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Ukrainian Aircraft down in Iran

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Ukrainian Aircraft down in Iran

Old 26th Jan 2020, 20:17
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Celare Humanum Est

The organizational dynamics in holding back the bad news are of a piece with the MAX saga.

Translation: To cover up is human

Especially applies to managers, superior ranks and politicians.
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Old 26th Jan 2020, 22:54
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So the on-again, off-again status of Iran cooperating with international investigation specifically with respect to proper handling of the CVR and FDR is affected in what way by the in-fighting (per NYT's reporting) between power centers or factions within their government and military hierarchies? The multi-national group convened by Canada seems conspicuous by omission in the Times article.

The possibility of a more deliberately overt, and obviously far more malevolent, act wasn't ruled out before the NYT reporting. And its reporting still does not warrant ruling out such a more sinister truth. Not conspiracy theorizing, rather just bitterly skeptical when a story is recited but appears not to add up in one or more ways, and could plausibly (or more than only plausibly) turn out to be a cover story.

A few years ago, at an official conference of a major organization in international civil aviation I had the chance to meet two staff members from Iran's Civil Aviation Organization, a Director in Air Navigation Services and Aerodromes; an Assistant Director also. The mostly small-talk conversation was cordial enough. I wondered how significantly their career paths and actual roles and responsibilities were as professionally appropriate as they were in conversation, rather than having been dictated by what is usually called a theocracy. As to what these young men - both appeared pretty early in career years - would say about the black boxes, in their professional capacities, we only can wonder, guess, and hope.

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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 01:54
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Alleged ATC audio.

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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 13:14
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The BBC reports that the Ukrainian leak of the ATC tape is further straining the investigation: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51356626
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 14:58
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"the investigation"

BBC report helps to clarify - especially in that a regrettable language barrier here impedes understanding much of anything in the RT on the recording. Other than the basic nature of calls to 752 that go unanswered, of course.

Or is it still now only a "purported" ATC recording? . . . . . one would think that Iran's ending cooperation with Ukraine civil aviation and/or diplomatic officials does tend toward authenticating the released segment.

Specific example: identity of pilot of the other flight communicating with ATC; locate and debrief; report. That's happening, right?? . . . . or is the multilateral group earlier convened by Canada, and the investigatory effort it was trying to press forward, behind 10 points with time starting to run out?
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 16:28
  #586 (permalink)  
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Assuming the BBC report/translation is correct ( I do not speak Farsi nor can read Ukrainian ) what is new here is only the fact that the Aseman pilot report sighting what looked like missiles . We knew from day 1 that other pilots had witnessed the explosion and reported it on the R/T to ATC ( CAA chairman Press conference) but he omitted that part , so yes we can deduct that even the civil authorities knew from the beginning about the likelihood of a missile shutdown .. ( Unlike radar, audio VHF recording is accessible within a few minutes) So much for transparency and lies...
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 07:38
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
So much for transparency and lies...
I think the above sums up quite well everything happened so far.
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Old 6th Feb 2020, 22:05
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Translation of the Ukrainian transcript from Unian news:

The recording time is 05:12
Tower: - Good morning, Ukraine International Airlines 752 (inaudible), departure identified alt 260, climb to 6000 feet, turn right to Paroch.
Tower: - After 6000 feet to Paroch.
Pilot EP3768: - We are approaching from the north, 3768.
Tower: - Good morning, 3768.
Tower: - Aseman 3768 (inaudible), identify 3343 left, level 110.
Pilot EP3768: - Flight 3768, come in.
Pilot EP3768: - We are approaching from the north, 3768.
Pilot EP3768: - No, sir?
Pilot EP3768: - Zone 320, active for passage?
Tower: - GPS (inaudible).
Pilot EP3768: - Flares on route, as if from a missile. Should anything like this be happening there?
Tower: - Zone 320? How many miles away? Where?
EP3768 Pilot: - Can't say for sure. But I think it is near (air field) Payam, (city) Karaj.
Tower: - How many miles? Where?
Pilot EP3768: - I now see the light as it flies off of there.
Tower: - We were not informed of this.
Tower: - How does it look like? What does this light look like?
Pilot EP3768: - That surely is the light from a missile.
Tower: - It's not flying toward the city (Tehran), is it?
Pilot EP3768: - It might be… Oh, no it was flying from the direction of the city.
Tower: - We were informed nothing, but keep watching.
Pilot EP3768: - Okay. I'm getting on the landing course.
Tower: - "Ukraine International Airlines" 752, do you read?
Tower: - "Ukraine International Airlines" 752, do you read?
Tower: - "Ukraine International Airlines" 752, do you read?!
(message repeated several times from 02:27 to 04:25, unanswered)
Tower: - "Aseman" 3768, 9000 (inaudible), landing course.
Tower: - "Aseman" 3768, everything, you see nothing else up there?
Pilot EP3768: - Mr engineer, we saw an explosion, a big flare from the explosion, we don't understand what it is.
Tower: - We don't know for sure...
Pilot EP3768: - Is our course OK?
Tower: - Yes, I don't think there will be any problem for you.
Pilot EP3768: - God forbid!"
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Old 7th Feb 2020, 07:24
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Thanks for posting this, it is unambiguous, this definitively had to be reported so the civil CAA knew from the beginning . Shame on them .
. Just a correction , this is the R/T recording from Approach ( Meharbad ACC) not that from the Tower..
The remarks " We were not informed of this." made twice most probably refers to the activation of the military area R320, not to the missile launches themselves.
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Old 7th Feb 2020, 10:21
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"Pilot EP3768: - We are approaching from the north, 3768.
Tower: - Good morning, 3768.
Tower: - Aseman 3768 (inaudible), identify 3343 left, level 110.
Pilot EP3768: - Flight 3768, come in.
Pilot EP3768: - We are approaching from the north, 3768."

EP3768 is the everyday Aseman flight from Shiraz(SYZ) to Teheran(THR not IKA!), (STA 02:55 UTC; 06:25 IRST)
flight direction ordinarily directly north

approching from the north? at jan.8

Last edited by grity; 7th Feb 2020 at 16:00.
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Old 7th Feb 2020, 11:50
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Now the Syrians are trying it

BBC says A-320 just missed by Syrian AA fire near Damascus.

Last edited by Twitter; 7th Feb 2020 at 13:13.
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Old 7th Feb 2020, 16:56
  #592 (permalink)  
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Quick mod note:
For those who wish to discuss the Damascus news that Twitter refers to, please use a different thread.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 16:20
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Canada is trying to pressure Iran regarding the CVR and FDR (diplomatically: i.e. strongly enough to hopefully convince them, yet gently enough not to cause loss of face and the resultant push-back).

https://globalnews.ca/news/6521385/i...oxes-analysis/

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Old 11th Feb 2020, 00:45
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https://www.theglobeandmail.com/poli...ht-752-black/#

Another report of continuing efforts by International Coordination and Response Group (convened by Canada).

Have similar groups (that is, similar in purpose, functioning, or organization - or in all those attributes) been convened in prior incidents of military units shooting down civil transport category aircraft?

And this Group's appeal to ICAO leadership recently and the invocation of Annex 13 - this prompts a high degree of anticipation about the response (if any) by those ICAO officials, and action by ICAO out-front or behind the scenes (also, if any).

Also, about the perhaps pedantic question of how any manuevering by ICAO in any form would become a matter of record in the organization's massive "house of reports and documents". If there is a next such incident, OR if the organization's initiatives on conflict zones or IATA's or anyplace else's initiatives are to have successful preventative benefit - either outcome - having this Iran instance made a matter of record would seem an obvious necessity. I don't know that a legal--diplomatic--regulatory equivalence for "pointy end" exists, but still.
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Old 15th Feb 2020, 02:38
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From an NBC interview with Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif:

Zarif also acknowledged that Iran is not able to extract information from the black box from the Ukrainian airliner that was shot down by Iranian forces on Jan. 8, but said that Tehran will not hand over the box to outside governments. Zarif defended Iran's decision not to hand over the black box from the Boeing-manufactured aircraft, which Iran says it shot down. Zarif called the incident a tragedy and noted that most of the 176 passengers killed had Iranian passports and relatives in Iran.

Under international aviation rules, Iran had the right to lead the investigation into the downing of the airliner, Zarif said. But he said Iran needed software, cables and additional expertise from the U.S. or other Western countries to be able to decipher the information in the black box.

"We have asked for help, why haven't the United States helped us? This is a humanitarian issue. Why haven't they given us the software? Why haven't they given us the expertise?" Zarif said.

"There are still a lot of unknowns. That's why we want more than anybody else to know what is in the black box, to know what actually happened."

For the moment, "it's just sitting there," Zarif said of the black box.

NBC's Engel asked Zarif, "Right now as we're sitting here , nobody is working on it? Nobody's trying to decipher this?"

And Zarif answered, "No, no. we will not touch the black box without the presence of all interested parties."

In a meeting earlier with Zarif in Munich, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said he had "impressed upon" Iran's foreign minister that a complete and independent investigation into the shooting down of the Ukrainian passenger plane had to be carried out.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/t...zarif-n1137196
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Old 15th Feb 2020, 15:48
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I would like to see the form of the formal request for assistance.
There a numerous nations who have the capability, and doubtless a few who can put an "on the road" package together to read the data.
Smells a bit, that protestation.
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Old 15th Feb 2020, 18:25
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Once again, I hope it isn’t the poor bastard at the end of the chain that gets the blame for this. As James Reason would have said there are systemic failures that caused this and it would be fitting for someone very high up the command chain to take responsibility for this.
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Old 15th Feb 2020, 19:05
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I hope it isn’t the poor bastard at the end of the chain that gets the blame for this.
As we learnt during the MH17 to fire a SAM missile developed during the Soviet era, you need at least 3 persons. It is not just like a trigger happy soldier can shoot an aircraft on his own .. Someone much higher up had to give the OK to shoot .
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 15:50
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Iran claims "black box" damage (WSJ)

Iran Says Airliner’s Black Box Damaged

Iran said the black box of a Ukrainian airliner it mistakenly shot down is significantly damaged, complicating an already protracted investigation of an incident that sparked domestic protests and angry calls for greater government accountability.

After Iran’s military admitted to shooting down Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 and killing all 176 people on board on Jan. 8, Iranian officials indicated the country would send the flight data recorders recovered from the jet’s wreckage to another country—likely Ukraine or France—where the data could be downloaded in what they called a “neutral” laboratory.

However, Tehran has since refused to hand over the black boxes, despite admitting it doesn’t have the necessary technology to assess them.

Instead, Iranian officials asked the U.S. or France to transfer to Iran the equipment needed to download the data—an unusual request that wasn’t met.

On Wednesday, Iranian Defense Minister Amir Hatami said the box was too damaged to read and needed to be repaired first. “The black box of the Ukrainian plane has been considerably damaged,” Mr. Hatami said, according to the IRNA state news agency, adding that Iranian defense authorities had been asked to help repair the box.

“The plan is to first restore the black box and then read it,” he said.

Oleksiy Danilov, the head of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council, who recently visited Iran to discuss the investigation, said on Wednesday that Ukraine is technically ready to analyze the black boxes and Kyiv continues negotiations with Tehran.

“The decoding of the ‘black boxes’ is an important stage in the investigation as it may well provide additional information,” Mr. Danilov said in a statement. “We are committed to fully uncovering all of the details that resulted in this catastrophe. The investigation will continue until the causes are fully understood.”
________
In today's WSJ (claiming fair use derivative from Annex 13, Chicago Convention of 1944).

Interesting, as to how how much credibility is gained, or lost, by this new Iranian assertion.
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 16:01
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adding that Iranian defense authorities had been asked to help repair the box.

“The plan is to first restore the black box and then read it,” he said.
Which leads me to wonder how an entity unable to read the data would know when the data recorder had been repaired to be read?
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