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Severe trim runaway E175 Republic Airways 11/6/19 Atlanta

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Severe trim runaway E175 Republic Airways 11/6/19 Atlanta

Old 9th Nov 2019, 23:03
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_...es_Flight_1080


I also have heard of a AA aircraft that was turned on its side (the degree of which I don’t know) during a pitch runaway.

if my nose is pitched up at some angle that I know I can’t sustain, nor can I correct, banking the aircraft is next.
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Old 10th Nov 2019, 00:22
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Originally Posted by West Coast
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_...es_Flight_1080


I also have heard of a AA aircraft that was turned on its side (the degree of which I don’t know) during a pitch runaway.

if my nose is pitched up at some angle that I know I can’t sustain, nor can I correct, banking the aircraft is next.
Interesting read by Capt Jack McMahan on that flight, slightly different then the VanderBurgh telling and very interesting. Either way, amazing that they got the aircaft down.

Another good read on a prior pprune thread below the 1080 link.

https://www.tristar500.net/library/flight1080.pdf
Falcon Runaway Trim

Last edited by b1lanc; 10th Nov 2019 at 00:40.
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Old 10th Nov 2019, 02:59
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Originally Posted by b1lanc
Interesting read by Capt Jack McMahan on that flight, slightly different then the VanderBurgh telling and very interesting. Either way, amazing that they got the aircaft down.

Another good read on a prior pprune thread below the 1080 link.

https://www.tristar500.net/library/flight1080.pdf
Falcon Runaway Trim
I have seen the Vanderburgh version quite a while ago, just read the Capt Jack version, and it is very, very, very different, to the extent it really devalued Vanderburgh for me.
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Old 10th Nov 2019, 03:01
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Originally Posted by West Coast

I also have heard of a AA aircraft that was turned on its side (the degree of which I don’t know) during a pitch runaway.

if my nose is pitched up at some angle that I know I can’t sustain, nor can I correct, banking the aircraft is next.
On APF, there is some discussion of at least one yoke trim switch deferred prior to flight.

American Eagle 230 maybe (the ntsb link is strange but it eventually gets you to the full narrative)? The departure controller screen capture with ATC audio at rapp is unreal.

https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employmen...5X00017&akey=1
Eagle Flight 230 ? The House of Rapp
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Old 10th Nov 2019, 09:40
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Originally Posted by flocci_non_faccio
"...we're declaring an emergency."

Why not "Mayday mayday mayday"?
It’s a USA thing. For some reason pilots in the states are initially taught to “declare an emergency” with ATC instead of using the mayday mayday or Pan Pan phraseology. Most have to be taught the correct ICAO way once they start flying internationally.
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Old 10th Nov 2019, 16:15
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Originally Posted by barrow
This incident is really interesting. That crew apparently fought their trim system for what seemed like a long time. Leaving aside the obviously sub-optimal design of the 737-MAX, nevertheless with a runaway trim (or MCAS), in the MAX it came down to "Turn off two switches to live". And in this case, the above procedure doesn't seem overly complex, either. How is it that pilots are not performing these procedures within just a minute of when trim or trim-related systems are malfunctioning? And these folks immediately declared it a runaway trim, also.

Obviously I'm making a big assumption about what the failure mode was in this case. I suppose it could be something that was not readily handled by the above procedure.
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Old 10th Nov 2019, 16:33
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Originally Posted by aa777888
This incident is really interesting. That crew apparently fought their trim system for what seemed like a long time. Leaving aside the obviously sub-optimal design of the 737-MAX, nevertheless with a runaway trim (or MCAS), in the MAX it came down to "Turn off two switches to live". And in this case, the above procedure doesn't seem overly complex, either. How is it that pilots are not performing these procedures within just a minute of when trim or trim-related systems are malfunctioning? And these folks immediately declared it a runaway trim, also.

Obviously I'm making a big assumption about what the failure mode was in this case. I suppose it could be something that was not readily handled by the above procedure.
I think it's a little to early to tell about the time frame, actions taken, etc. of this flight. Just because they said the words "runaway trim" on the radio doesn't mean that it was an accurate description of the problem. Even if it was, they may have been able to engage cut out in short order yet suffered much difficulty manually trimming back to a state where they had pitch control.
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Old 10th Nov 2019, 16:47
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Originally Posted by barrow
Well according to this checklist, EVERY trim runaway will be solved by re-setting one or both systems, and AFAIK there is no manual trim wheel in the E175 (can someone confirm?). While not MCAS level bad, I would have thought there would be a back-up plan for those situations where the trim is not working after a reset of both systems, with at least suggested speed/flap setting to get the aircraft back on the ground.
(IMHO If there is such a list, it should have been mentioned at the end of the procedure: "If reset unsuccessful refer to TRIM JAMMED PROCEDURE, or something like that....)
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Old 10th Nov 2019, 17:50
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A Couple reference items for you chaps to mull.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
TRIM ERJ 170.pdf (404.5 KB, 101 views)
File Type: pdf
MEL E170.pdf (10.3 KB, 65 views)
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Old 10th Nov 2019, 19:52
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Originally Posted by Laker


It’s a USA thing. For some reason pilots in the states are initially taught to “declare an emergency” with ATC instead of using the mayday mayday or Pan Pan phraseology. Most have to be taught the correct ICAO way once they start flying internationally.
The FAA removed “declaring an emergency” from the AIM a few years ago but old habits are hard to break. The idea of communications is to get a thought or message to another person. “Mayday Mayday Mayday” means you are declaring an emergency. Saying “we are declaring an emergency” to a FAA air traffic controller who is required to be fluent in English would also get the thought across that they are declaring an emergency.
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Old 10th Nov 2019, 21:05
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The FAA removed “declaring an emergency” from the AIM a few years ago but old habits are hard to break. The idea of communications is to get a thought or message to another person. “Mayday Mayday Mayday” means you are declaring an emergency. Saying “we are declaring an emergency” to a FAA air traffic controller who is required to be fluent in English would also get the thought across that they are declaring an emergency.
During a developing situation departing a major US airport, it became obvious that ATC didn’t know what a PAN was so we ended up “declaring an emergency”, which got us assistance straight away. Despite having been brought up on the formality of ICAO standard RT, when you are both native English speakers it can make sense to partly revert to a normal conversation to get details and needs across quickly. It probably won’t work as well in China...
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Old 10th Nov 2019, 21:18
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Here's what is in the 2019 edition of what used to be called the Airman's Information Manual:

Distress and Urgency Communications
A pilot who encounters a distress or urgency condition can obtain assistance simply by contacting the air traffic facility or other agency in whose area of responsibility the aircraft is operating, stating the nature of the difficulty, pilot's intentions and assistance desired. Distress and urgency communications procedures are prescribed by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), however, and have decided advantages over the informal procedure described above.


https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap6_section_3.html
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Old 11th Nov 2019, 07:40
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For goodness sake...what is the point here? A transport jet with a trim runaway or which are the correct words to "declare an emergency". With all and sundry giving their "opinion".

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Old 11th Nov 2019, 13:34
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Continuing my earlier questions …. if an electrical fault causes either a trim runaway (which can be stopped by pulling a couple of breakers) or no trim at all (breakers pop on their own) isn't the lack of a trim wheel something of an oversight ? Or do airworthiness considerations simply require two totally independent electrical trim systems fed from separate buses to satisfy the statistical unlikelihood of a double failure.

Appreciate if its FBW there may not be any (non electric) cables to attach to the pulley under the big wheel, so how do the trim wheels work on an A320 ?
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Old 11th Nov 2019, 15:59
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Originally Posted by Dave Gittins
Continuing my earlier questions …. if an electrical fault causes either a trim runaway (which can be stopped by pulling a couple of breakers) or no trim at all (breakers pop on their own) isn't the lack of a trim wheel something of an oversight ? Or do airworthiness considerations simply require two totally independent electrical trim systems fed from separate buses to satisfy the statistical unlikelihood of a double failure.

Appreciate if its FBW there may not be any (non electric) cables to attach to the pulley under the big wheel, so how do the trim wheels work on an A320 ?
actually, in a320 the trim wheel is the mechanical backup for pitch control.
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Old 11th Nov 2019, 18:54
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Originally Posted by pattern_is_full
A full 90° bank in a transport aircraft? Not on my life. Not without a full understanding of a given aircraft's inertia, control response, rudder effectiveness, W&B etc.

But - see the note in the procedure posted by barrow



Some bank will A) spill some excessive pitch-up into turning moment, and B) turn the VS and rudder into an angled "half-ruddervator" as in a fork-tailed Bonanza, allowing some minor pitch adjustment via the rudder pedals (at the cost of a slip or skip).

It will require fine judgement if one is already in a near-stall attitude, since the banked turn will increase effective weight (G forces). Conversely, being able to input partial "bottom-rudder" with the pedals may help reduce AoA.

And it's still only a stopgap until the rest of the procedure can be completed successfully and normal control regained in all axes. One would have only a bit more long-term course control than the DC-10 at Sioux City - flying in circles or steepish S-turns all the way to the runway.
The aircraft itself doesn't care if it has a high bank angle or not, as you are aware. At low speed, there can be an over banking tendency on some aircraft, think B-52/ Fairchild AFB in 1994, but otherwise the aircraft will maintain it's composure. The advanced handling training resulted in unintended consequences, where inadequate knowledge of the structural protection through certification standards met aggressive control inputs, resulting in torsion bending loads well in excess of the structures ultimate strength. Rudders are extremely effective at high AOA, and do not need large deflections if used for roll. The rudder always places a torsion load on the rear structure as it is asymmetrical to the fuselage.
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 20:51
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airbubba - "It advocated the aggressive use of rudder in upset recovery. " The videos are available on the 'net. In them Vandenburgh doesn't advocate aggressive use of the rudder.

Children of the Magenta Line - https://vimeo.com/159496346

Rudder discussion - 15:30 (ends at 16:10)
. More discussion at 29:00 about using rudder at 90 degrees while the nose is below the horizon.

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Old 12th Nov 2019, 22:05
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Originally Posted by misd-agin
airbubba - "It advocated the aggressive use of rudder in upset recovery. " The videos are available on the 'net. In them Vandenburgh doesn't advocate aggressive use of the rudder.
Well, the AAMP and the sim scenario was certainly presented in some places as promoting up to full rudder deflection in some cases of unusual attitude recovery. The NTSB correctly observed that might work in the sim but it might not be a good idea in the plane.

From the AA587 NTSB Accident Report (emphasis mine):




The canned AAMP sim scenario had the ailerons and rudder inhibited for the first 10 seconds or 50 degrees of roll so you were encouraged put in more yoke and rudder until you came out of the upset. I think the idea was that the fatal 737 upsets at COS and PIT might have been recoverable with more timely and aggressive control inputs.

Remember how cleanly the tail came off of AA587? After terrorism was ruled out I remembered how skeptical some of us were about the AAMP training. The NTSB thinks it may have been a factor in the FO's use of the rudder in this mishap.


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Old 13th Nov 2019, 17:17
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The tail failed at 2.03 (2.07?) ultimate load. The certification requirement is 2.0. It was strong enough. https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...ts/AAR0404.pdf is the NTSB AA 587 report. Pages 72-93, 121-149, 153-156 and 159-160 cover the AAMP training and recommendations. Segments from the training material is included with several references to rudder input along with "smoothly." Memory is a funny thing - page 72 says the Safety Board reviewed rudder inputs in the VMS in August 2002. I recall being told about watching those simulations by an observer. I thought it had occurred back in December 2001/January 2002. Either there were two VMS exercises or I spoke with the individual after the August 2002 tests.
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Old 14th Nov 2019, 09:33
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Originally Posted by Tobin

In the ATC recording the pilot says that they have cut out system 1 and 2, so what are they using?
Didn't they say the put it in direct law
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