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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 29th May 2020, 14:47
  #861 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AGBagb View Post
45 pages of comments........ Are we any nearer to knowing whether: a) this was a horrible gear-up landing and go-round, that then got even worse; or b) was this a poorly executed gear-down go-around, with the gear then raised well before a positive rate of climb? The focus here seems more on how they crew got themselves into the mess, without anyone being sure what the mess was they got themselves into.....
do we not already have reports from ATC interviews that gear was UP on approach?
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Old 29th May 2020, 14:48
  #862 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by AGBagb View Post
45 pages of comments........ Are we any nearer to knowing whether: a) this was a horrible gear-up landing and go-round, that then got even worse; or b) was this a poorly executed gear-down go-around, with the gear then raised well before a positive rate of climb? The focus here seems more on how they crew got themselves into the mess, without anyone being sure what the mess was they got themselves into.....
Early on in the thread, calculations were made about - if the gear were down to start with - how long the gear would take to retract so that no damage was made to the doors when the pods scraped, as seen in video. The conclusion was that the gear was never down.

When photographs and video emerged of the runway scrapes, it became clearer that there was not enough time for the full gear retraction cycle to have taken place. Therefore, the gear was never down.
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Old 29th May 2020, 14:58
  #863 (permalink)  
 
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The "false glideslope" theory holds no water.

ATC queried their position and offered alternatives, the crew's reply was indicative that they knew they were high and would press on with the approach.

It was VMC and being "local" pilots they would know that the view out of the window wasn't normal.

Absolutely NOTHING in the speed and height data looks normal.

As a former ATCO, what does bother me is that the TWR controller wasn't keeping a good eye on his piece of real estate and the customer and missed the runway contact.
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Old 29th May 2020, 15:14
  #864 (permalink)  
 
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cbfkoh

It looks like fast rushed approach. Attempted fast landing with speed above the inhibiting speed for undercarriage not down and first appreciation of that was when the engines touched the runway.
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Old 29th May 2020, 15:48
  #865 (permalink)  
 
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There is a system that has worked since the beginning of powered flight to keep it as safe and efficient as possible. Parts of the system are badly disrupted by the current pandemic, and unusual events happen in unusual times.
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Old 29th May 2020, 15:49
  #866 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The Fat Controller View Post
The "false glideslope" theory holds no water.

ATC queried their position and offered alternatives, the crew's reply was indicative that they knew they were high and would press on with the approach.

It was VMC and being "local" pilots they would know that the view out of the window wasn't normal.

Absolutely NOTHING in the speed and height data looks normal.

As a former ATCO, what does bother me is that the TWR controller wasn't keeping a good eye on his piece of real estate and the customer and missed the runway contact.
Your strength of opinion suggests you have access to more data. So what's your conclusion then?
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Old 29th May 2020, 16:23
  #867 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Joejosh999 View Post
do we not already have reports from ATC interviews that gear was UP on approach?
Yes.
Also another video with clearer audio.



He is saying, are you going to try again (carry on), with the Belly Landing procedure, that i have just seen you attempt prior to the Go Around.
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Old 29th May 2020, 17:05
  #868 (permalink)  
 
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Here's some audio I edited and posted here a few hours after the crash. There is presumably a much better recording available from ATC including the minutes before this clip starts. The earlier LiveATC.net OKPC recording was unusable due to an open squelch on one of the channels scanned.

Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
Edited KHI ATC audio from a LiveATC.net clip posted above. It's a .zip file which will open on most computers but not on most phones or tablets.

Sounds like the first transmission from PK8303 is something like 'We are comfortable and we can make it inshallah'.
Attached Files

Last edited by Airbubba; 29th May 2020 at 20:11.
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Old 29th May 2020, 17:17
  #869 (permalink)  
 
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My red ...
Originally Posted by The Fat Controller View Post
The "false glideslope" theory holds no water. Not a pilot, so I defer to them.

ATC queried their position and offered alternatives, the crew's reply was indicative that they knew they were high and would press on with the approach. Not a pilot, so I defer to them. BUT I see no reference to the pilot(s) saying they knew were high.

It was VMC and being "local" pilots they would know that the view out of the window wasn't normal. Not a pilot, so I defer again.

Absolutely NOTHING in the speed and height data looks normal. Generally agreed here, from TOD.

As a former ATCO, what does bother me is that the TWR controller wasn't keeping a good eye on his piece of real estate and the customer and missed the runway contact. AGREED. Regardless of disparaging remarks up-Thread, TWR should be looking out of the windows at a landing aircraft. Did he have 5-10 other aircraft on frequency that prevented him looking at the PIA on short final? I asked earlier if anyone knew what the traffic density was like ... no response from anyone. But ATC comments usually carry little weight in this environment - Captains rule 😎.
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Old 29th May 2020, 18:47
  #870 (permalink)  
 
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The approach mode engages automatically, except when it doesn’t. You may have to select it yourself.
Approach mode never engages automatically it's the approach phase that gets activated when overflying the decele point in NAV. They are not same. You don't select Approach phase but you activate approach phase. Approach has to be armed for LOC/GS capture.
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Old 29th May 2020, 19:11
  #871 (permalink)  
 
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Without rereading 45 pages, is there any plot of speed over the runway on the first approach?
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Old 29th May 2020, 19:43
  #872 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flyingchanges View Post
Without rereading 45 pages, is there any plot of speed over the runway on the first approach?
From a couple of posts earlier in the thread:

Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
Ian at FlightRadar24 has harvested some indicated airspeed data from the extended Mode-S data fields:





This altitude plot agrees nicely with the ones previously posted in this thread.



https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/p...-near-karachi/
Originally Posted by unworry View Post
Thanks again Airbubba

took the liberty of highlighting a couple of key areas below, although it's comes as no surprise to most here.

Based on the FR24 CSV data
- (best approximation, due to periodicity and latency of recorded data)
-
  • 251 IAS out of FL100
  • 240 during descent, give or take
  • 236 IAS at 2,000'
  • ~215 IAS on tarmac, skipping down to 191 IAS
  • recording a minimum of 173 IAS, 200' AGL into the GA

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Old 29th May 2020, 20:40
  #873 (permalink)  
 
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OK when the weather is bad airport cameras won’t help, but just as police now wear body cameras for after the fact analysis, shouldn’t airports have permanent cameras to film all ground , approach and landing activity to help provide facts. Imagine if we had high quality footage of this event from multiple angles.
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Old 29th May 2020, 20:58
  #874 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by zero/zero View Post
No, although the moving TLs are helpful on a Boeing, the single most important indication of what a complex automated aircraft is doing (be it Airbus or Boeing) are the FMAs and having a solid understanding of automation modes. In this case they did not see or understand the FLCH/HOLD trap.
A comprehensive differences training would include a solid understanding of the automatics (and other systems) and how they should be used, because the Airbus and Boeing automatics are quite different. A good example being the autothrottles - keeping a hand resting lightly on the throttles during final has the useful purpose is indicating what the engines are doing (or at least are being commanded to do) - while on Airbus it won't tell you squat. The SFO Asiana pilot apparently wasn't taught that - or about the infamous FLCH trap.
I'm not saying the Boeing moving throttles is inherently better (I think it is but I'm biased ), I'm saying it's different than Airbus so when a pilot is transitioning, they should fully understand the differences and how best to use those differences to their advantage. Same thing with the force feedback through the yoke - it's there on Boeing, so the pilots should be taught what it means - and that if it starts getting excessive it's telling you something is wrong (reportedly the Asiana pilot was having to pull back with ~80 pounds of force before he hit the seawall - anyone experienced with flying Boeing aircraft would know that meant something was seriously wrong - but apparently he hadn't been so taught.
In short, the differences training that the Asiana pilot received was inadequate, and that contributed to the accident.
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Old 29th May 2020, 21:29
  #875 (permalink)  
 
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Guys, I cannot buy the question of fixed throttles (Airbus) or moving ones (Boeing). In my opinion it’s unlikely it has anything to deal with this accident. I guess many of us here started flying on poorly automated aircraft, let alone the Cessnas, Piper, Jodel, Robin, Stampe, Tiger Moth we learnt to fly on (and still fly, in my own case).

What do we do when at the controls of these, and of the Classic 747s, DC8, DC9s, Focker 27s and B727s we used to fly ? We set a preset power value, eg for example 1.15 EPR, 5000 in/lbs torque, 45% N1, or 1750 rpm on a fixed-pitch prop piston aircraft. And we set a pitch attitude, relevant with sequence of flight and airplane weight and configuration.

So while moving throttles, we look at power gauges and visually set proper value. Furthermore, on all aircraft but tail mounted jets, engine sound can be helpul. Then, as a former Boeing airman, I obviously learnt to do the same while feeling the autothrottle moving in my hands. And, then, some years ago I switched to the A330 and its fixed throttles. What am I doing when flying an Autothrust approach ? I’m still monitoring engine power gauges every 5 seconds or so... I cannot imagine any pilot doing otherwise.

So in the case of this terrible accident, I don’t think fixed throttles were an issue. If all what has been said before is true, ie ‘‘supersonic’’ speed, descent path, pitch attitude and vertical speed à-la space shuttle, these unhappy guys were not in condition to fly an aircraft. Poor training ? Poor CRM ? Poor physical condition due to ramadan ? Lack of recent experience ? Hopefully future will say..
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Old 29th May 2020, 21:35
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I wonder if they tried to use the emergency cancel button to silence the overspeed alarm (and I'm pretty sure that it can't be cancelled that way) and inadvertently removed the GEAR NOT DOWN warning.
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Old 29th May 2020, 21:40
  #877 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry homebuilt - that was part of a thread drift that started several pages back where this was compared to the Asiana 777 crash at SFO (horribly botched approach under near ideal weather conditions resulting in a crash). No suggestion that it has any relevance to this crash other than the inability to land a perfectly good aircraft in good weather.
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Old 29th May 2020, 22:00
  #878 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fursty Ferret View Post
I wonder if they tried to use the emergency cancel button to silence the overspeed alarm (and I'm pretty sure that it can't be cancelled that way) and inadvertently removed the GEAR NOT DOWN warning.
By pressing the EMER CANC pushbutton you can switch any aural warning, but the discrepancy message remains on ECAM. But these guys were likely ‘‘tunnellized’’, as said earlier, and obviously didn’t hear any aural warning nor any other sound, as it uses to be when one get beyond his brain limit.
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Old 29th May 2020, 22:02
  #879 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Sorry homebuilt - that was part of a thread drift that started several pages back where this was compared to the Asiana 777 crash at SFO (horribly botched approach under near ideal weather conditions resulting in a crash). No suggestion that it has any relevance to this crash other than the inability to land a perfectly good aircraft in good weather.
Ok, my apologizes, I’ve certainly read this very interresting topic too fast..
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Old 29th May 2020, 22:17
  #880 (permalink)  
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Thumbs up

Originally Posted by homebuilt View Post
Guys, I cannot buy the question of fixed throttles (Airbus) or moving ones (Boeing). In my opinion it’s unlikely it has anything to deal with this accident.
. . . .
So in the case of this terrible accident, I don’t think fixed throttles were an issue.
Precisely.

Why these observations/comments about "non-moving thrust levers" continue to arise in discussions regarding accidents involving Airbus after thirty years of worldwide A320 flying, is a puzzle. Moving/non-moving is not an issue. I flew Douglas, Boeing NB/WB, Lockheed, Airbus NB/WB, the latter for fifteen years, and the thrust levers and all types were never an issue because one just adjusts to the machine one is currently flying; QED.

And if one didn't like what the airplane, including the Airbus, was doing at any time, one just disconnected everything including thrust levers and flew the airplane just as one would fly a DC9/DC8 or 727 because that's all the A320 is, underneath the C* laws and protections.

On thrust levers/throttles, joysticks or control columns, one can comment on an airplane only if one has been trained on it and has flown it for some bit of time. Otherwise its just opinion and while perhaps interesting to argue, I believe that remaining curious and asking questions rather than pronouncing is still a good way to engage and learn in aviation. This isn't an "invitation" to stay in one's back yard...not at all...this is about acknowledging real expertise while engaging same. And that is still just good manners, isn't it?

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