Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Flying an Airbus with 140hrs

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Flying an Airbus with 140hrs

Old 7th Feb 2022, 16:07
  #121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Fl410
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by prickly View Post
Yeah, well just saw the Air Arabia A320 story out of Sharjah. F/o, 160 hours on type, 160 hours total time under line training. Check it out on Mentour Pilot website, its unbelievable especially from the training captain.
If a FO needs 160hrs of LIFUS, that is more of a problem then good, motivated FOs with 140hrs total.
sekmeth is online now  
Old 11th Feb 2022, 09:46
  #122 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by tubby linton View Post
A number of reasons including that they do not have the ability to fly the aircraft to its full capability , in particular up to the max crosswind and they have no knowledge of the airfields and airspace they are operating in.
You don't actually believe this do you? How would flying a cranky old MEP around the UK from aerodrome to aerodrome provide experience of operating into LHR, AMS, CDG, or joining a tango route, or...(etc, etc,etc). I appreciate there's a certain amount of experience to be gained by doing actual solo flying (I definitely learned a thing or two in a C152 thinking 'oh Sh!T, not sure what to do now!') but let's not pretend airfield or airspace knowledge/experience is something you miss out on if you do an MPL

(I didn't do an MPL, just advocating that they're not as bad as everyone seems to say they are).
Busdriver01 is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2022, 21:04
  #123 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I did my ab initio training more than 20 years ago. "Frozen ATPL" (CPL IR, ATPL theory and Long Range). Some hours in the US in a Piper PA28 and a Beech F33. Than back to Europe accumulating hours in the Piper PA42 to get used to European weather and familiarize with a few airports. If memory serves me well, I was in the right hand seat with 274 hours total time, when doeing the base check in a narrowbody jet (min 15 landings back than). Some of us even went straight on a widebody (but in short to medium haul operation).

Line training...150 hours standard, again, if memory serves me well.

My first passenger flight as PF was into FRA. We were given vectors to leave a hold on a CAVOC day. The Training Captain said, manual flight could be fun. AP off, A/THR off (standard procedure!), my FD off...

In my opinion, flight training does not end with getting the license or the rating. Captains, like my first training captain, that encourage young pilots to get experience and improve their skills - while making sure to keep things on the safe side - are the key to transfer experience. I do not say, that 1.000 hours single engine C172 are useless, but I think that 150 hours line training with a honest and empowering debriefing might be as valuable.
TooLowFlap is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2022, 21:37
  #124 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: under the sea
Posts: 2,728
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Busdriver01 View Post
You don't actually believe this do you? How would flying a cranky old MEP around the UK from aerodrome to aerodrome provide experience of operating into LHR, AMS, CDG, or joining a tango route, or...(etc, etc,etc). I appreciate there's a certain amount of experience to be gained by doing actual solo flying (I definitely learned a thing or two in a C152 thinking 'oh Sh!T, not sure what to do now!') but let's not pretend airfield or airspace knowledge/experience is something you miss out on if you do an MPL

(I didn't do an MPL, just advocating that they're not as bad as everyone seems to say they are).
I do believe it and that is based upon flying a very basic turboprop into many major airports around Europe at the start of my career plus in later years teaching the A320 to cadets. Flying the turboprop with no flight directors into 30kt crosswind fog into Guernsey at the end of a multisector night or taking the same aircraft into LHR into the rush hour did teach me a few things.Trying to fly it and with your other hand depressurise it took a certain skill, but now I am falling into the old git recounting his memoirs trap.
tubby linton is online now  
Old 15th Feb 2022, 02:43
  #125 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: CYUL
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RichardJones View Post
Indeed. If the PF, is not happy with the A/P, or any system performance, it should be considered as an "incapacitation". Therefore take it out of the loop.
However I sense there is great reluctance nowadays to disable the the automatics and go manual.
The best practice for manual flying, is to hand fly the aircraft at altitude, raw data.. Great practice as it sharpens the scan and increased the use of IVSI, as it should. If you are able to fly at altitude, you are equipped to fly most scenarios with a good degree of accuracy. However it is discouraged now of course, RVSM, passenger comfort, fuel economy, loading up the PNF, etc. When we flew cargo we had ample opportunity to practice. What with, u/s A/P's, and no other restrictions and 3 cockpit crew.. That gave the P/F the confidence to take over manual control when or if necessary.
Years ago in Asia, a line check was being conducted. On the approach, the check pilot pulled the A/P CB. He shouldn't have done perhaps, but he did. The P/F was taken by surprise to the extent, there was a major screw up.
That was when, as a Second Officer, on the B-727, I would offer to hand fly the aircraft, on a long trans-con leg, if the A/P was U/S. Later I would ask the Flight Attendants , how the ride was in the back. If I had hand flown it smoothly enough, they wouldn't notice the A/P was off.
Back to previous discussion, I spent years, as F/O later Captain on DC9-32 aircraft. The only time we had the autopilot on was at cruise altitude. Descents, climbs and approaches were all hand flown, even to 200 ' ceilings. We did have good V-bar F/D for hand flown coupled approaches. Busy terminals, like LGA, ORD, ATL, EWR. No A/T.

Next aircraft, B-767-200, flying out of Barbados, late at night,climbed to 410 to clear a line of weather. I was PF, when suddenly one engine rolled back, and started to surge. First thing I did was disconnect A/T A/P, pitch down 2 degree below horizon, as Engine Out page came up. 217 knots. No way I would slow back that far. Hand flew , descending around cells until we got low enough that surging engine recovered. EGT hadn't climbed so no shut down required.
So when bad things happen, you revert back to your previous aircraft. In my case the DC-9; I was more comfortable hand flying, while the Captain did the QRH drill...

Last edited by Retired DC9 driver; 15th Feb 2022 at 03:31.
Retired DC9 driver is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2022, 06:09
  #126 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Age: 55
Posts: 761
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Retired DC9 driver View Post
That was when, as a Second Officer, on the B-727, I would offer to hand fly the aircraft, on a long trans-con leg, if the A/P was U/S. Later I would ask the Flight Attendants , how the ride was in the back. If I had hand flown it smoothly enough, they wouldn't notice the A/P was off.
Back to previous discussion, I spent years, as F/O later Captain on DC9-32 aircraft. The only time we had the autopilot on was at cruise altitude. Descents, climbs and approaches were all hand flown, even to 200 ' ceilings. We did have good V-bar F/D for hand flown coupled approaches. Busy terminals, like LGA, ORD, ATL, EWR. No A/T.

Next aircraft, B-767-200, flying out of Barbados, late at night,climbed to 410 to clear a line of weather. I was PF, when suddenly one engine rolled back, and started to surge. First thing I did was disconnect A/T A/P, pitch down 2 degree below horizon, as Engine Out page came up. 217 knots. No way I would slow back that far. Hand flew , descending around cells until we got low enough that surging engine recovered. EGT hadn't climbed so no shut down required.
So when bad things happen, you revert back to your previous aircraft. In my case the DC-9; I was more comfortable hand flying, while the Captain did the QRH drill...
I agree with selecting the AT OFF, because you have an engine issue. You would have helped the captain a lot more if you would have kept the AP on, and flown in HDG/FLC or whatever team B uses. Had a flameout at FL430 in the descend, my colleague immediately disconnected everything. I looked at the situation, looked like a flameout without damage, we were descending on an RNAV arrival. I just re-engaged the AP, because there was no need to add extra workload at that point. Currently flying the A320, and land without AP/FD/AT 90% of the time. When the $#!t hits the fan, keep the automation on, as long as the problem is not related to that part of the automation.
hans brinker is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2022, 06:25
  #127 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by TooLowFlap View Post
I did my ab initio training more than 20 years ago. "Frozen ATPL" (CPL IR, ATPL theory and Long Range). Some hours in the US in a Piper PA28 and a Beech F33. Than back to Europe accumulating hours in the Piper PA42 to get used to European weather and familiarize with a few airports. If memory serves me well, I was in the right hand seat with 274 hours total time, when doeing the base check in a narrowbody jet (min 15 landings back than). Some of us even went straight on a widebody (but in short to medium haul operation).

Line training...150 hours standard, again, if memory serves me well.

My first passenger flight as PF was into FRA. We were given vectors to leave a hold on a CAVOC day. The Training Captain said, manual flight could be fun. AP off, A/THR off (standard procedure!), my FD off...

In my opinion, flight training does not end with getting the license or the rating. Captains, like my first training captain, that encourage young pilots to get experience and improve their skills - while making sure to keep things on the safe side - are the key to transfer experience. I do not say, that 1.000 hours single engine C172 are useless, but I think that 150 hours line training with a honest and empowering debriefing might be as valuable.
Maybe there's something to be said for 150 hrs of line training. Here, the standard is 25 or 15 hours. You'll be fired long before getting to 150 hours.
Check Airman is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2022, 07:15
  #128 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: France
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
Maybe there's something to be said for 150 hrs of line training. Here, the standard is 25 or 15 hours. You'll be fired long before getting to 150 hours.
It has to be adapted to previous experience etc. Someone coming from previous airline experience with few thousands hours even if not on jet aircraft will not need the same training as an out of flight school pilot or even a few hundred hours as instructor
Scagrams is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2022, 12:51
  #129 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: CYUL
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by hans brinker View Post
I agree with selecting the AT OFF, because you have an engine issue. You would have helped the captain a lot more if you would have kept the AP on, and flown in HDG/FLC or whatever team B uses. Had a flameout at FL430 in the descend, my colleague immediately disconnected everything. I looked at the situation, looked like a flameout without damage, we were descending on an RNAV arrival. I just re-engaged the AP, because there was no need to add extra workload at that point. Currently flying the A320, and land without AP/FD/AT 90% of the time. When the $#!t hits the fan, keep the automation on, as long as the problem is not related to that part of the automation.
Well I was maneuvering around some nasty looking cells, as we descended, so I figured it was easier to hand fly, keep up some speed for turbulence. The bad engine was surging, so I wanted my feet on the rudders with the thrust changes; never dialed in any rudder trim. We were well out over the water, in the "Bermuda Triangle" so no crossing restrictions to meet.

I would later fly the 319/320/321 for quite a few years as Captain. Often fly it with AP/FD off, but the A/T is pretty useful ! Many approaches I did , required "A/P off, F/Ds off, Speed Push", then hand fly. Such as Expressway Visual, LGA or Quiet Bridge into LAX from the North. Later a slam-dunk..

Last edited by Retired DC9 driver; 15th Feb 2022 at 13:07. Reason: added text
Retired DC9 driver is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2022, 19:45
  #130 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Retired DC9 driver View Post
I would later fly the 319/320/321 for quite a few years as Captain. Often fly it with AP/FD off, but the A/T is pretty useful ! Many approaches I did , required "A/P off, F/Ds off, Speed Push", then hand fly.
Some airlines do not allow to fly with the A/THR in Speed-mode while the A/P is not engaged. Lufthansa Passage / Cargo went this way. The training department had the opinion, that the use of A/T(HR) while handflying has a negative effect on (scanning-) skills. I tend to agree on that one.

We have a thread on that topic in tech log. However, I am not allowed to post links yet.

TooLowFlap is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2022, 06:28
  #131 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by TooLowFlap View Post
Some airlines do not allow to fly with the A/THR in Speed-mode while the A/P is not engaged. Lufthansa Passage / Cargo went this way. The training department had the opinion, that the use of A/T(HR) while handflying has a negative effect on (scanning-) skills. I tend to agree on that one.

We have a thread on that topic in tech log. However, I am not allowed to post links yet.
Wow, that's odd. The scanning skills are required all the time regardless of the A/THR status and it's flying with full automation that these skills will deteriorate the fastest IMHO. I believe flying with FDs off and A/THR off is very easy and safe; As on Airbus it will be always in speed mode whatever you do. That's why we switch off the FDs during a RA manoeuvre. When I first started flying with FDs OFF, I always flew with A/THR ON to first make myself at ease with the pitch and tracking the Loc and glide during approach. Then after when I was comfortable I started disconnecting the A/THR. In my opinion the least safe think to do as a new pilot on type is to fly FDs ON and A/THR OFF during climb and descent as you have to anticipate what the A/THR would be doing if it was engaged.

Last edited by pineteam; 16th Feb 2022 at 06:39. Reason: Typo
pineteam is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2022, 07:55
  #132 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Not commuting home
Age: 44
Posts: 4,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Put it this way: Unlike on conventional types with pronounced pitch-power couple, very few airlines insist to have the A/thr OFF during manual flight for FBW Airbii.


FlightDetent is online now  
Old 16th Feb 2022, 08:19
  #133 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I did not pay attention but I’m assuming TooLowFlap was talking about Boeing Most likely. I know one airline flying older 737 by SOP if you turn off AP you must turn off the Auto-throttle.
pineteam is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2022, 10:10
  #134 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 3,203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
Put it this way: Unlike on conventional types with pronounced pitch-power couple, very few airlines insist to have the A/thr OFF during manual flight for FBW Airbii.
That's because Airbus is flight path stable so the computer resists any pitch that is not coming from the stick. So whether thrust couple or speed increase/decrease the aircraft maintains 1g path. However direct law that's not the case because it degrades to conventional speed stable. That's why in direct law manual thrust is recommended.
vilas is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2022, 12:13
  #135 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Actually, this rule (not to use speed mode with the autopilot off) was introduced in the OM-A way back in the 1990s, if memory serves me well. As the OM-A was binding for all operations, it became applicable for Airbus / Boeing / MD fleets (A306 / A310, A319-321, A330 / A340 AND B733-735, B742, B744, MD11).



Back to topic: I recently watched a YouTube-video. An ab initio pilot of an unknown airline had to do his ďbase checkĒ (flying touch & go in the actual aircraft after completing the Type Rating). They flew the pattern with A/THRÖ

I am afraid that these pilots use manual thrust for the first time, when they have problems with the airspeed indicator (for example), which might not be the best time to train speed control / pitch & power and so on.
TooLowFlap is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2022, 12:33
  #136 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Not commuting home
Age: 44
Posts: 4,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Historically DLH never seemed to have problems with cadet-grown pilots, guess they must be doing something right. Although the F/Os don't taxi, IIRC.

(one God forsaken soul does not alter that)

​​​​​

Last edited by FlightDetent; 16th Feb 2022 at 17:33.
FlightDetent is online now  
Old 16th Feb 2022, 17:51
  #137 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by TooLowFlap View Post

I am afraid that these pilots use manual thrust for the first time, when they have problems with the airspeed indicator (for example), which might not be the best time to train speed control / pitch & power and so on.
The first time I flew the A320 without AT, it was quite a ride. With a bit of repetition, it becomes a lot easier though, and Iíd say is my normal landing configuration.
Check Airman is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2022, 18:03
  #138 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
The first time I flew the A320 without AT, it was quite a ride. With a bit of repetition, it becomes a lot easier though, and Iíd say is my normal landing configuration.
Agreed 100%. Same for me.
pineteam is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2022, 18:12
  #139 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Scagrams View Post
It has to be adapted to previous experience etc. Someone coming from previous airline experience with few thousands hours even if not on jet aircraft will not need the same training as an out of flight school pilot or even a few hundred hours as instructor
I donít disagree with you, but whether youíve flown the same type for a different airline, or just came from pistons, you get 25 hrs.

(Iím told that some regionals have recently increased to ~40 hrs of line training. Iíd assume this has to do with the decreased experience of new first officers. Itís quite a challenge for my friends who are captains)
Check Airman is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2022, 21:03
  #140 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: On the ground
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
The first time I flew the A320 without AT, it was quite a ride. With a bit of repetition, it becomes a lot easier though, and Iíd say is my normal landing configuration.
The first time i flew the A320 (raw data) with AT on was quite a ride. Manual flight - manual thrust was the norm, both in training and on the line in the airline where i transitioned from Boeing to Airbus. That said, nowadays manual thrust is all but forbidden, as is AP/FD off for TCAS as the automatic TCAS mode does it better anyway.
OSDriver is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.