Lufty at SFO
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Can you do that in the US ? Just curious. In ICAO land , which is basically the rest of the world, only the PIC can cancel IFR , never the controller.
Just checked with a colleague flying for LH on 747s: Denti is correct , the “daylight only” SOP restriction is not about visual approches but visual acquisition of other traffic .
Has apparently never been a real issue before probably because normal LH OPS to SFO are daylight.
Looks like this time some people became or were inflexible , the tone and language used did not help either .
As safety was never impaired I am even not sure the FAA will investigate . A diversion is not an incident , although DLH might see it differently .
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Just checked with a colleague flying for LH on 747s: Denti is correct , the “daylight only” SOP restriction is not about visual approches but visual acquisition of other traffic .
Has apparently never been a real issue before probably because normal LH OPS to SFO are daylight.
Looks like this time some people became or were inflexible , the tone and language used did not help either .
As safety was never impaired I am even not sure the FAA will investigate . A diversion is not an incident , although DLH might see it differently .
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I think LH’s F-bomb and “Ha!” interjection were indicative of his embarrassment and frustration in having to publicly declare that, as an international captain flying a state-of-the-art airliner, he was not allowed to execute a procedure that virtually every other arrival into SFO was safely executing. And to cap it off, he is then left to publicly divert to the inferior of the cesspool of San Francisco.
It’s telling that a few weeks ago there was much outrage that a Delta 767 ‘declared an emergency’ after experiencing an engine failure departing a European airport instead of stating ‘Mayday’
Fine, if you want to make that point, then you have to comply with the specific requirements when operating into a U.S. airport or end service to that destination
Pretty simple
Fine, if you want to make that point, then you have to comply with the specific requirements when operating into a U.S. airport or end service to that destination
Pretty simple
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Unprofessional
ATC job is to provide a service to all aircraft that operate in any airspace throughout the World. This is a service provider not providing said services. The small minded controller needs a career change.
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Following the Lufty SFO Incident I dealt with a Child at JFK.
On handover to the tower controller the other morning at JFK International airport. The approach controller told me to call New York Tower on the appropriate frequency. I followed the instructions and called New York Tower. We received stone cold silence. I reconfirmed the frequency from my chart and noted that the tower callsign was in fact Kennedy Tower. Frequency was correct. Kennedy Tower call sign was used. This time we received a child like reply. " What do you want?" No identification.... Reported established on the ILS approach for 33R. The next reply was again unprofessional and childish. In 32 years of flying I have never experienced such unprofessional controlling.
New York/JFK controllers have a horrible reputation. Obviously the selection criteria for these controllers is substandard.
New York/JFK controllers have a horrible reputation. Obviously the selection criteria for these controllers is substandard.
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From where I sit, European pilots seem pretty reluctant to do visuals. Why is that?
.......Why should they get special treatment? No other operators are demanding this, not sure how they thought swearing at the controller would help them, that was highly unprofessional, LH sops are the source of the problem here but this pilot made things much worse with his attitude and made a diversion inevitable......
If you think this, how do you ever land at night ?! On clear nights we can see the runway from miles away. Maintaining separation from a very close parallel approach at night is not so easy, hence, presumably, the Lufthansa restriction - probably made by their flight safety team, not just 'some bloke in an office'.
50 years ago we sometimes had an hour plus holding into Heathrow, partly due to SOP of being fully established in landing configuration and speed by 3,000 ft..continuous descents and maintain 180 knots to the marker were introduced which many found unable to comply with..eventually this was accepted as was land after clearances. At the same time others could manage the Kai Tak and Gibraltar round the rock avoiding smoky joe approaches. Education and the introduction is wide bodies changed things.
Fortunately my next flag carrier operated into a lot of unusual places where electricity had only recently been discovered and by extensive training with high standards and a sensible approach to SOP we were able to operate into airfields which some would say was imprudent.
Sadly, imho, training and piloting skills along with common sense have been replaced by automatics, acars and the replacement of “captaincy” in some airlines.
Watching the video presentation I agree that nobody did anything wrong..it’s just the obvious evolution of the system with the loss of the skill set to fly an aircraft manually and look out of the window..maybe a few minutes on oxygen during descent might have helped but that is probably verboten now.
Fortunately my next flag carrier operated into a lot of unusual places where electricity had only recently been discovered and by extensive training with high standards and a sensible approach to SOP we were able to operate into airfields which some would say was imprudent.
Sadly, imho, training and piloting skills along with common sense have been replaced by automatics, acars and the replacement of “captaincy” in some airlines.
Watching the video presentation I agree that nobody did anything wrong..it’s just the obvious evolution of the system with the loss of the skill set to fly an aircraft manually and look out of the window..maybe a few minutes on oxygen during descent might have helped but that is probably verboten now.
It’s a charted procedure in the FMS! There are no landmarks you need to find other than the runway. It’s hard to miss that at night. It’s flown just like an instrument approach. It’s a very easy and benign charted visual compared to some other airports like LGA and DCA. The ILS is available for glideslope and FMS for lateral
SLF when it comes to airline ops but it sounds very much, in my humble opinion, to a management pilot who is unfamiliar with local procedures and using his management status to brow beat ATC. I say "unfamiliar with procedures" because if it was the airlines requirement ATC would have been familiar with it, LH has been operating there for considerable time, unless it was recently introduced, in which case it hadn't been adequately communicated. On the other hand perhaps the ATC was new to the position and not up to speed with LH unique requirement.
Unable to see LH's problem given the chart.
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If you think this, how do you ever land at night ?! On clear nights we can see the runway from miles away. Maintaining separation from a very close parallel approach at night is not so easy, hence, presumably, the Lufthansa restriction - probably made by their flight safety team, not just 'some bloke in an office'.
Originally Posted by Sailvi767
They were probably assigned the quiet bridge visual. This is a published procedure which is built into the FMS and uses the localizer.
Originally Posted by Sailvi767
As far as the SFO approach it’s a charted visual to intercept the ILS.
Originally Posted by Sailvi767
It’s a charted procedure in the FMS!
Originally Posted by Sailvi767
The ILS is available for glideslope and FMS for lateral.
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 14th Nov 2023 at 01:44.
Originally Posted by Check Airman
they basically tell the bigger plane not to overtake the smaller one on the parallel.
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As I've done that approach a few times before, I'd say I'm reasonably familiar with it. Are you? I've never had to do anything crazy. Have you never flown an approach with reference to another airplane?
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Using VS to help you while on a localiser isn't actually difficult. I'm a bit concerned/confused here. Are you saying that anything other than a straight-in ILS that's aligned with the runway presents some sort of threat?
Originally Posted by Check Airman
Using VS to help you while on a localiser isn't actually difficult.
Originally Posted by Check Airman
As I've done that approach a few times before
Originally Posted by Check Airman
I'm a bit concerned/confused here
Originally Posted by Check Airman
Are you saying that anything other than a straight-in ILS that's aligned with the runway presents some sort of threat?
Bloggs,
I’ve done the approach countless times in the 737, & a few times in the 350. It’s not complicated, & Salivi/Airman have described it well. LNAV/VNAV it all the way (or FLS on the bus). On the 28R side I may arm APP after the final RNAV waypoint, or more likely click everything off & just fly it. If I think of it next time I’m at work, I’ll load it in the FMC to show you how it looks.
The speed control aspect is no big deal either - fly your assigned speed (typically 170 to 5), & don’t overtake traffic on the parallel.
The approach chart Megan posted doesn’t make it clear that the approaches DO intercept the LOC late on the arrival; I’ll post the Jepp chart next time I’m near my work iPad.
I’ve done the approach countless times in the 737, & a few times in the 350. It’s not complicated, & Salivi/Airman have described it well. LNAV/VNAV it all the way (or FLS on the bus). On the 28R side I may arm APP after the final RNAV waypoint, or more likely click everything off & just fly it. If I think of it next time I’m at work, I’ll load it in the FMC to show you how it looks.
The speed control aspect is no big deal either - fly your assigned speed (typically 170 to 5), & don’t overtake traffic on the parallel.
The approach chart Megan posted doesn’t make it clear that the approaches DO intercept the LOC late on the arrival; I’ll post the Jepp chart next time I’m near my work iPad.
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Who said anything about being on the LLZ? Look at the chart, for goodness sake. The LLZ is way off the "RNAV" QB track. I'm beginning to think that you have done nothing like this in a jet.
The RNAV visual has a pretty easy to follow FMS procedure. Load it and off you go. Even if you wanted to fly the procedure that was shown, it's not really hard...
How many times in a high-capacity RPT jet?
Not sure what that is, but a few times in an A321. Incidentally, every time was at night. Again...pretty unremarkable approach.
Agree.
Well der, obviously! That's what the whole topic is about. I give up.
The RNAV visual has a pretty easy to follow FMS procedure. Load it and off you go. Even if you wanted to fly the procedure that was shown, it's not really hard...
How many times in a high-capacity RPT jet?
Not sure what that is, but a few times in an A321. Incidentally, every time was at night. Again...pretty unremarkable approach.
Agree.
Well der, obviously! That's what the whole topic is about. I give up.
Are these dangerous approaches that only the Atlantic Barons are capable of flying, or should any competent professional pilot be able to execute them? The approach into SFO is considerably easier than all of the above. I suspect you'd also consider me dangerous, as my last landing was a night time visual, sans automation.
This has got nothing to do with anyone's ability to fly a visual approach. It's about maintaining your own separation from other aircraft visually at night. The SFO metar at that time was FEW 500, SCT 700.
I can understand LH reluctance to follow anyone in. They went to Oakland.
I can understand LH reluctance to follow anyone in. They went to Oakland.
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This has got nothing to do with anyone's ability to fly a visual approach. It's about maintaining your own separation from other aircraft visually at night. The SFO metar at that time was FEW 500, SCT 700.
I can understand LH reluctance to follow anyone in. They went to Oakland.
I can understand LH reluctance to follow anyone in. They went to Oakland.
1. The METAR is just a snapshot. The conditions could've improved quite a bit since the observation, or really weren't that bad to begin with.
2. Other planes seem to have been getting in just fine. If the clouds were a factor, they wouldn't be doing visuals. People would be complaining, and they'd switch to the ILS.
If you read what the NORCAL controller wrote above, they weren't trying to be difficult, but having a heavy need an ILS in that particular situation was almost as disruptive as needing to use the opposite direction runway- they'll accommodate you if you need it, but there's going to be a delay. For the record, given the situation they were in, I'd probably have diverted to OAK as well.
Again, I'm not faulting the crew for following their SOP, but the SOP prevented them from executing a perfectly mundane approach that is safely done by hundreds of airplanes every day.