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Ukrainian Aircraft down in Iran

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Ukrainian Aircraft down in Iran

Old 18th Mar 2021, 16:53
  #661 (permalink)  
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If the rest of the report is like these 2 paragraphs, no need to read the rest . we already know.
Am I correct in assuming that the report is not going into details as to why communications failed between the Civil ATC part and the Air defense unit responsible for the coordination ?
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Old 18th Mar 2021, 21:51
  #662 (permalink)  
 
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Does the report say anything about how there had been a whole string of departures in the previous hour on the same track, but this was the one shot at..
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Old 18th Mar 2021, 21:56
  #663 (permalink)  
 
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Here is a link to the full report (made available by the CTSB, Canada). English version begins on page 140:
https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-i...t/a20f0002.pdf
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 03:10
  #664 (permalink)  
 
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I believe you're looking for pp. 75-76. Presumably, after a round of scanning for threats, the mobile SAM scooted about 100m at 4:54 AM, and went into Standby mode. They changed their direction, but did not reset north, resulting in a 105-degree error. They switched the radar on again at 6:07, and acquired a target at 6:14, apparently bearing 250 and heading 56, but actually bearing 143 and heading 309. At 6:14:19, they reported the contact to the Coordination Center and twenty seconds later fired. According to the Iranian military, which provided this information, the Coordination Center did not receive the call, nor could it be heard on their recordings.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 03:26
  #665 (permalink)  
 
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The Iranian government is committed to a safe, effective and efficient civil air transport system......said no one, ever

Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 19th Mar 2021 at 03:37.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 09:39
  #666 (permalink)  
 
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Uncertain if any abbreviation might exist for the SLF-equivalent of an individual who lacks real, operational knowledge of SAM units or their radars, but ....
If a unit had decided to create facts that possibly would be seen as credible as an explanation for a supposed "error" - as a cover story - would a 105-degree error resulting from failure to "reset north" be a plausible way to set up the cover story?

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Old 19th Mar 2021, 10:27
  #667 (permalink)  
 
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While this is a tragedy I think it is quite remarkable, that they are finally open about what happened. This is a very good sign after all those lives lost.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 18:24
  #668 (permalink)  
 
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I don't think so.....

From the head of Canada's Transportation Safety Board

The TSB’s Fox says her agency does not typically comment on other agencies’ reports. “However, given this unprecedented situation, where the state whose military was implicated in the event led the investigation, and given its impact within Canada, we feel that it is important to publicly convey our independent assessment of the final report,” she says.

Fox says Iran’s report frames the incident “in the context” of Iran-US military tension. But it fails to describe Iran’s missile-defence supervision and oversight practices, to address “underlying deficiencies” or to say what actions Iran has taken to prevent such future incidents.

“The AAIB says that military activities fall outside of the scope of” ICAO’s accident investigation guidelines, Fox says. “We do not agree.”

Fox also says Iran’s civil aviation agency failed to warn airlines of military-related hazards, as ICAO recommends.

TSB representatives had some participation in the investigation. Iran granted Canada “more access to the investigation activities than we were technically entitled to, but less than what we asked for”, says Fox.

For instance, the TSB was not allowed to hear the 737’s cockpit-voice recorder or to access flight-data recordings.

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Old 19th Mar 2021, 18:57
  #669 (permalink)  
 
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Reading #660 they clearly blame the military and its risk management. What else could they do realistically? I understand the frustration about that political blame game intro but it's a cvivil government body that finally openly criticizes their own military.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 19:02
  #670 (permalink)  
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“The AAIB says that military activities fall outside of the scope of” ICAO’s accident investigation guidelines, Fox says. “We do not agree.”
Well he can disagree of course but this is a fact and correct.
I have not finished to read the Iranian report but so far I read the confirmation that the Civil ATC did coordinate the departure with the military sector , so the communication failure(s) were inside the military apparatus.
Procedure to avoid misaligning a missile battery and improving communications between them and their command center fall well outside of ICAO Annex 13.

That said, that the Canadians, seen the number of their nationals on board, feel unhappy with the report one can understand them.
Fox also says Iran’s civil aviation agency failed to warn airlines of military-related hazards, as ICAO recommends.
There they have a point, and in fact there lies the main issue. The Sates are responsible to declare a conflict area and airlines decide to fly or not in that area,. Often listening to CNN gives better info that waiting for a NOTAM of the State involved.
Similar situation at the moment with Saudi Arabia . IFALPA just issued a Safety bulletin , urging extreme caution. But if your airline schedule you to go , or, like in this case , to fly back home, what do you do ?

One mystery though , I cannot see why the Canadians were not allowed to have access to FDR and CVR recordings . What can there be in there that is subject to secrecy or that would alter the conclusions. ?
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 19:18
  #671 (permalink)  
 
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ATC Watcher:

Re your last point. Canada's participation was restricted to only those areas listed under 5.27 of Annex 13, which lists the things that an observer / expert from a State that does not qualify (in that given accident) to particpate directly via the "Accredtied Representative" rules of Annex 13. The relevant section of Annex 13:

PARTICIPATION OF STATES HAVING SUFFERED FATALITIES OR SERIOUS INJURIES TO ITS CITIZENS Rights and entitlement
5.27 A State which has a special interest in an accident by virtue of fatalities or serious injuries to its citizens shall, upon making a request to do so, be permitted by the State conducting the investigation to appoint an expert who shall be entitled to:
a) visit the scene of the accident;
b) have access to the relevant factual information;
c) participate in the identification of the victims;
d) assist in questioning surviving passengers who are citizens of the expert’s State; and
e) receive a copy of the Final Report.

That section omits some of the entitlements for State's "Accredited Representatives" listed separately in the Annex, including the specifc right to be present for the decoding / playing of the various recorders.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 19:33
  #672 (permalink)  
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Thank you for that explanation , forgot that bit. you are right. , I can guess the relations between the Iranians and the Canadians might have been strained that the Iranians decided tp play by the book.
They are correct but it is rather unusual I would say.
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Old 19th Mar 2021, 19:56
  #673 (permalink)  
 
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ATC Watcher: I think your comment is right on the money re Iran played this "by the book" meaning doing only what Annex 13 requires and nothing more. As you suggest, that is somewhat unusual as, in my experience, most States allow those additional experts more latitude. And yes, the relations between Canada and Iran have been very strained since 2012 (Canada currently has no diplomatic representation in Iran and vice versa.)
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Old 20th Mar 2021, 02:35
  #674 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder why for a flight under 1,300 nm and duration about 2hr 45min, departing before dawn, elevation 3,600ft on a recent 737-800, they needed to leave 85 pieces of luggage behind due to weight issues. Aircraft seems more capable than that.
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Old 6th Apr 2021, 21:46
  #675 (permalink)  
 
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Indictments in Iran re: shootdown of Ukrainian 752

Reporting in The Canadian Press today states that in Iran, ten officials have been indicted in connection with this incident. The indicated officials have not been named. The news article refers to other reporting about statements made by an Iranian "military prosecutor" - specifically referring to the "semiofficial ISNA news agency" and the "Iranian judiciary's Mizan news agency."

Article in The Canadian Press also reports statement by Canada Prime Minister Justin Trudeau demanding further accountability, compensation, and justice. Additional statements by others as well.
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