Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

U.K. NATS Systems Failure

Wikiposts
Search
Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

U.K. NATS Systems Failure

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 21st Nov 2023, 12:41
  #381 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Home
Posts: 1,020
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
One thing puzzles me in the recent NATs performance critique on these Forums. As recent as yesterday there were reports of ATC flow restrictions at Heathrow due Controller absence/sickness. Gatwick have also had repeated ATC delays reported for the same reason. ( Recently Tower controllers)
During my airline career substantial resources of expensive flying staff, pilots and cabin crew, were employed to cover this, in the form of Standby duties. On my last Long Haul fleet three full flight deck crews were rostered every day to cover last minute crew shortages due sickness etc.
It appears there is no such facility available to cover these avoidable NATS delays. Surely when an ATC controller “goes sick” etc. at short notice, there should be adequate rostered controllers at home to cover these normal eventualities?
cessnapete is offline  
Old 21st Nov 2023, 14:10
  #382 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 654
Received 9 Likes on 5 Posts
cessnapete, 2 answers to that.

1. how many crew did/does your airline employ that are ‘interchangeable’? I’m guessing an airline could have 100-200 type rated pilots and to employ 5 extra for contingency would add 2.5-5% costs (simple maths to make a point).

An ATC unit might have 30 controllers (bigger units would have more but only valid within a smaller, sector specific group).

You can’t take a DVR sector controller and plug them in on LAKES just because there’s a shortage on that sector. It’s like asking a Boeing pilot to fill in on an Airbus for a couple of days.

If you want to add an extra 5 staff for ATC standbys that’s a 17% increase in costs.


2. One of the previous pricing control period agreements for NATS (NERL) gave the choice to airlines of bronze service with low cost and higher expected delays, silver or gold service with higher costs and lower delays.
The unanimous answer was a cheap as possible.


NATS seems to be at a stage where delays are generally very low but occasionally batched together when a headline making failure occurs.
I believe NATS handles 24% of European traffic and contributes 3.1% of delays.

Last edited by Del Prado; 21st Nov 2023 at 14:58.
Del Prado is offline  
Old 21st Nov 2023, 19:44
  #383 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,689
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Del Prado

You can’t take a DVR sector controller and plug them in on LAKES just because there’s a shortage on that sector. It’s like asking a Boeing pilot to fill in on an Airbus for a couple of days.
If you want to add an extra 5 staff for ATC standbys that’s a 17% increase in costs.

2. One of the previous pricing control period agreements for NATS (NERL) gave the choice to airlines of bronze service with low cost and higher expected delays, silver or gold service with higher costs and lower delays.
The unanimous answer was a cheap as possible.
.
The point of the validations on sectors is largely misunderstood by outsiders and even some of ATC managers who are often just looking at numbers not validations., made even more acute with the recent licensing regulations with minimum numbers of hours on a sector to remain current.. This now an issue everywhere, not only in the UK.
On the second remark, same old same ; In the 90s when we set up the CFMU, one of the main discussion point was , do we build a system to cater for the peaks of for the average traffic ? Unanimous decision pushed by the airlines, to make a plan using average yearly numbers. So from the start we created a system that will cause delays during the peak demands, whether hourly . weekly, or yearly . Some have also forgotten that.
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2023, 15:55
  #384 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern England
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
CAA have appointed the Panel and published Terms of Reference. "Sneaked Out" might be a better term than published. Last time they had an expert in Safety Critical Systems on the panel, I'm not sure there is anybody with quite that expertise this time around.
eglnyt is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2023, 16:27
  #385 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Any link?
Neo380 is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2023, 16:56
  #386 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern England
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It's on the CAA's page for the Investigation. I just search for NATS on their Home Page and it's one of the first few entries.
eglnyt is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2023, 17:42
  #387 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: A place in the sun
Age: 82
Posts: 1,268
Received 48 Likes on 19 Posts
Again, ATC Watcher is right. He knows what he is talking about.
Bergerie1 is online now  
Old 8th Dec 2023, 17:48
  #388 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
He may be, but looking forwards, as we have to, don't think we'll be using different computers for each sector, when the bulk of this work is digitised.
Neo380 is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2024, 10:34
  #389 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern England
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
CAA has issued an Interim Report available from the News section at the bottom of its Home Page
eglnyt is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2024, 10:47
  #390 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by eglnyt
CAA has issued an Interim Report available from the News section at the bottom of its Home Page
'Rob Bishton, Chief Executive of the UK Civil Aviation Authority, added: “The UK Air Traffic Control system is vital to the safe and efficient management of millions of air journeys each year. [very true]“This interim report helps with the understanding of what went wrong, what worked well in response to this, and importantly what action can be taken to improve the UK’s aviation system for the future."' [Hmmm]

That's pretty disingenuous in what's turning into an Orwellian masterclass in obfuscation. The one thing that's very clear, NATS doesn't ever want to let into the public domain what really went wrong, and how they messed up.

What has happened, in the interim, is a major realisation of how serious this 'single point of failure' type incident could be in a future with 10x more aircraft, mostly drones, in the next decade, with organisations like Think now saying many more. Yet another repeat of this incident could lead to truly catastrophic outcomes, especially for all of those aircraft not 'manually handled' by controllers, and certainly not just the 700,000 delayed flights this incident caused.
Neo380 is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2024, 10:55
  #391 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SA
Age: 63
Posts: 2,310
Received 135 Likes on 98 Posts
Originally Posted by eglnyt
CAA has issued an Interim Report available from the News section at the bottom of its Home Page
How many proof-read this report? "Remember to explain how this text style has been used in the prelims."
sunnySA is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2024, 11:18
  #392 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2023
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Link to the report URL

The CAA / NATS Independent report URL

http://www.caa.co.uk/commercial-indu...ailure-review/
eekeek is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2024, 11:19
  #393 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Age: 59
Posts: 247
Received 23 Likes on 11 Posts
https://www.caa.co.uk/publication/download/21473
alfaman is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2024, 13:25
  #394 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: On top of the world
Age: 73
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I may have missed it but I can see nothing that explains why the Frequentis software was programmed to switch to maintenance mode under these circumstances, when automatic processing of all flight plans ceased, and not just reject the defective plan for manual investigation, whilst continuing to work normally with valid plans. If it had done this, as far as I can tell, this would have almost been a non-event. I wonder if the panel asked this question ?
off watch is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2024, 13:29
  #395 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern England
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by off watch
I may have missed it but I can see nothing that explains why the Frequentis software was programmed to switch to maintenance mode under these circumstances, when automatic processing of all flight plans ceased, and not just reject the defective plan for manual investigation, whilst continuing to work normally with valid plans. If it had done this, as far as I can tell, this would have almost been a non-event. I wonder if the panel asked this question ?
The report says they interviewed Frequentis and asked them questions, some of which were answered at the time and some later. The problem with any Interim report is that you never know for any particular aspect whether that's all you are going to get or a full and reasoned discussion will follow in the main report. Given the lack of technical detail from Frequentis in the interim report I'm hopeful that the latter will be the case but we'll have to wait and see.

For me this interim report raises more additional questions than it answers which is incredibly frustrating but par for the course.
eglnyt is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2024, 13:38
  #396 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: se england
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 0
Received 48 Likes on 21 Posts
Seemingly a very strange list of external participants, almost as though they were chosen for lack of knowledge in the airline business and or IT systems or complex infrastructure projects. While external input is valuable in these situations surely at least two of the four should have some idea what all this is about but just be seperate from CAa , ie they could have found external expertise from the FAA or Eurocontrol
pax britanica is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2024, 13:56
  #397 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern England
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by pax britanica
Seemingly a very strange list of external participants, almost as though they were chosen for lack of knowledge in the airline business and or IT systems or complex infrastructure projects. While external input is valuable in these situations surely at least two of the four should have some idea what all this is about but just be seperate from CAa , ie they could have found external expertise from the FAA or Eurocontrol
The terms of reference are far wider than the technical aspects of the and the expertise of the panel reflects that. Two of the panel have the right background to handle the technical aspects provided they have access to the right expertise. You'd need a much bigger panel if you were going to fill it up with experts in the individual systems.and sometimes a lack of detailed knowledge is a positive as they don't accept the way it's always been done as established good practice.

That said the idea that they were given a technical briefing by the CAA made me chuckle as I'm not sure there is anybody in the CAA who would be recognised as expert in the field. I wonder who briefed them first.
eglnyt is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2024, 14:52
  #398 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Sudbury, Suffolk
Posts: 256
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
There is much of interest that raises further questions, as the report acknowledges. Not the most serious, but VERY odd sounding is 2.23 - 8
"The password login details of the Level 2 NERL engineer could not be readily verified due to the architecture of the system"

What 'system architecture' deliberately inhibits a valid login?

Or maybe: What overall system design prevents access to a system by a nominated engineer?
Maninthebar is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2024, 15:15
  #399 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vance, Belgium
Age: 62
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 3 Posts
To avoid fraudulent admin access, some critical systems allow the login of a user in administrative mode only after another user in a lower role triggers a process which basically sets the stage as "We need an admin"..
Luc Lion is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2024, 15:19
  #400 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Sudbury, Suffolk
Posts: 256
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Luc Lion
To avoid fraudulent admin access, some critical systems allow the login of a user in administrative mode only after another user in a lower role triggers a process which basically sets the stage as "We need an admin"..
Thank you Luc, good insight.

Though the very fact that there was a process to escalate to NERL level 2 engineer SHOULD include such a step if it was necessary.
Maninthebar is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.