Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Atlas Air 767 down/Texas

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Atlas Air 767 down/Texas

Old 3rd Apr 2019, 00:56
  #781 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,193
Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
Will Atlas 3591 turn out to be yet another widebody freighter loss due to 'human factors'? Is a higher accident rate acceptable for cargo planes since the crashes cause 'no significant loss of life'?
Packages don't sue nor do they have grieving families and friends.
aterpster is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 01:14
  #782 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 127
Hiring

Originally Posted by 4runner View Post
The “thump” was the Jumpseater bouncing off the ceiling. The FO had a history of doing this. He was terminated from a previous airline according to a very reliable source. HR is in charge of all pilot hiring at atlas. They hit -4 g’s.
I can speak with personal experience about the hiring process at Atlas. The HR folks are very efficient and present in most of the Interview stages; but they use a number of retired and line pilots in the process; and they are highly experienced and very involved. I cannot imagine Atlas HR overruling a pilots' concerns about a candidates capabilities. The interview process there is very well run indeed.
neilki is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 03:57
  #783 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Zone of Alienation
Age: 74
Posts: 327
Man, that’s an insanely naïve viewpoint. In general, HR bring the candidates to interview. And no one really knows how hard up some of these companies really are. There is tremendous pressure to get meat into seats these days at various companies, IMO.
FIRESYSOK is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 08:25
  #784 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 101
Right after the ethnicity of the first officer became public... all the rumors started blaming him.
Not only his poor skills that are verified by a RELIABLE source.
Also the blaming of minorities being forced into the cockpit by HR departments because of "diversity"
The racist comments are across many aviation sites.
This attitude is not being addressed and is never going to get better until these people are the ones finding themselves on the street and have no job offers AND are not welcome on websites either.
413X3 is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 08:54
  #785 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Another Planet.
Posts: 548
HR rules, k o?

Originally Posted by Chiefttp View Post
Airbubba,
there is a common thread in your list of accidents. HR departments have taken over Pilot hiring from the Pilots! A friend at UPS was turned down at United because he didn’t perform well on some table top sim evaluation. He was an F-14 Tomcat Pilot in the Navy! The Hogan test has prevented many highly qualified pilots from pursuing a position at many other airlines as well.
As far as the quality of freight pilots vice pax..the two highest paid pilot groups in the US are Fed Ex and UPS by far, and if you look at retirement benefits it’s not even in the same galaxy, so I’m pretty sure at least UPS and FedEx have their pick of the litter over the last few years.
I wonder how many competent 73NG captains were rejected by Jet2 HR department due to the Compass Test farce?

I know of at least several ex-XL candidates who were OK'd by pilot interviewers but jettisoned by this totally unsuitable selection tool.

And yes, I was one and following the shabby treatment of a colleague who did get employed by them I'm glad the fickle finger of fate moved me in another direction!
BARKINGMAD is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 09:18
  #786 (permalink)  

I Have Control
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Up North
Posts: 1,183
HR-driven pilot selection is a mistake. The numpties at BA prove this time after time, but BA is not alone.

Apart from the inadequacies of HR people in understanding the requirements of the pilot profession, they in part select on a quota basis as regards gender, race, and other parameters.

I recall an experienced A320/321 SFO who was LHR-based being turned down at interview by BA as "not enthusiastic enough about joining BA". (His career went well nevertheless)
RoyHudd is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 10:56
  #787 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Been around the block
Posts: 471
Originally Posted by neilki View Post
I can speak with personal experience about the hiring process at Atlas. The HR folks are very efficient and present in most of the Interview stages; but they use a number of retired and line pilots in the process; and they are highly experienced and very involved. I cannot imagine Atlas HR overruling a pilots' concerns about a candidates capabilities. The interview process there is very well run indeed.
I can. I can do it from experience and I can validate the current hiring protocol and procedure. Whether through personal experience, or colleagues. This is a known factor at atlas and the teamsters union has addressed the hiring issue repeatedly. Now there’s a hole in the swamp and three dead aviators. I don’t believe in coincidences. Someone should answer for Their decisions. Oh wait, this is corporate America. No one is responsible, but all the peons are accountable.
4runner is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 11:12
  #788 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Been around the block
Posts: 471
Originally Posted by 413X3 View Post
Right after the ethnicity of the first officer became public... all the rumors started blaming him.
Not only his poor skills that are verified by a RELIABLE source.
Also the blaming of minorities being forced into the cockpit by HR departments because of "diversity"
The racist comments are across many aviation sites.
This attitude is not being addressed and is never going to get better until these people are the ones finding themselves on the street and have no job offers AND are not welcome on websites either.
its called a PRIA check. It stands for Pilots Records Inprovement Act. Several red flags exist on someone’s check that would have traditionally disqualified them from being hired, were it not for HR intervention or decisions. Other red flags related to the behavior and attitude of the individual in training are there. To be even more specific, red flags exist during stall recovery training with a certain individual. Furthermore, a certain individual may have mistaken the incident to be a stall and applied full nose down elevator. Red flags abound!!!
4runner is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 13:21
  #789 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Been around the block
Posts: 471
Originally Posted by AviatorDave View Post


A hstory of doing what exactly? Losing orientation and messing up beyond acceptable level or of being a jerk and pushing the column to make jumpseaters hit the ceiling?
had a history of full forward input on stall recovery. This was mistaken as a stall they think.
4runner is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 13:37
  #790 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Posts: 3,708
high altitude one may in fact have to input full forward controls to break the AOA, but most certainly not down where they were
ironbutt57 is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 13:39
  #791 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Been around the block
Posts: 471
Originally Posted by FIRESYSOK View Post
Man, that’s an insanely naïve viewpoint. In general, HR bring the candidates to interview. And no one really knows how hard up some of these companies really are. There is tremendous pressure to get meat into seats these days at various companies, IMO.
HR brings AND selects candidates. At a lot of airlines, the pilot panels are of limited input or consequence in the hiring procedure. Being “hard up” and needing “meat in the seat” are not a valid excuse for hiring and keeping unsuitable candidates. This is especially true as lives are literally at stake. This is why HR pilot selection needs to stop.
4runner is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 13:57
  #792 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 64° 7' 41N 21° 49' 39W
Posts: 2
First guess was incorrectly presumed to be a Stall, followed by bizarre recovery. Tragic, incredibly sad. It is all about the training. Assembly line training using FO’s with only a few individuals actually capable of insightful training is now industry standard.

Any commentary segueing into talk of ethnicity or slamming of HR is precisely the issue with all that is wrong with the industry. Legacy carriers try to give every applicant a shot. They understand that bias is real. They have fairly balanced diverse workforce’s for decades. If reputation is true, Atlas has not until recently. On the street they have long been known as white man’s world. Expat’s tell tales of racism, sexism always involving specific CP & DO. Competent minority pilots want nothing to do with the place.

Sounds like HR had to step in when incidents of bias, assaults, bigotry got out of hand.
That is logical enough conclusion. Also the Union clearly has a role in identifying bias issues. They should just get rid of the bad apples in top management that tolerate this conduct and fix the training.
If this FO had a history of misidentifying stalls, training failed him badly.
This certainly wouldnt be the first time on the cheap training would be at fault.

Last edited by Stby4Higher; 3rd Apr 2019 at 14:36.
Stby4Higher is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 14:27
  #793 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Age: 74
Posts: 1,045
How hard can it be to identify a stall ?
AD shows nose high
Airspeed decaying
Buffet
ASI unwinding
Nose drops unless there are excessive control inputs

All basic training stuff in a Cessna. How many more clues do you want ?
The Ancient Geek is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 14:46
  #794 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 64° 7' 41N 21° 49' 39W
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by The Ancient Geek View Post
How hard can it be to identify a stall ?
AD shows nose high
Airspeed decaying
Buffet
ASI unwinding
Nose drops unless there are excessive control inputs

All basic training stuff in a Cessna. How many more clues do you want ?
Agreed. But details will come out in report re “decaying airspeed.” If TOGA activated - all bets are off.
This is not a Cessna.
Human factors - an FO that didnt let go of the stick. Bad.
Stby4Higher is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 15:10
  #795 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by Stby4Higher View Post
Competent minority pilots want nothing to do with the place.

If this FO had a history of misidentifying stalls, training failed him badly.

This certainly wouldnt be the first time on the cheap training would be at fault.
1 Maybe competent minorities are seeking out the great jobs in aviation. It has been documented and Atlas doesn't appear to be one of them.
2 Atlas has increased training sessions and gone out of the way to help struggling students. They started giving students a session of just landings... I never got that. I did, however, always have a healthy fear of failing and not making the grade.



E.A.T is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 15:22
  #796 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 608
You guys apparently know something about the ethnic background of the FO...why is it relevant? Where do you guys get this info? Is the HR dept applying affirmative action? Why doesn’t the ntsb publish something 35+ days after the accident? Is the fbi involved? Is that the reason?
fox niner is online now  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 17:10
  #797 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: South Alabama
Age: 69
Posts: 320
Just a question..... Would/could Boeing put pressure on the NTSB to delay release of information on this accident due to other pending investigations?
Old Boeing Driver is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 17:17
  #798 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: here and there
Posts: 160
Originally Posted by 413X3 View Post
Right after the ethnicity of the first officer became public... all the rumors started blaming him.
Not only his poor skills that are verified by a RELIABLE source.
Also the blaming of minorities being forced into the cockpit by HR departments because of "diversity"
The racist comments are across many aviation sites.
This attitude is not being addressed and is never going to get better until these people are the ones finding themselves on the street and have no job offers AND are not welcome on websites either.
Is it racist if it is true? Do you not see the irony in your statement that diversity hire policies have left many good hires on the outside looking in, e.g. on the street? If there were no hires based on diversity but simply on flight experience and competency, then it would not be an issue. You can blame racism all you want, but the facts are the facts.
formulaben is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 19:05
  #799 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Connecticut, USA
Age: 59
Posts: 227
Originally Posted by Old Boeing Driver View Post
Just a question..... Would/could Boeing put pressure on the NTSB to delay release of information on this accident due to other pending investigations?
Seems unlikely. I would think that if it was a personnel problem, then Boeing would welcome the distraction from their issues.

jugofpropwash is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2019, 20:20
  #800 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Alabama
Posts: 3
Does the rumor mill indicate that the FO was the PF?
AnyOldPilot is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.