Smartwings B738 over Aegean Sea on Aug 22nd 2019
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This "gentleman" from Budapest ATC should have his license pulled (if he really is what he claims to be). This is NOT information intended for public circulation, give your statement to a board of inquiry OR the states CAA and thats it.
Why is it not intended for public consumption? Does my knowledge of it hazard anything? If it is is untrue then an inquiry will dismiss it.
I understand what you mean Dudeness, but this whole incident would probably be swept under a carpet if info such as this was not brought into public. Especially since many relatives-of-friends-of-relatives are occupying seats in the Czech aviation world.
In principle, you are absolutely right. However this excuse for an airline has been around in the region for over a decade now (they used to have a Hungarian subsidiary too) previously under the Travel Service brand, and people in the profession were constantly amazed by the extent to which they were testing their limits, and even more amazed by the fact that they got away with it (both in terms of pure luck, and the regulators seemingly turning a blind eye). Most of the incidents were brushed under the carpet, and I'm sure the whistleblower at BUD ATC had plenty of experience with them. While the public release of this information is certainly not commendable, it likely was a last resort action in face of a growing frustration that they can get away with anything.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To say it CLEARLY: I would not have trucked on that long with one donk under the circumstances that we know at this point, BUT they need to judged fairly. And that is NOT via internet etcetc.
Having some insider information on the outfit being the subject of this thread, I am a bit hesitant to agree in full. In principle, you are absolutely right. However this excuse for an airline has been around in the region for over a decade now (they used to have a Hungarian subsidiary too) previously under the Travel Service brand, and people in the profession were constantly amazed by the extent to whivh they were testing their limits, and even more amazed by the fact that they got away with it (both in terms of pure luck, and the regulators seemingly turning a blind eye). Most of the incidents were brushed under the carpet, and I'm sure the whistleblower at BUD ATC had plenty of experience with them. While the public release of this information is certainly not commendable, it likely was a last resort action in face of a growing frustration that they can get away with anything.
Remember every dodgy operator out there puts pressure on the the ones that do it right to further cut costs, training, maintenance and customer service. We are in a race to the bottom on this industry and we may have seen an example of why this is so.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: FR
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"If" indeed this airline has a history of disregarding safety then one can also ask why it takes (took?) so long for this to stop? Is not anyone with knowledge of what's going on, at least morally obliged to do whatever it takes, including informing the public?
Having some insider information on the outfit being the subject of this thread, I am a bit hesitant to agree in full. In principle, you are absolutely right. However this excuse for an airline has been around in the region for over a decade now (they used to have a Hungarian subsidiary too) previously under the Travel Service brand, and people in the profession were constantly amazed by the extent to which they were testing their limits, and even more amazed by the fact that they got away with it (both in terms of pure luck, and the regulators seemingly turning a blind eye). Most of the incidents were brushed under the carpet, and I'm sure the whistleblower at BUD ATC had plenty of experience with them. While the public release of this information is certainly not commendable, it likely was a last resort action in face of a growing frustration that they can get away with anything.
It's part of essentially the only major airline group in the Czech Republic. Possibility of regulatory capture?
Thread Starter
The Hungarian ATC person made a seemingly reasonable and informed submission. I've had reason to comment on poor aviation safety in my career too. Do you really think safety is maintained by aviation authority audits of paperwork and a few information bulletins? Sometimes you have to call out bad practice for what it is.
Remember every dodgy operator out there puts pressure on the the ones that do it right to further cut costs, training, maintenance and customer service. We are in a race to the bottom on this industry and we may have seen an example of why this is so.
Remember every dodgy operator out there puts pressure on the the ones that do it right to further cut costs, training, maintenance and customer service. We are in a race to the bottom on this industry and we may have seen an example of why this is so.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Having a margarita on the beach
Posts: 2,423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Hungarian ATC person made a seemingly reasonable and informed submission. I've had reason to comment on poor aviation safety in my career too. Do you really think safety is maintained by aviation authority audits of paperwork and a few information bulletins? Sometimes you have to call out bad practice for what it is.
Remember every dodgy operator out there puts pressure on the the ones that do it right to further cut costs, training, maintenance and customer service. We are in a race to the bottom on this industry and we may have seen an example of why this is so.
Remember every dodgy operator out there puts pressure on the the ones that do it right to further cut costs, training, maintenance and customer service. We are in a race to the bottom on this industry and we may have seen an example of why this is so.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BUT, there is a reason for protocol to follow and whilst you might know a thing or two about the "outfit" in question, I will still maintain that I´d rather have an inquiry than a witch hunt. Make an entry in the log, pull the tapes, do whatever it takes and let the authorities do their job. IF "they" fail to do so, then make it public via the press. Public outrage is produced very easily these days, thanks to "social media", ask yourself, does that make anything better ? Do we really want to go back to the dark ages and put every suspect into the pillory on the market square ?
Thanks all,
We all know what has to be done. Inquiry, authorities doing their thing, etc. Let’s just wait and see.
The point is, that it takes someone (like the hungarian ATCO and Simon AvHerald) to bring it into the open.
There is no way that anyone can swipe anything under any carpet anymore. Good.
We all know what has to be done. Inquiry, authorities doing their thing, etc. Let’s just wait and see.
The point is, that it takes someone (like the hungarian ATCO and Simon AvHerald) to bring it into the open.
There is no way that anyone can swipe anything under any carpet anymore. Good.
So not sure why people keep bringing up ETOPS, all ETOPS does is give youy bigger planning circles for your enroute deviation options. On any twin, once an engine stops you land ASAP. The fact that your twin might have been certified to fly SE on a leg from Guam to Hawaii, does not mean you can overfly a suitable airport when flying from Greece to Prague REGARDLESS of any ETOPS certification.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Under the radar, over the rainbow
Posts: 788
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"After the incident, one name was repeatedly cited in [airline] industry circles and in the Czech media: Pavel Vesely. [Vesely] is the Director Flight Operation of the airline, suggesting that the term 'chief pilot,' which the [Smartwings] spokeswoman has [provided?] to Czech media, is accurate."
There are probably better translators of German here, but I checked my version with a couple of online translation sites and it seems pretty close.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: in the barrel
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Austrian Wings certainly thinks so. The fifth paragraph of the cited article translates, more or less, to:
"After the incident, one name was repeatedly cited in [airline] industry circles and in the Czech media: Pavel Vesely. [Vesely] is the Director Flight Operation of the airline, suggesting that the term 'chief pilot,' which the [Smartwings] spokeswoman has [provided?] to Czech media, is accurate."
There are probably better translators of German here, but I checked my version with a couple of online translation sites and it seems pretty close.
"After the incident, one name was repeatedly cited in [airline] industry circles and in the Czech media: Pavel Vesely. [Vesely] is the Director Flight Operation of the airline, suggesting that the term 'chief pilot,' which the [Smartwings] spokeswoman has [provided?] to Czech media, is accurate."
There are probably better translators of German here, but I checked my version with a couple of online translation sites and it seems pretty close.
Your translation is spot on otherwise.
Translation of the Austrian Wings article. My schoolboy German plus Google, but I think this is the sense of it.
Smartwings incident: was chief pilot in the cockpit?
In the case of that Smartwings flight, whose crew flew two and a half hours with only one engine to the destination airport, there is a new suspicion.
As reported, an engine failure occurred on August 22, 2019 on the Smartwings flight from Samos to Prague. But instead of following the international regulations for such an incident, landing on the nearest suitable for a Boeing 737-800 airport, the pilots continued the flight almost two and a half hours with only one working engine to the destination airport Prague. Meanwhile, the Czech authorities investigate against the airline and the crew.
Contrary to what has been said by the Czech media, a smartwings spokeswoman said that "there was no danger", "the chief pilot was very experienced," and the crew "had the situation under control."
However, the international practices for the operation of twin-engine aircraft expose the statement of the spokeswoman as a mere protection claim. Because in the case of twin-engined aircraft, in the event of the failure of an engine in commercial flight operations, the air traffic control must always be informed and the nearest airport must be approached. Some airlines even force their pilots to declare an emergency (Mayday call).
Shortly after the incident, a name was repeatedly quoted in industry circles and in the Czech media: Pavel Vesely. This is the Director Flight Operation of the airline concerned, which would make the wording "Chief Pilot", which the spokeswoman has already used to the Czech media, correct.
"Any engine failure on a twin-engined aircraft is a serious loss of redundancy and can quickly lead to further problems, and Airmanship - the healthy aviator common sense - would always suggest a timely landing at the nearest suitable aerodrome Passengers in this case, nothing happened, this is an incident with a very bad aftertaste. "An A320 training captain who spoke to Austrian Wings
Several mail requests to the Smartwings press office and to Pavel Vesely himself, whether he was actually the pilot of the flight in question, remained unanswered until now. If Vesely was the pilot in command, that would raise general questions about the safety culture within the company.
“In our view, the incident is not a trivial matter and we want to investigate what the crew is doing because we do not think it's standard."Vítězslav Hezký, spokesman for the CZ aviation authority to the Czech media
Vesely also left an inquiry unanswered on how he, as Director Flight Operation, judged the crew's behavior if he had not been the pilot himself. Likewise, he could not or did not want to answer the question of what consequences it had for the captain and first officer.
Smartwings incident: was chief pilot in the cockpit?
In the case of that Smartwings flight, whose crew flew two and a half hours with only one engine to the destination airport, there is a new suspicion.
As reported, an engine failure occurred on August 22, 2019 on the Smartwings flight from Samos to Prague. But instead of following the international regulations for such an incident, landing on the nearest suitable for a Boeing 737-800 airport, the pilots continued the flight almost two and a half hours with only one working engine to the destination airport Prague. Meanwhile, the Czech authorities investigate against the airline and the crew.
Contrary to what has been said by the Czech media, a smartwings spokeswoman said that "there was no danger", "the chief pilot was very experienced," and the crew "had the situation under control."
However, the international practices for the operation of twin-engine aircraft expose the statement of the spokeswoman as a mere protection claim. Because in the case of twin-engined aircraft, in the event of the failure of an engine in commercial flight operations, the air traffic control must always be informed and the nearest airport must be approached. Some airlines even force their pilots to declare an emergency (Mayday call).
Shortly after the incident, a name was repeatedly quoted in industry circles and in the Czech media: Pavel Vesely. This is the Director Flight Operation of the airline concerned, which would make the wording "Chief Pilot", which the spokeswoman has already used to the Czech media, correct.
"Any engine failure on a twin-engined aircraft is a serious loss of redundancy and can quickly lead to further problems, and Airmanship - the healthy aviator common sense - would always suggest a timely landing at the nearest suitable aerodrome Passengers in this case, nothing happened, this is an incident with a very bad aftertaste. "An A320 training captain who spoke to Austrian Wings
Several mail requests to the Smartwings press office and to Pavel Vesely himself, whether he was actually the pilot of the flight in question, remained unanswered until now. If Vesely was the pilot in command, that would raise general questions about the safety culture within the company.
“In our view, the incident is not a trivial matter and we want to investigate what the crew is doing because we do not think it's standard."Vítězslav Hezký, spokesman for the CZ aviation authority to the Czech media
Vesely also left an inquiry unanswered on how he, as Director Flight Operation, judged the crew's behavior if he had not been the pilot himself. Likewise, he could not or did not want to answer the question of what consequences it had for the captain and first officer.
.........Contrary to what has been said by the Czech media, a smartwings spokeswoman said that "there was no danger", "the chief pilot was very experienced," and the crew "had the situation under control.".......
Could it be that the DFO was covering up that cost cutting - that he would be privy to - had eaten too far into maintenance procedures, or that his airline could not afford the cost of a diversion and EU261 etc?
* e.g. contaminated fuel.