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Flying an Airbus with 140hrs

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Flying an Airbus with 140hrs

Old 22nd Jan 2022, 14:42
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Originally Posted by Chiefttp
ď If you think flying a raw data, A/T off departure in a busy airspace with low level offs, tight turns, stepped climbs and speed restrictions somehow makes you a superior pilot, youíre wrong. It makes you a moron.Ē

Actually it does make you a superior pilot, Itís essentially what we did every day in military pilot training, Youíd be surprised at how well you could do it too if you take your time, study the departure/ arrival and have done it dozens of times before. Like others have said, the correct level of automation, at the proper phase of flight is the best course.
No it doesnít. We are talking about the airline world, not the military. Good CRM makes a good airline pilot, and if you think saying things like ďin the military we did thisĒ creates a positive crew environment, youíre mistaken. Quite frankly, if Iím sitting next to you in the flight deck of a passenger aircraft, I couldnít give two hoots what you did in the military, as much as you couldnít give two hoots about how many birdies I got on the golf course the day before. Oh, and the girls in the back arenít interested either.


Originally Posted by TRENT210
Flying ability aside whatís the general consensus on what these (usually) young MPL / Integrated FOís are like to fly with as far as conversation is concerned?

A ex mil, legacy captain once told me that, in the main, their flying ability was usually very good however trying to make conversation at FL390 became a massive chore.

He said trying to chat with a 20 year kid whoís gone straight from college to a sausage factory school was a massive effort and made the cruise extremely boring. He was glad when he got an ex mil or an older FO with either previous flying experience or previous work experience to have a chat to.

Obviously we are paid to fly not to socialise but he had an interesting opinion.
This seems to be the issue. People assume that anybody who did an MPL or integrated course is fresh out of nappies. I was the youngest on my integrated course at 24. The oldest was 35. All of us had life experience, all of us could hold a conversation. But where in the ops manual does it say itís the FOís job to entertain the Captain? How do you know that some FOís just arenít interested in Maverick bleating on about his military days, or how many cars he has or his pension or that heís lost money because the company share price has gone down? I fly with plenty of captains who canít hold a conversation either, or who I simply have nothing in common with. And Iím certainly not there to massage somebodyís ego.

Iím not denying that some people are boring, introverted or have no life experience. But that applies to both seats, and goes back to the problem with people making first impressions based on how their colleague completed their training.
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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 15:27
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Vokes55

Chip meet shoulder. Seriously, all I’m saying is, if you hand fly a complicated SID, on a regular basis, how can that not make you a better pilot as far as flying skill and confidence? I’m not saying to do it, and I agree with you in busy airspace it’s safer to let the autopilot fly it, but having the ability and the confidence to hand fly such a departure is an asset that most people would want their pilots to possess. I don’t know where your tangent about military trained pilots came from, but it sounds like you have an issue with some of them…sorry you feel that way. The military trains zero time pil9ts and one year later with a whopping 200 hrs total time, some of them are flying F-35’s. The reason they can do this is very rigorous selection, training, and lots of hand flying. CRM comes into play later. The original question posed on this thread was whether a pilot with 140 hrs can fly an Airbus, and the answer is yes, but only if they continue to train regularly, and at a higher rate than a 5000 hr pilot. If I were in management I’d require a 140 hr pilot to have one 2 hour sim per month for his. First 2 years. Practice V-1 cuts, engine out procedures, etc etc…to put a 140 hr pilot in an Airbus and let them engage the autopilot won’t allow them to build experience or confidence, despite having really, really, exceptional CRM skills….
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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 16:05
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(cross-posted to with #82, reply to Vokes55 )

Easy on the wiser colleagues, man. Your passionate engagement may come across as being p(r)icky with the argument in some jurisdictions. It's natural for each of us to defend the way we have personally been trained, stay mindful it goes both ways.

Those skilled enough to be
flying a raw data, A/T off departure in a busy airspace with low level offs, tight turns, stepped climbs and speed restrictions
are superior pilots to those who cannot.

Nobody ever said it was a superior decision to self-train yourself for it in London, NYC or Beijing airspace, nor to be showing it off over there. On the contrary.

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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 16:39
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The current requirement to have 1500 hours is overboard. I and many of my peers started flying 4 engine piston aircraft with very little time. I had 500 hours, some of which was P51 (that was Parker 51). We all flew with patient Captains that enco8uraged us. Many would only let us use the autopilot at cruise altitude. None of us
had any problems and I feel 750 or 1000 hours would be plenty. Especially with the new simulators and airline training programs used today.

I agree with those that say hand fling to and from altitude is something that should be encouraged.
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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 17:03
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N1EPR,
750-1000 hrs worked fine until the Colgan Buffalo accident in 2009…then the knee jerk government reaction required 1500 hrs and an ATP to get a job at a Regional.
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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 17:40
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent
(cross-posted to with #82, reply to Vokes55 )
Those skilled enough to be are superior pilots to those who cannot.
.
Sorry but once again, who are you to say that somebody who did an MPL or integrated course canít fly a complicated SID raw data? These baseless assumptions and tarring of nearly a whole generation of pilots is the bit I have an issue with.

Iím more than capable of hand flying an eastbound SID off 25 at Luton using raw data. Do I think itís appropriate? No. Can I be bothered when itís day 6 of earlies and Iíve had 4 hours of sleep? No. Do the people that pay my wages care that I didnít hand fly that SID? No. Do the passengers that keep me in a job care? No. Does it have anything to do with whether I did an MPL course, an integrated course or 4000 hours crop spraying in Australia? No.


Originally Posted by Chiefttp
, but having the ability and the confidence to hand fly such a departure is an asset that most people would want their pilots to possess.
Most companies would want a pilot who knows when it is and isnít appropriate to hand fly such a departure. And for most companies, the answer of when itís appropriate would be ďin the simĒ and the answer of when itís not would be ďany other timeĒ. As I said before, the appropriate use of automation is a matter of company policy for most airlines and is nothing to do with how somebody completed their initial training. The majority of us just want to have a good day out, keep a roof over our heads and food on the table and get our kicks elsewhere.

I have no problem with people with a military background, as long as you can leave your ego at the door and understand that it doesnít say USAF on the side of your aircraft any more. Your war stories are as interesting (and relevant) to me as my golf stories are to you.
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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 17:54
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Sorry but once again, who are you to say that somebody who did an MPL or integrated course can’t fly a complicated SID raw data?
Oh dear, the old self-improver vs integrated arguments of olde years. I thought we left that behind twenty years ago.

I wouldn't conflate Integrated with MPL though, the latter being more an efficient cost-cutting exercise for the airlines. Without glass and automation the MPL would never exist.
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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 18:42
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Vokess55,

You wrote;
The majority of us just want to have a good day out, keep a roof over our heads and food on the table and get our kicks elsewhere.”

I now see where your coming from…some people view Flying as a job, nothing more, Fly the Jet, get paid, go home….get your kicks elsewhere.
Others view the job as a passion, for some it’s a lifelong love of aviation, aircraft and everything associated with flying. I love hearing stories from military guys who’ve seen amazing things flying amazing aircraft..I also love hearing stories from pilots who took the general aviation path to the airlines like my Son, who is currently flying 777’s. Many of my friends own their own private aircraft, and some have built their own aircraft. Great pilots with interesting backgrounds and great stories.
To me and many others this profession is not, engage the autopilot, get vectors to a coupled ILS and don’t get in trouble or visit the Chief pilot, it’s something much more. it’s the difference between a Pilot, and an Aviator……to each his own, enjoy the links..

Last edited by Chiefttp; 23rd Jan 2022 at 00:42.
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Old 22nd Jan 2022, 22:07
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Many opinions here are rather polarised. I don't think that it's a simple choice between "fly manually and on raw data at all times, no matter the conditions and the complexity of the airspace you're in" or "don't dare to ever disconnect the AT and FDs and keep the AP engaged anytime above 200 feet". My opinion is that you'll be much better off using some judgement as to when hand flying for exercise is appropriate and when it isn't. Probably every airline flies to some places where you can fly manually anytime below RVSM airspace, do raw data or visual approaches etc. Think regional airports which are usually not too busy, have no strict noise abatement routings and a relatively straightforward STAR/SID. Somewhere like that is a brilliant place to practise flying the aircraft (although, sadly, some colleagues still won't take the opportunity). However, a busy major airport isn't really the ideal place for it. It's not only about you as PF, it's also about making sure that your PM has an acceptable workload which allows him/her to actually monitor and provide the much-needed safety benefit of a second pair of eyes. So, instead of keeping the PM busy doing selections which you as PF could instead do yourself with the AP engaged, allow him/her to focus on the safety-critical part of their role - monitoring the flight path and calling out any deviations, ATC, checklists. Ultimately, you're there to take the aircraft from A to B in a safe and efficient way - and sometimes automation can be greatly beneficial to this. The acknowledgement of that has nothing to do with passion for flying or lack thereof, as mentioned above.
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Old 23rd Jan 2022, 03:36
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Vokes, you nailed the problem yourself: ę Company policy Ľ. The same ones who blatantly ignore the manufacturer recommendations.. And if you think you or anyone else regardless they are MPL, or fighter pilots or 20 000 hours airline pilots that they can fly accurately raw data in challenging SID/STAR by practicing only in the sim; you will be surprised..By the way flying in the sim raw data is easier than the real aircraft. At least on A320 itís definitely the case.
And as a passenger, I would not mind at all if on a nice day the pilots in front are flying raw data. On the contrary, I will feel more safe and I least know they care about their skills and they are actually enjoying the ride. Cause as a pilot, letís be honest here, itís much more fun than just following FD bars. And fun does not make you unprofessional. I really love flying; I would never take the risks to lose that amazing opportunity I have today to fly these planes by doing reckless flying. I actually feel sorry for the pilots who are upset to go to work. Iím excited to go flying every time. Yes some parts of the job are annoying but once those doors are closed, the excitement is there all the time. Itís actually hard for me to call it ďworkĒ or ďjobĒ.
I donít want to be a passenger at the back stressing out if the guys are going to rotate before the end of the runway or crashing the plane into the ground cause the FD bars disappeared or the auto thrust failed. Oh and nothing makes me more cringe than pilots who engage AP just after airborne or disconnect the AP at minima in good weather.

By reading you, you seem to be a smart guy, I wish one day you can have a chance to work in an outfit where the policies are written by aviators. Maybe you will see things differently.
That would be my last post on this one. Enough off topic from my side. Happy flying everyone.
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Old 23rd Jan 2022, 04:20
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Originally Posted by Vokes55
Sorry but once again, who are you to say that somebody who did an MPL or integrated course canít fly a complicated SID raw data? These baseless assumptions and tarring of nearly a whole generation of pilots is the bit I have an issue with.

Iím more than capable of hand flying an eastbound SID off 25 at Luton using raw data. Do I think itís appropriate? No. Can I be bothered when itís day 6 of earlies and Iíve had 4 hours of sleep? No. Do the people that pay my wages care that I didnít hand fly that SID? No. Do the passengers that keep me in a job care? No. Does it have anything to do with whether I did an MPL course, an integrated course or 4000 hours crop spraying in Australia? No.




Most companies would want a pilot who knows when it is and isnít appropriate to hand fly such a departure. And for most companies, the answer of when itís appropriate would be ďin the simĒ and the answer of when itís not would be ďany other timeĒ. As I said before, the appropriate use of automation is a matter of company policy for most airlines and is nothing to do with how somebody completed their initial training. The majority of us just want to have a good day out, keep a roof over our heads and food on the table and get our kicks elsewhere.

I have no problem with people with a military background, as long as you can leave your ego at the door and understand that it doesnít say USAF on the side of your aircraft any more. Your war stories are as interesting (and relevant) to me as my golf stories are to you.
I agree with the realism in your argument. Being a pilot is like any another profession. Only Passion alone doesn't necessarily make one better. There are many who play sport very passionately and yet remain mediocre at best. Commercial flying is a business to make money by transporting people safely. When it stops doing that even the best pilot goes home. These are not exactly training flights and to have an incident/accident practicing something fancy because one's passion is simply not acceptable. Most flights should use automation that's what it's designed for and gives consistent results. Hand flying should be used to keep the capability to do so when required. That doesn't require every departure or every arrival to be manually flown. This is not a personal toy and airline must have policies in this regard.
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Old 23rd Jan 2022, 07:04
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Pineteam, you really need to take heed - like it or not, the incident rate when pilots try and fly raw data is very much increased - and even hand flying might well be inappropriate in busy or complicated departures and arrivals. Great that you get kicks from flying still, but your workplace with several hundred paying customers is not the place to indulge your kicks. Get an aviation related hobby to do that - aero's, gliding, etc - they almost always make a good pair of hands, who find the transition to transport jets very natural.
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Old 23rd Jan 2022, 08:03
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Originally Posted by Chiefttp
Vokess55,

You wrote;
ďThe majority of us just want to have a good day out, keep a roof over our heads and food on the table and get our kicks elsewhere.Ē

I now see where your coming fromÖsome people view Flying as a job, nothing more, Fly the Jet, get paid, go homeÖ.get your kicks elsewhere.
Others view the job as a passion, for some itís a lifelong love of aviation, aircraft and everything associated with flying. I love hearing stories from military guys whoíve seen amazing things flying amazing aircraft..I also love hearing stories from pilots who took the general aviation path to the airlines like my Son, who is currently flying 777ís. Many of my friends own their own private aircraft, and some have built their own aircraft. Great pilots with interesting backgrounds and great stories.
To me and many others this profession is not, engage the autopilot, get vectors to a coupled ILS and donít get in trouble or visit the Chief pilot, itís something much more. itís the difference between a Pilot, and an AviatorÖÖto each his own, enjoy the links..
I donít disagree with what you say, except that most pilots will find themselves somewhere in the middle. I love my job, but I also want to be able to do it for another 30 years. I love the lifestyle (the last two years aside) it allows me to lead. But I also love to keep my stress levels low enough to allow me to reach retirement alive. Times have changed. Radar almost everywhere, FDM, FTLs stretched to their limits, everyone having a camera. Every mistake is going to be picked up and every action scrutinised. If I level bust in London airspace on a departure trying to intercept a VOR radial, the first question Iím going to be asked is why werenít I using the AFDS system? The answer of ďwell I just love being an aviatorĒ simply isnít going to cut it. In my airline it would probably land me in the simulator with a black mark next to my name, possibly for the rest of my career. In others, it would almost certainly be a week to pack your belongings and get out of the country.

Whether or not you agree with the way people are trained, the path they take, the magenta line etc is something youíd need to ask the airlines, not the new pilots simply taking the path that will open the most doors to them. All Iíd say is look at the connoisseurs of low hour cadet hiring - Ryanair, Wizzair and easyJet - and count the number of hull losses theyíve had over the past 20 years.
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Old 23rd Jan 2022, 10:28
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They fly many short sectors, many to only basic equipped fields and their pilots get a lot of stick time and experience fast. While they are strictly ops regulated wouldn't this be more one of the old world models?
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Old 23rd Jan 2022, 10:43
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I think we can take it as read, flying skills have gone out the window now. The youngsters with low hours can operate the automatics far better and quicker than I ever could. You can take a 16 year old, or younger out of an amusement parlor and they could be taught to operate the automatics of an a/c far quicker than us dinosaurs. A chief pilot of a national carrier told me 20 years ago, "flying skills are well down the list of priorities for us as far as selection goes". I knew we were in trouble then.
However as for handling an a/c in manual, that is a different story.
Take crosswind landings for eg., who nowadays can pull off a landing at max xwind, touching down, on the centre line, when the heading, track of the a/c and R/W heading are the same. Not very many these days I suspect.. If we are unable we don't have full control of the A/C. Or do we? Surely that is what we all desire and strive for, or is it just throwing the a/c at the runway the aim?
This is the reality guys, get used to it. You can teach automatics in a class room/simulator. Flying skills, don't come that easy.

Last edited by RichardJones; 24th Jan 2022 at 08:57.
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Old 23rd Jan 2022, 10:55
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So could we all agree that it is possible to train a 140 hour Pilot to fly an Airbus safely? In my perfect world, I’d like to see these low hour pilots receive extra training, at least for their first 2 years, in the form of a monthly simulator session to let them practice V-1 cuts, raw data approaches, and other skills in an non retribution environment. These sim sessions would be pure training and practice. This would allow them to gain experience and confidence while not exposing paying passengers to possible incidents. My airline offers such a program to pilots who request it, regardless of rank or experience. You can request a sim session every 6 months for pilot proficiency. Get in the simulator and basically practice anything you’d like for a few hours.
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Old 23rd Jan 2022, 11:28
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I believe the blue and yellow company allow their pilots free use of their fixed base training devices which I'm told are exactly like the full motion sim but without the motion.
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Old 23rd Jan 2022, 11:38
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Originally Posted by Chiefttp
In my perfect world, Iíd like to see these low hour pilots receive extra training, at least for their first 2 years, in the form of a monthly simulator session to let them practice V-1 cuts, raw data approaches, and other skills... ...allow them to gain experience and confidence while not exposing paying passengers to possible incidents.
You realise that they're not just putting a 140 hour pilot in an Airbus, right? They get a full type rating - in fact these guys will do a lot more SIM sessions than the rest of us and should therefore be more proficient than we were going from single pilot to multi pilot.
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Old 23rd Jan 2022, 11:56
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Rudestuff,
Generally I’m familiar with the concept of these programs. Can anyone explain the process and how many hours from start to finish (type rating) until a candidate flies in the right seat of an airliner.
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Old 23rd Jan 2022, 12:16
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Originally Posted by Chiefttp
Rudestuff,
Generally Iím familiar with the concept of these programs. Can anyone explain the process and how many hours from start to finish (type rating) until a candidate flies in the right seat of an airliner.
A type rating course usually features no less than nine four-hour sessions in the FFS. However, the exact number can vary depending on a few things. First, there are usually some fixed-base sessions which are considered part of the theoretical training and are done either in a classroom FBS, in a touch-screen FTD or in the FFS cockpit with the motion disabled, depending on what sort of equipment is available in the training centre. Second, company conversion training may be integrated into the training programme or may come as a couple of standalone sessions after the type rating (usually one or two training sessions and one for the OPC). Low visibility training usually also comes as a standalone session. So, you won't be too far off if you assume that a cadet FO coming in for their first flight in the real aircraft has had at least 40 hours in the FFS with all the bells and whistles plus some hours in a lower-level training device before that.

As for being able to book extra sim sessions at the company's expense to maintain proficiency in non-normal situations - I am all in for that. Sadly, not many airlines out there have the resources to afford that and the willingness to spend the money this way even if they have it. Most tend to go with the minimum legally required number of training hours.
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