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West Atlantic ATP runway excursion in Birmingham

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West Atlantic ATP runway excursion in Birmingham

Old 20th Jun 2020, 14:03
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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A320LGW, just for your info, it was filmed outside airport property. I've had plenty of people filming me at work over the years. Never bothered me.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 19:02
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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I know of a few captains who feel it should be prohibited to film aircraft with such intent as can be found in numerous locations on the British Isles
Would you care to explain why?

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Old 20th Jun 2020, 19:38
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A320LGW View Post
to film aircraft with such intent
With what intent ?
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 19:39
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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I know of a few captains who feel it should be prohibited to film aircraft with such intent as can be found in numerous locations on the British Isles

"do we go and film them in their places of work ...!!???"
That does seem a little over the top. They're not really in your workplace - the jumpseat might qualify, but spotters corner really does not.

As an ex-controller, I was well used to having people listening to 'my' frequency. They were not the tower, and only had a very limited view of what was going on. Sometimes they could guess right, sometimes they got it completely wrong - but I really can't see the problem if somebody really wants to sit on the boundary fence and video or listen to what's going on on airport. Personally, I have a life, and plenty of other things to do with spare time. If somebody sitting in spotters corner wanted to criticise me, I have the confidence to know that (almost every time) I could justify what I did or didn't do. Does that not apply to those captains of your acquaintance, A320LGW?

On the one occasion where I recall royally screwing up, and having an aircraft pirouetting on the runway through some 450°, I think it was - OK, so this was pre-internet days and even if caught by some spotter, news didn't travel far or fast, but I did manage to get a letter sent to the local newspaper by a passenger questioning what was going on - I put my hand up and said "sorry, I could have done better" during the meeting with the boss...without tea...or biscuits. And that was that.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 20:50
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Retired now but I always preferred wing down as opposed to crab in a brisk crosswind. Manufacturer was flexible up to around 25-30 kts but beyond that they preferred a crab technique. I appreciate the perception that going against the manufacturers recommended method of operating is increasingly difficult in this litigious world we live in.

Like others I don't like the expression 'kicking the rudder' when applied to the operation of medium to large transport aircraft. It may be a question of semantics but it could lead to misconceptions as was evidenced by the Airbus that lost its fin and rudder in NY just after 9/11.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 21:23
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beamer View Post
..... Like others I don't like the expression 'kicking the rudder' when applied to the operation of medium to large transport aircraft (or any aircraft at all for that matter!!!!). It may be a question of semantics but it could lead to misconceptions as was evidenced by the Airbus that lost its fin and rudder in NY just after 9/11.
Adjusted that for you beamer - hope you don't mind! The only person permitted to treat their aircraft in that manner was, in my opinion, of course, https://giphy.com/gifs/blackadder-go...-xtSYruVOOVou4 (with thanks to the BBC and the Blackadder team!). Honestly, those who use the saying are just that - Lord Flashhearts!

"Apply sufficient rudder pressure to smoothly bring the nose of the aircraft round to where you want it..." - just like any other control! Simples!!!!

Doing my IR training - textbook x-wind landing. Instructor on roll-out "H 'n' H, you are utterly hopeless on Instruments - but I'll give you your due, I couldn't do better on that landing myself!!!" Not sure that much changed!!!!!!!

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Old 20th Jun 2020, 23:30
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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I hope the AAIB, who are going to be looking into this, have a really good look at these two pilots’ previous experience. I do not mean their recent experience but their overall claimed total experience for licence issue.

There have been many accidents in the past where claimed experience has not been substantiated. The Basle Vanguard accident immediately comes to mind.

The AAIB should ensure that claimed experience is genuine.

I have heard they have both been let go. Can anyone confirm?
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 00:56
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Just incredibly poor technique.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 07:51
  #69 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by beamer View Post
..........it could lead to misconceptions as was evidenced by the Airbus that lost its fin and rudder in NY just after 9/11.
You may well get away with large rudder applications on light aircraft, but to use that control input on that Airbus simply demonstrated very shoddy training.......
SKY “accident investigation” program interviewed some of the airline’s trainers who comments were somewhat surprising.....

Last edited by parkfell; 21st Jun 2020 at 09:13.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 08:08
  #70 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by 3wheels View Post

The AAIB should ensure that claimed experience is genuine.
I believe Airtours had a pilot who carried out a substantial amount of “Parker Pen” flying.
Hove Crown Court sentenced him to 9 months, suspended & £ 4000 cost.

The CAA reset the trip counter to ZERO.
Reappeared at GLOBESPAN. Joe Foster (DFO) gave him a second chance.....understandable resentment when possibility of a Command appeared. More newspaper headlines......

I believe the CAA no longer accept sworn affidavits when logbooks go “missing” etc.....
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 08:54
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 3wheels View Post
I hope the AAIB, who are going to be looking into this
That hasn't been confirmed.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 10:04
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by parkfell View Post
You may well get away with large rudder applications on light aircraft, but to use that control input on that Airbus simply demonstrated very shoddy training.......
SKY “accident investigation” program interviewed some of the airline’s trainers who comments were some surprising.....
Is it not so much the "amount" but rather the "rate of application" that leads to things heading South - with any control input? Even on a light aircraft, you rapidly apply a large rudder input (or any control input for that matter), you just compound any issues you may have with the associated secondary effects rapidly appearing from Stage Left to add to your woes as you now need to counter those too - that's what the first few lessons for even a PPL are all about. Was the NY Airbus "accident" more a product of repeated and rapid applications of rudder if I recall correctly? Was it also not a case of the PF applying a glider technique he'd picked up where secondary effects can be used intentionally and he was trying to counter the rolling induced by the wake by using the secondary effects of rudder?

Yes, you may need to apply a sufficiently large control input to get the aircraft to do what you want it to do - but, ideally, you should always be ahead of the plane/anticipating that eventuality so that you detect any deviation early before it fully develops and "emergency measures" are needed. True, the Law of Sod can apply (particularly with the weather) and a freak gust hit you out the blue at the worst possible moment (we've all been there, had that!!!) - but you should still be as gentle as you can in the recovery. And you can usually predict when something is likely to happen (eg look upwind from the threshold on short final just in case there are large buildings which may cause you some fun & frollicks over the fence) and so your reaction when it does should be more "Mmmm, took a while before it threw that trick in!" rather than "Blimey, what the bleep was that???!!!".

Either way, in this case, it seems to be the zero use of rudder which assisted in the x-country roll-out. Anyway, just some thoughts FWIW!
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 10:55
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Is it so difficult to build a level runway instead of this roller coaster? The UK seems to have more than a fair share which makes it rather even more challenging. Just when one thinks the plane is about to touch down and straightens it out the runway may literally disappear below.

Last edited by wondering; 21st Jun 2020 at 17:52.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 12:00
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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It's disappointing to see so many videos of airliners these days landing in xwinds without removal of drift prior to touchdown - is this technique no longer taught? Ditto failing to keep the flightdeck upwind of the centreline to keep the main gear over the centreline throughout.

Another question - why didn't BHX extend its old runway 06/24?

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Old 21st Jun 2020, 12:13
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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It is still taught, and still the recommended technique in the B737 FCTM (don’t know about the ATP...)


Last edited by Alrosa; 21st Jun 2020 at 13:29.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 13:40
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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As far as I know, the "side-slip, crossed controls during approach," "crab until flare, with rudder in the last few feet" - and even "plant it with some drift on" techniques are all taught and used.

Rudder yaw can lift the upwind wing (yaw/roll coupling) at the worst possible moment.

Which is appropriate for a given aircraft type or situation depends significantly on the aircraft geometry and ground clearance, and the possibility of a wing-, prop- or engine-strike if touching down with one wing low. Thus it is not one-size-fits-all.

It did occur to me that if this West Atlantic crew is rated for both WA's jets and ATPs, but had mostly been flying the jets the past few months, they might have "reverted to type" unintentionally under stress.

The ATP looks like an aircraft I would land in Xwind using crossed-controls/sideslip all the way to touchdown on one wheel. But the manual may say otherwise.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 16:00
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Discorde View Post
It's disappointing to see so many videos of airliners these days landing in xwinds without removal of drift prior to touchdown - is this technique no longer taught?
Yes, you did not see so many videos of bad landings on youtube or facebook 40 or 50 years ago
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 16:08
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Discorde View Post
........Another question - why didn't BHX extend its old runway 06/24?

There is a railway line just beyond the end of 06 and hangars and housing I think beyond 24, so no room for extension.

I landed a shed on 06 or 24 once about 100 years ago.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 18:08
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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The UK's track record in allocating resources to improve infrastructure is not spectacular. If BHX was located in France or Germany the gov't would have cleared the built-up area to the southwest and extended the runway to 3000m or so. Or - more likely - built a new airport.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 21:38
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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When I was at university in Birmingham in the late 1980s I used to spend many a happy hour on the observation deck at BHX. Back then the ATP was in passenger service with British Midland and Manx. I saw it land on many occasions and it didn’t seem to have any more or less trouble with crosswinds than other types so I don’t think one can blame the aircraft here.

With regard to Discorde’s question, by the time the runways needed extending in the 1960s, 06/24 was hemmed in by the railway and the A45 so I am guessing extending 15/33 was a lot cheaper. In the late 1980s 06/24 was still in use with full length (4,600ft) available and the occasional BAC111 and B737-200 would land on it if winds were strong enough.
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