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U.S grounds ALL 737 Max

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U.S grounds ALL 737 Max

Old 14th Mar 2019, 14:54
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Safetypee, no doubt I don't have it. Graphical quality is low.

Online for hours on a.net now, don't know where it comes from, how long it will remain online.

https://i.imgur.com/nlisopA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/HrNWlSQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/PrN5CPO.jpg
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 15:08
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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There are some decent, high-resolution copies of those FDR readouts in the Lion Air thread.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 15:14
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Salute Safety !
Can't find the complete data traces from the Indonesian safety folks that released a few of the data plots, including the preveious flight.
Remember that the MCAS alternates AoA data probes with each cycle, so the alt/leading edge flap and other things may bot have been using the AoA probe that was 20 degrees higher than the other one.
However, that plot show classic MCAS operation with a bogus high AoA. It also shows the stick shaker going off briefly when the initil MCAS nose down trim kicks in and the plane loses a few hundred feet in a few seconds, back stick forces high and flaps put down again - bet they had enough of a reduced AoA /andor the flap position was a factor for the shaker then, but soon the shaker came back and remained until the end.
This should have the data plots and in pdf so you can zoom in.
KNKT Beberkan Data FDR Lion Air PK-LQP di DPR

Gums sends...

Last edited by gums; 14th Mar 2019 at 15:16. Reason: added verbiage
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 15:34
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Stuff is coming out.

In an appearance on CNBC in December, Muilenburg was asked whether the company was doing enough to ensure pilots were properly trained after the October crash.

Muilenburg said that the company's bulletin on the software helped in "directing pilots and airlines to these existing procedures" and that Boeing was "taking a look at that to make sure all the appropriate training is in place and that the communications with our customers are there."

"It's very, very important to us, but I will say bottom line here, very important, is that the Max 737 is safe," he said.
Muilenburg's comments came about a week after the meetings in Texas and Reno, when pilots said they heard similar promises.

Sitting around pullout tables in leather-backed chairs, Tajer said, some of the company's top engineers were apologetic.
"We said 'shame on you.' They said, 'I know.' "
https://www.nola.com/business/2019/0...-software.html
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 17:50
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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So 24 hours after the US grounding, why are there still AA max's still flying around? There are 4 at the moment.
I don't get it.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 17:55
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WindSheer View Post
So 24 hours after the US grounding, why are there still AA max's still flying around? There are 4 at the moment.
I don't get it.
Read the terms of the restriction, posted earlier.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 18:04
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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If they've been grounded why are they still flying? These can't all be ferry flights can they?
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 18:14
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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This has been doing the rounds too.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 23:32
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Plane Watcher View Post
If they've been grounded why are they still flying? These can't all be ferry flights can they?
They are all ferry flights. The orders from FAA and Transport Canada allowed revenue flights to continue to their destination. This left planes stranded at outstations across the continental US, Canada, Hawaii, and the Caribbean. The order allows ferry flights back to maintenance base(s). In Europe and Asia, the pattern was more haphazard as some countries completely closed their airspace, others allowed continuation to destination, and this was rolled out over a few days semi-randomly. Some flights completed or diverted (requiring a recovery ferry flight) while others returned to their departure airport.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 23:37
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by kenish View Post
They are all ferry flights.
Indeed so.

The mods have, quite understandably, started deleting the posts that have been appearing today querying 737 Max aircraft spotted on the flight trackers.

Does anyone seriously believe that airlines would defy the restrictions and carry on flying passengers ? Time to nail this one on the head.

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Old 15th Mar 2019, 04:39
  #31 (permalink)  
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Exclamation FOUND JACKSCREW ETHOPIA

FOUND JACKSCREW . . .

FROM SEATTLE TIMES
Investigators find new clue in wreckage of Ethiopian Airlines flight as Boeing continues production of its 737 MAX and works on software patch to get planes back in the air.
Investigators on the ground near the crash site of the Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX found the plane’s jackscrew, a part that moves the horizontal tail of the aircraft, and it indicates that the tail was in an unusual position, according to an aviation safety consultant briefed on the findings.The consultant, John Cox, chief executive of Safety Operating Systems and formerly the top safety official for the Air Line Pilots Association, said that Boeing’s new flight control system on the MAX — implicated in the preliminary investigation into the earlier crash of a Lion Air jet in Indonesia — is one of several possible systems that could explain the unusual deflection in the horizontal tail, a control surface that swivels to pitch the plane’s nose up or down. . . .
Goes on but under paywall so posting link may not work

https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...s-boeings-fix/

but here is print of plots released
Attached Files
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 04:46
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Here's the problem at Boeing in their own words! (2 videos)

Boeing: Diversity and Inclusion at Boeing

Instead of hiring the best people for the job they're going for "Diversity" and 'Equality" (of outcome).

First thing they should do is put a stop to this PC nonsense - then fire those responsible for these Policies imho.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 04:53
  #33 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Eric Janson View Post
Here's the problem at Boeing in their own words! (2 videos)

Boeing: Diversity and Inclusion at Boeing

Instead of hiring the best people for the job they're going for "Diversity" and 'Equality" (of outcome).

First thing they should do is put a stop to this PC nonsense - then fire those responsible for these Policies imho.
but but the elite schools also push diversity over meritocracy at a cost . ....
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 04:54
  #34 (permalink)  
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JT610 DFDR

Wow.

Expected to see activity, but the poor driver is getting RSI on the trim system there. The last minute is just desperately sad to see, however it sure looks like the pilot was cognitively saturated in the event, he was constantly on the trim fighting against the stab augment system, MCAS, but didn't get to the point of isolating the system with the stab cutout on the throttle quadrant.

1. Hidden (not so much...) in the chart there is AND motion automatically occurring with the flaps extended, from 23:22:59 through to 23:24:44, with the AP off the whole time. WTF

2.
The AOA probe values show a constant DC offset between L & R, that is not consistent with a AOA failure. The chart may have the indices for the Left and right offset for clarity, but they don't indicate a signal error between the two, there is more or less a constant DC difference between the two values. There is no other way as far as I can recall from my own B735 AMM, that you can get a constant variation between the output, from an faulty vane, it will be jammed, or otherwise inoperative but it doesn't have a constant offset between the two systems. If there is no offset of the indices, then the zero is wrong on one of the vanes. If they are offset, then the issue is not from the AOA vane.

What work was done on the aircraft prior to despatch on the AOA system?

For current NG Max drivers, is STS still a mode in manual flight on these aircraft? I am current on classics, not the later variants.

Last edited by fdr; 15th Mar 2019 at 06:50. Reason: chart offset display? qry STS functionality
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 06:03
  #35 (permalink)  
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2. The AOA probe values show a constant DC offset between L & R, that is not consistent with a AOA failure, that looks horribly like an installation error. There is no other way as far as I can recall from my own B735 AMM, that you can get a constant variation between the output, from an faulty vane, it will be jammed, or otherwise inoperative but it doesn't have a constant offset between the two systems.

What work was done on the aircraft prior to despatch on the AOA system?
very early in the lionair thread in PPRuNe , the issue of installation error was discussed- thrashed and a few diagrams of hole arrangements a to avoid improper install were dug up/published here . supposedly arranged to avoid such a problem of ' clocking'- since the same unit is used left and right.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 07:19
  #36 (permalink)  
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It appears that the Max8 still has the STS system incorporated, which is the short period automatic trim at the latter stage of flap retraction. The report states the previous flight was undertaken immediately after a change of the AOA sensor. The indices of the charting do appear to be the same for L and R AOA, so there was an offset at all times when the vane was responding to flow. That looks like an installation issue, the zero is wrong on the L AOA, otherwise the function appears normal.

The prior flight responded correctly to the use of the cutout switches, and the crew at least did use the trim wheel for the rest of the flight, even if there was a continuous stall warning going on in the background. Not a good way to fly.

The MCAS is still a questionable system architecture but the human factor in the handling of this event looks unfortunate. The DFDR for ET302 will be interesting to look at ASAP, as the Max8 may be only part of the problem.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 07:47
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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The bottom line is that Boeing were allowed to certificate an aircraft with unacceptable longitudinal stability with a band-aid to get around loss of pitch authority to counteract the crazy positioning of the engines. No-one but an accountant would design an aircraft that looks like a 737max. The stubby landing gear and low cargo door sills on 737 would not be possible if the engines were positioned such that they didnít contribute to divergent stall behavior.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 07:49
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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They say those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

we should all re visit the Dhavilland Comet saga. The parallels are truly there between the DH106 and Boeing 737 Max
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 09:51
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dhavillandpilot View Post
They say those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

we should all re visit the Dhavilland Comet saga. The parallels are truly there between the DH106 and Boeing 737 Max
Oh I disagree totally. The Comet was a trailblazer which pushed the envelope and revealed issues that changed how aircraft were designed. It later matured into a safe, popular airliner.

The Max is completely the opposite, it has traded 50 years of 737 maturity and reliability** for a slapdash money-making opportunity. Nothing that the Max investigations have uncovered is unknown or novel for aerodynamic or structural design; it's purely the result of hackish design due to beancounting. It's the McDonnell Philosophy in action; get something out the door to beat the rival.

The episode I think it resembles more closely is the DC-10, rushed under pressure to get into the air before the more rationally-designed TriStar. And look what that did to Douglas' reputation.

** Classic rudder actuator issues noted
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 11:28
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ivor toolbox View Post
And finally, don't believe Flight Radar, they are not infallible, they get 737-800NG and 737-8Max mixed up, as do a lot of spotters.
And, to be fair, the FAA:



(later corrected)
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