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Smartwings B738 over Aegean Sea on Aug 22nd 2019

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Smartwings B738 over Aegean Sea on Aug 22nd 2019

Old 26th Aug 2019, 14:56
  #61 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
The CPT was the Director of Flight Ops.
Do you have a reliable source for that?
Thx
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Old 26th Aug 2019, 15:36
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gearlever View Post
Do you have a reliable source for that?
Thx
This is a rumour network. But sure, here's a hint: how does ATC flt.pln PIC name crosschecked against company docs sounds like?
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 08:38
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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This "gentleman" from Budapest ATC should have his license pulled (if he really is what he claims to be). This is NOT information intended for public circulation, give your statement to a board of inquiry OR the states CAA and thats it.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 08:46
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
This "gentleman" from Budapest ATC should have his license pulled (if he really is what he claims to be). This is NOT information intended for public circulation, give your statement to a board of inquiry OR the states CAA and thats it.
Why is it not intended for public consumption? Does my knowledge of it hazard anything? If it is is untrue then an inquiry will dismiss it.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 08:46
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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I understand what you mean Dudeness, but this whole incident would probably be swept under a carpet if info such as this was not brought into public. Especially since many relatives-of-friends-of-relatives are occupying seats in the Czech aviation world.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 08:53
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
This is NOT information intended for public circulation, give your statement to a board of inquiry OR the states CAA and thats it.
Having some insider information on the outfit being the subject of this thread, I am a bit hesitant to agree in full.

In principle, you are absolutely right. However this excuse for an airline has been around in the region for over a decade now (they used to have a Hungarian subsidiary too) previously under the Travel Service brand, and people in the profession were constantly amazed by the extent to which they were testing their limits, and even more amazed by the fact that they got away with it (both in terms of pure luck, and the regulators seemingly turning a blind eye). Most of the incidents were brushed under the carpet, and I'm sure the whistleblower at BUD ATC had plenty of experience with them. While the public release of this information is certainly not commendable, it likely was a last resort action in face of a growing frustration that they can get away with anything.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 09:04
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fox niner View Post
I understand what you mean Dudeness, but this whole incident would probably be swept under a carpet if info such as this was not brought into public. Especially since many relatives-of-friends-of-relatives are occupying seats in the Czech aviation world.
Wether or not it would be swept und what carpet, I don´t know. I have no idea of the inner workings of the Czech CAA. Nevertheless, I maintain that I would not want a pre - judgement via Avherald, PPRuNe and the likes fueled by info such as this. In no way I intend to defend the actions of this crew (or captain). Put that stuff where it belongs. The reaction on here and elsewere speak for themselves "pull the licenses of these clowns" for example at a time were we don´t know any thing but rumours and nothing of what happened inside the cockpit. Rethink to the infamous A310, the F/O tried his best to get the "old man" to land and could not convince him - where I said F/O I would be liked to be burned by the witch hunters on here and Avherald.

To say it CLEARLY: I would not have trucked on that long with one donk under the circumstances that we know at this point, BUT they need to judged fairly. And that is NOT via internet etcetc.

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Old 27th Aug 2019, 09:06
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrasz View Post
Having some insider information on the outfit being the subject of this thread, I am a bit hesitant to agree in full. In principle, you are absolutely right. However this excuse for an airline has been around in the region for over a decade now (they used to have a Hungarian subsidiary too) previously under the Travel Service brand, and people in the profession were constantly amazed by the extent to whivh they were testing their limits, and even more amazed by the fact that they got away with it (both in terms of pure luck, and the regulators seemingly turning a blind eye). Most of the incidents were brushed under the carpet, and I'm sure the whistleblower at BUD ATC had plenty of experience with them. While the public release of this information is certainly not commendable, it likely was a last resort action in face of a growing frustration that they can get away with anything.
The Hungarian ATC person made a seemingly reasonable and informed submission. I've had reason to comment on poor aviation safety in my career too. Do you really think safety is maintained by aviation authority audits of paperwork and a few information bulletins? Sometimes you have to call out bad practice for what it is.

Remember every dodgy operator out there puts pressure on the the ones that do it right to further cut costs, training, maintenance and customer service. We are in a race to the bottom on this industry and we may have seen an example of why this is so.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 09:36
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"If" indeed this airline has a history of disregarding safety then one can also ask why it takes (took?) so long for this to stop? Is not anyone with knowledge of what's going on, at least morally obliged to do whatever it takes, including informing the public?
Originally Posted by andrasz View Post
Having some insider information on the outfit being the subject of this thread, I am a bit hesitant to agree in full. In principle, you are absolutely right. However this excuse for an airline has been around in the region for over a decade now (they used to have a Hungarian subsidiary too) previously under the Travel Service brand, and people in the profession were constantly amazed by the extent to which they were testing their limits, and even more amazed by the fact that they got away with it (both in terms of pure luck, and the regulators seemingly turning a blind eye). Most of the incidents were brushed under the carpet, and I'm sure the whistleblower at BUD ATC had plenty of experience with them. While the public release of this information is certainly not commendable, it likely was a last resort action in face of a growing frustration that they can get away with anything.
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 09:58
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax2908 View Post
"If" indeed this airline has a history of disregarding safety then one can also ask why it takes (took?) so long for this to stop? Is not anyone with knowledge of what's going on, at least morally obliged to do whatever it takes, including informing the public?
It's part of essentially the only major airline group in the Czech Republic. Possibility of regulatory capture?
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 10:03
  #71 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Consol View Post
The Hungarian ATC person made a seemingly reasonable and informed submission. I've had reason to comment on poor aviation safety in my career too. Do you really think safety is maintained by aviation authority audits of paperwork and a few information bulletins? Sometimes you have to call out bad practice for what it is.

Remember every dodgy operator out there puts pressure on the the ones that do it right to further cut costs, training, maintenance and customer service. We are in a race to the bottom on this industry and we may have seen an example of why this is so.
Thx Consol, you nailed it
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 10:22
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Consol View Post
The Hungarian ATC person made a seemingly reasonable and informed submission. I've had reason to comment on poor aviation safety in my career too. Do you really think safety is maintained by aviation authority audits of paperwork and a few information bulletins? Sometimes you have to call out bad practice for what it is.

Remember every dodgy operator out there puts pressure on the the ones that do it right to further cut costs, training, maintenance and customer service. We are in a race to the bottom on this industry and we may have seen an example of why this is so.
Great post !
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 11:17
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Consol View Post
Remember every dodgy operator out there puts pressure on the the ones that do it right to further cut costs, training, maintenance and customer service. We are in a race to the bottom on this industry and we may have seen an example of why this is so.
Absolutely. That has always been the case and I suspect it will never really stop.

BUT, there is a reason for protocol to follow and whilst you might know a thing or two about the "outfit" in question, I will still maintain that I´d rather have an inquiry than a witch hunt. Make an entry in the log, pull the tapes, do whatever it takes and let the authorities do their job. IF "they" fail to do so, then make it public via the press. Public outrage is produced very easily these days, thanks to "social media", ask yourself, does that make anything better ? Do we really want to go back to the dark ages and put every suspect into the pillory on the market square ?
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Old 27th Aug 2019, 20:29
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks all,

We all know what has to be done. Inquiry, authorities doing their thing, etc. Let’s just wait and see.
The point is, that it takes someone (like the hungarian ATCO and Simon AvHerald) to bring it into the open.
There is no way that anyone can swipe anything under any carpet anymore. Good.
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 00:59
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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So not sure why people keep bringing up ETOPS, all ETOPS does is give youy bigger planning circles for your enroute deviation options. On any twin, once an engine stops you land ASAP. The fact that your twin might have been certified to fly SE on a leg from Guam to Hawaii, does not mean you can overfly a suitable airport when flying from Greece to Prague REGARDLESS of any ETOPS certification.
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 10:03
  #76 (permalink)  
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Was the Flight Operations Director PIC?
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 15:08
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gearlever View Post
Austrian Wings certainly thinks so. The fifth paragraph of the cited article translates, more or less, to:

"After the incident, one name was repeatedly cited in [airline] industry circles and in the Czech media: Pavel Vesely. [Vesely] is the Director Flight Operation of the airline, suggesting that the term 'chief pilot,' which the [Smartwings] spokeswoman has [provided?] to Czech media, is accurate."

There are probably better translators of German here, but I checked my version with a couple of online translation sites and it seems pretty close.
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 21:00
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OldnGrounded View Post
Austrian Wings certainly thinks so. The fifth paragraph of the cited article translates, more or less, to:

"After the incident, one name was repeatedly cited in [airline] industry circles and in the Czech media: Pavel Vesely. [Vesely] is the Director Flight Operation of the airline, suggesting that the term 'chief pilot,' which the [Smartwings] spokeswoman has [provided?] to Czech media, is accurate."

There are probably better translators of German here, but I checked my version with a couple of online translation sites and it seems pretty close.
„... which the (Smartwings) spokeswoman used when talking to Czech media, is accurate.“

Your translation is spot on otherwise.

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Old 29th Aug 2019, 08:35
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Translation of the Austrian Wings article. My schoolboy German plus Google, but I think this is the sense of it.

Smartwings incident: was chief pilot in the cockpit?

In the case of that Smartwings flight, whose crew flew two and a half hours with only one engine to the destination airport, there is a new suspicion.


As reported, an engine failure occurred on August 22, 2019 on the Smartwings flight from Samos to Prague. But instead of following the international regulations for such an incident, landing on the nearest suitable for a Boeing 737-800 airport, the pilots continued the flight almost two and a half hours with only one working engine to the destination airport Prague. Meanwhile, the Czech authorities investigate against the airline and the crew.


Contrary to what has been said by the Czech media, a smartwings spokeswoman said that "there was no danger", "the chief pilot was very experienced," and the crew "had the situation under control."


However, the international practices for the operation of twin-engine aircraft expose the statement of the spokeswoman as a mere protection claim. Because in the case of twin-engined aircraft, in the event of the failure of an engine in commercial flight operations, the air traffic control must always be informed and the nearest airport must be approached. Some airlines even force their pilots to declare an emergency (Mayday call).


Shortly after the incident, a name was repeatedly quoted in industry circles and in the Czech media: Pavel Vesely. This is the Director Flight Operation of the airline concerned, which would make the wording "Chief Pilot", which the spokeswoman has already used to the Czech media, correct.


"Any engine failure on a twin-engined aircraft is a serious loss of redundancy and can quickly lead to further problems, and Airmanship - the healthy aviator common sense - would always suggest a timely landing at the nearest suitable aerodrome Passengers in this case, nothing happened, this is an incident with a very bad aftertaste. "An A320 training captain who spoke to Austrian Wings


Several mail requests to the Smartwings press office and to Pavel Vesely himself, whether he was actually the pilot of the flight in question, remained unanswered until now. If Vesely was the pilot in command, that would raise general questions about the safety culture within the company.


“In our view, the incident is not a trivial matter and we want to investigate what the crew is doing because we do not think it's standard."Vítězslav Hezký, spokesman for the CZ aviation authority to the Czech media


Vesely also left an inquiry unanswered on how he, as Director Flight Operation, judged the crew's behavior if he had not been the pilot himself. Likewise, he could not or did not want to answer the question of what consequences it had for the captain and first officer.
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 10:11
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.........Contrary to what has been said by the Czech media, a smartwings spokeswoman said that "there was no danger", "the chief pilot was very experienced," and the crew "had the situation under control.".......
Very experienced ?? He would need to have been bloody clairvoyant in order to know that the other engine was not going to fail*, and that it was safe to continue flying beyond the nearest suitable runway.

Could it be that the DFO was covering up that cost cutting - that he would be privy to - had eaten too far into maintenance procedures, or that his airline could not afford the cost of a diversion and EU261 etc?

* e.g. contaminated fuel.
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