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Flying an Airbus with 140hrs

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Flying an Airbus with 140hrs

Old 19th Jan 2022, 03:12
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Flying an Airbus with 140hrs

Hi,
Not critical of the crew's actions here (I haven't even read the report), but something in the summary stood out

Commander’s Flying Experience: 4,412 hours (of which 4,272 were on type)
I thought you needed to have ~200-250 hrs to get a CPL. Have things been relaxed to the extent that pilots with 140 hrs are able to get into an Airbus? At 140 hrs, I hadn't quite figured out crosswind landings yet. (Some would argue that I still haven't but that's for another day )
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 03:56
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Well, doing an MPL course cadets can begin flying Airbus or similar aircraft with less than 100 hours experience in real aircraft. They will have substantial simulator experience though and are trained on the SOPs from the sponsoring airline from day one. In fact the line training on their first commercial type is part of their initial license training.

I have flown with quite a few of those MPL cadets and generally they were quite good.
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 05:12
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I would guess that there is an error in the hours summary. My own airline takes pride in the fact that I have 7,000 hours total, but 21,000 on type.
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 06:14
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It's entirely plausible. Plenty of cadet pilots in Europe get their first jet job in Europe with less than 200 hours.
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 06:44
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I don't see how you get there with 140 hours even with sim

70 Hours dual total for PPL, CPL and MEIR?

200 is believable, I know plenty of Chinese cadets flying everything from A320s to 777s and A350s who only have 200 hours not on type.
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 07:18
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That'll be 140 hours SEP/MEP plus SIM hours. There will be a regulatory minimum number of 'real' flight hours, but the focus of the training will be in two crew operations, and the licence limited as such.
​​​​​​
Someone trained an licenced this way will not be allowed to fly a Cessna (or anything) single pilot, unless/until they also meet the CPL requirements and take the CPL flight test.
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 07:19
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Really not a good idea.
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 07:21
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Add Sim time onto that. They are not powering down the runway at Luton with 140hrs, just yet.

Really not a good idea.
Track record is fairly good. Probably one of the better programs around. I’m no fan of these programs however it’s miles better compared to the one my employer runs.
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 08:33
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Originally Posted by olster View Post
Really not a good idea.
Why? They've passed a type rating test to the authorities' satisfaction. They're flying multi-crew, they've had their safety pilot released and it's the only type they know so there's no bad/old habits to revert to.
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 08:58
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I flew with cadets with around 300 hours total time in the A330, most did very well, they could fly the magenta line, program the box and recite the FCOM line and verse with very limited understanding of it's meaning. If it was not on ECAM or in the QRH, we are screwed. So technology has replaced experience, it works up to a point.

I recall at 300 hours I was only just allowed to take the club's Cherokee 6 for a burn.
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 09:25
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Why? If you can barely solo a Cessna 150 without trepidation I fail to see how sitting in the rhs of a Boeing or Airbus is a good idea. Call me a bluff old traditionalist if you will but I prefer a pilot even of the airline variety to have a modicum of flying skill or experience. Reading part B and quoting sops is not really a substitute. It’s probably just me...
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 09:48
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Easyjet MPL has been around since 2009 to 2012, so it stands that early MPLs could easily have made command by now.

The Easyjet MPL course has only has about 70 to 85 hours of real flying content.
So if you ignore sim time you could even have some one with only 70 hours of actual flight time flying as a First Officer at Easyjet.
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 10:46
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Originally Posted by olster View Post
Why? If you can barely solo a Cessna 150 without trepidation I fail to see how sitting in the rhs of a Boeing or Airbus is a good idea. Call me a bluff old traditionalist if you will but I prefer a pilot even of the airline variety to have a modicum of flying skill or experience. Reading part B and quoting sops is not really a substitute. It’s probably just me...
No Olster it’s not just you, I’m with you all the way. It seems to be the way the industry is going. It’s all fine until something goes wrong, then the lack of stick and rudder experience will show it’s ugly head.
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 11:00
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I flew with an MPL F/O who had 160 hours total time and the bus was his first twin. They're fine as long as everything stays on the rails and nothing happens that they haven't been trained for in the sim.

Once things go outside the box, there is no previous experience to fall back on and they are stuffed.
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 11:01
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Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
Hi,
Not critical of the crew's actions here (I haven't even read the report), but something in the summary stood out



I thought you needed to have ~200-250 hrs to get a CPL. Have things been relaxed to the extent that pilots with 140 hrs are able to get into an Airbus? At 140 hrs, I hadn't quite figured out crosswind landings yet. (Some would argue that I still haven't but that's for another day )
you are reading avherald, scroll down for the "Arabia A320 at Sharjah on Sep 18th 2018, intersection line up departed in wrong direction" that was last updated on Wed Jan 12th 2022 and observe the co-pilots hours in that incident. "The GCAA reported the first officer under training (34, MPL, 159 hours total, 159 hours on type) occupying the right hand seat was pilot flying"
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 11:22
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The flying club where I got my PPL had restrictions on pilots with less than 200 hours total time. They couldn't fly the Mooney as it was a complex single with retractable gear.

Back then, with a CPL and 200 hours you were instructing or doing single engine charter if you were lucky. 1000 hours and an instrument rating got you into a Baron. With 2000 hours, the airlines would look at you.

The system wasn't perfect but generally the silly mistakes were made and learned from at piston engine level before you got onto the serious stuff.
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 12:07
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Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
The flying club where I got my PPL had restrictions on pilots with less than 200 hours total time. They couldn't fly the Mooney as it was a complex single with retractable gear.

Back then, with a CPL and 200 hours you were instructing or doing single engine charter if you were lucky. 1000 hours and an instrument rating got you into a Baron. With 2000 hours, the airlines would look at you.

The system wasn't perfect but generally the silly mistakes were made and learned from at piston engine level before you got onto the serious stuff.
Looking back I reckon I was at my most dangerous as a 100 hour pilot. I really thought I knew what I was doing. By the time I got my CPL IR and 1500 hours I developed some humility.
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 12:24
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Easyjet MPL has been around since 2009 to 2012, so it stands that early MPLs could easily have made command by now.
So we could now have two pilots on the fight deck with no real world experience?
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 12:27
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Originally Posted by 601 View Post
So we could now have two pilots on the fight deck with no real world experience?
well apart from 10years flying for easyjet. What would you call “real world”?
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Old 19th Jan 2022, 12:32
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I can’t think of one time in my 6000 hours flying four different Boeing types that I thought “phew, thank god I did those touch and go’s in the C-172 or I’d really have been in the sh*t”.

Seriously, MPL schemes have been around for almost 15 years. Cadet schemes with 170-200 hour kids straight out of flight school even longer. Flying is safer than it ever has been. Some people need to get over the fact that things have changed from the days of their heroic flight instruction or “single engine charter” hour building, and they’re not going back any time soon.
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