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Here's something to keep you at the edge of your seat

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Here's something to keep you at the edge of your seat

Old 1st Jun 2020, 07:23
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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One of the most useful pieces of advice I was given was to brief a go-around just before you actually do it.

So say to PM "It looks like we might have to go-around. If so, I will simultaneously call 'Go-around....Flap' and pitch up to xx° and push the thrust levers fully forward to set TOGA thrust. I will then read out the FMA. You will check my actions and thrust and monitor our climb and call when it is positive. I will call gear up. Our missed approach altitude is xxx and set. etc. OK, ready?"

(Of course sometimes a go-around must be done immediately but usually there will be a few moments to pre-brief it).

PilotLZ's post sums things up very well and prompts me to roll out again my call for Chief pilots to consider mandating 3 fully manual approaches to land every 6 months, (in appropriate conditions). We used to have to log practice auto-lands like that, and the same protocol could now be transferred to manual flying practice.

This small step should be easy to implement and might begin to address and stop the rusting of our pilot skills.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 09:19
  #42 (permalink)  

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One of the most useful pieces of advice I was given was to brief a go-around just before you actually do it.

So say to PM "It looks like we might have to go-around. If so, I will simultaneously call 'Go-around....Flap' and pitch up to xx° and push the thrust levers fully forward to set TOGA thrust. I will then read out the FMA. You will check my actions and thrust and monitor our climb and call when it is positive. I will call gear up. Our missed approach altitude is xxx and set. etc. OK, ready?"
In the days when this old fart was flying, this was part of something called the "Approach Brief". Apart obviously of setting the missed approach altitude, since the brief was done prior to TOD
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 12:53
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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PilotLZ's post sums things up very well and prompts me to roll out again my call for Chief pilots to consider mandating 3 fully manual approaches to land every 6 months, (in appropriate conditions)
Do you need to have it written down? Just do it. (unless prohibited by the company)
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 15:16
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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In the Boeing, if you press TOGA switch once with autotrust ON, plane will give you power for your weight for a climb rate of 1000ft/MN if you press a second time TOGA, max trust is set.
This only works if the aircraft has not touched down.

Once WOW is sensed, the ac is in land mode....pressing TOGA has no effect and AT is disengaged.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 16:17
  #45 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 172_driver View Post
Do you need to have it written down? Just do it. (unless prohibited by the company)
I think that last statement is a big part of the problem that PilotLZ was taking about.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 16:45
  #46 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Fixed this with bold lettering
[...], I will simultaneously call 'Go-around....Flap' and firewall the throttles. Then pitch up to xx° while you check GA thrust is set. Afterwards, I will read FMA loud, we verify the NAV guidance, and you advise positive climb lest we forget to raise the gear. Until that moment, no calls to ATC or resposes, except "MediumJet123, going around" or "standby".
Mini-rehearsal works like magic, and after 5 or more years on the job actually see the situation developing bit in advance.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 17:32
  #47 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
Mini-rehearsal works like magic, and after 5 or more years on the job actually see the situation developing bit in advance.
I agree with this. Especially at my company where there are six callouts to be made (excluding the FMA) before the PM announces “positive rate”.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 18:09
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Herod - "Approach Brief"
The briefing is the flight-plan for the mind.

System operation;
So TOGA buttons change AT mode in the air, but not on the ground.
TOGA buttons change FD mode in the air, on the ground … ?

Avoid confusion; simplify procedures:
Always advance thrust lever manually; press TOGA button for FD guidance, … speed profile ?
Select flaps as per manufacturers procedure; check power set.
Gear up as per takeoff procedure, the aircraft is in the air, flying.
Fly the aircraft, not the mode annunciations.
Special briefing, alternative procedure if missed approach is terrain limited.

A GA is a takeoff without landing.

A landing is an approach without GA.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 22:05
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
I agree with this. Especially at my company where there are six callouts to be made (excluding the FMA) before the PM announces “positive rate”.
Serious ??
What so he need to say ?
In my airline the call from PF is "go around, flaps 15", PM move Flaps, check vertical speeds and trust moving forward and say "positive rate" when it is good then PF call for gear up then PM check FMA mode and levers position and that it until 500ft from go around altitude...I think it is enough. No need to have big speech when go around ...
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 01:49
  #50 (permalink)  
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My last airline found the Airbus SOP quite sufficient "GA - FLAPS". My current airline would rather have us talk ourselves to death than just get on with flying the plane. It's hard enough to get right when you're in the sim, and from what I've observed on the line, it's always a mess. Of course, the instructors who hardly ever leave the sim can't understand why it's often fumbled.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 03:43
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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We talk about pilot skills, and CRM training but this captain had over 24000 hours under his belt of which 6100 were on type. He managed that without killing himself and everybody else with him. I think he knows how to fly the aeroplane. CRM certainly seemed to be lacking but there also seemed to be no immediate understanding of the peril they were actually in and perhaps they needed a bit of fear for the CRM training to kick in. We can blame automation and boy that does have a lot to answer for but it has also saved countless lives. But there are two things can easily negate things like piloting skills and experience, CRM, automation, checklist procedure, pre flight ground inspections, flight planning, sim training, techniques, procedures and knowlege of aviation rules of proecudre and navigation. Playing host to complacency and a exhibiting a lack of sound airmanship. It's just the umpteenth approach to this airfield right? It 's just a GA. We do this all the time in the sim. Touch this, flick that and Bobs your uncle, right? Oh yeah we deselected auto thrust this time...that was a bit different eh!! But you know, under everyday circumstance a GA would have had us climbing like a home sick angel so I never need to look at the EPR's'to confirm the engines are are actually doing what I asked them to do (or that I thought I asked them to do).

From a military transport (non pilot) flying perspective I remember one of my captains emphasising in a pre- takeoff briefing on another national assistance task that involved days of short ferry flights between two main islands, " This is just another routine flight guys, so let's be extra vigilant!" Hidden in those words were the need for airmanship and to be on the look out for that silent killer, complacency.

If PPRuNe is anything to go by, I get the impression complacency is a close flying companion of many commercial crew today, along with boredom. Rather natural in light of the repetitive nature of the task and the routine of it all. Remember when the flight engineer would have hollered obscenities at you if you touched the throttles when you shouldn't or didn't touch the throttles when you should have? Perhaps there is a ghost seat now in many flight decks where the flight engineers once sat and this is where Mr Complacency now sits waiting for you...... to do nothing. With his calming and reassuring silky voice, "your doing fine, keep doing this and everything will be good....!

Airmanship on the other hand sits with the pilots. If they have it, complacency doesn't stand a chance. If they don't then the silent ''killer'' waits to spring the trap.

Full marks to Mr Douglas who despite been given every opportunity to give up the complacency ghost as it were, kept flying long enough for the pilots to realise their folly and to finally react.

In a bid to to reduce the number lives lost in motorcycle accidents in my country, the Police are running a road safety campaign that includes signage with the words ""Respect Every Ride". Perhaps "Respect Every Flight" should be the mantra for commercial aviation.


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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 06:53
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 172_driver View Post
Do you need to have it written down? Just do it. (unless prohibited by the company)
Yes, written down, logged and checked, that is my whole point !

Then pilots will have to do it and prove they did it. That way we mandate manual flying. A small start, agreed, but it would foster an atmosphere of encouragement to keep one's skills sharp.

You might be one who does a fully manual approach every day, but trust me there are many who keep all the automatics in until past 1000' agl and then they wonder why their skills are rusty when they screw up even an ILS when they attempt it manually.

Last edited by Uplinker; 2nd Jun 2020 at 07:39.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 07:00
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Herod View Post
In the days when this old fart was flying, this was part of something called the "Approach Brief". Apart obviously of setting the missed approach altitude, since the brief was done prior to TOD
Again, maybe I didn't explain my point very well.

What I meant was a pre- go-around brief immediately before actually doing it, (not 30 minutes before). So you are at 6 miles and despite your best efforts you are still closing on the one ahead, or the one on the runway missed their exit so you are 90% sure you will be going around. Then is the time to say to PM 'OK in a moment we will probably have to go-around. I will call go-around flap..........etc, OK ready?'

Last edited by Uplinker; 2nd Jun 2020 at 07:23.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 07:38
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fixed this with bold lettering
[...], I will simultaneously call 'Go-around....Flap' and firewall the throttles. Then pitch up to xx° while you check GA thrust is set. Afterwards, I will read FMA loud, we verify the NAV guidance, and you advise positive climb lest we forget to raise the gear. Until that moment, no calls to ATC or resposes, except "MediumJet123, going around" or "standby".
See, your version seems nervous to me - it makes me feel that something bad is about to happen: "Firewalling the throttles..." "read the FMA loud", sounds like you think you are moments from disaster and you must do something physical and wrestle the aircraft.

But, it need not be like that. It should be calm, but positive and a controlled process. It often isn't, and this could be why. A pre-brief immediately before doing it - even simply saying "I am going to go-around around, are you ready?" might help enormously.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 07:58
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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the captain ordered "Go Around" and pressed the TOGA button
that sums it more or less....not a pilot, but a button manipulator. He should be stripped of his rank and sent back to primary training on gliders.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 08:05
  #56 (permalink)  

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Lord Farringdon:

Remember when the flight engineer would have hollered obscenities at you if you touched the throttles when you shouldn't or didn't touch the throttles when you should have? Perhaps there is a ghost seat now in many flight decks where the flight engineers once sat and this is where Mr Complacency now sits waiting for you...... to do nothing. With his calming and reassuring silky voice, "your doing fine, keep doing this and everything will be good....!
In a nutshell.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 10:37
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by kontrolor View Post
the captain ordered "Go Around" and pressed the TOGA button
that sums it more or less....not a pilot, but a button manipulator. He should be stripped of his rank and sent back to primary training on gliders.
Well this is how you initiate go-around on most aircraft. It's what happened afterwards that's the issue here.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 13:35
  #58 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
But, it need not be like that. It should be calm, but positive and a controlled process. It often isn't, and this could be why. A pre-brief immediately before doing it - even simply saying "I am going to go-around around, are you ready?" might help enormously.
Fair call on the choice of words, any manoeuvre on this job should be as mundane as possible. Perfectly in agreement with the second point too, look across seeking eye contact, wink, and let's go not get famous.

My vocabulary is limited and tailored to non-english speaking environment firewall was a shorthand screen language here, to avoid getting type specific. On the A/C we both are familiar with, this works for me: "Three clicks all the way, close the flaps and I read FMA. We check together, adjust NAV, with positive climb - gear up. No talking to ATC before this is finished." (the desire to avoid R/T is region specific, not a rule I consider universally relevant).

You surely noticed, the actual reason for the bolding was the sequence. Leading with thrust, foremost. Especially in the context of this thread.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 15:52
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Your lordship - Lord Farringdon.
The concepts of safety range CRM to Mantra; neither perfect, nor static. Change according to the last accident or academic concept, often a long time after the event with fading memories.

As much as current safety initiatives, operations, and training are ridiculed, remember that they have achieved the current high levels of safety - whatever the measure. However, the industry must not continue to expect the same methods to improve safety beyond what has been achieved - we keep on doing the same, but expect a different result.
Thats complacent.

Yes keep what we have, do not try to move the clocks back; look forward seeking small changes which might influence the future, change, check, be prepared to change again - if only we knew where to start.

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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 18:42
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FlyingStone View Post
Well this is how you initiate go-around on most aircraft. It's what happened afterwards that's the issue here.
But the A/T was off
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