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Ryanair flight: 'Racial abuse passenger' referred to police

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Ryanair flight: 'Racial abuse passenger' referred to police

Old 23rd Oct 2018, 16:16
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Angry

Originally Posted by krismiler
Agreed, totally unacceptable behaviour but I cant help wondering if thered still be such a fuss being made if the races of those involved were reversed.

The Tokyo convention of 1963 covers incidents occurring on board aircraft. If the aerobridge was still attached and the door was open then I believe local authorities have jurisdiction, but Im not a lawyer.
I did watch the whole video and it looks like it was the old lady who insulted the man telling him " he stinks" . Again ,we have a good example of the PC propaganda.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 17:16
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Not commenting on the incident itself, since others have covered that, but if the lady was immobile to the degree reported, should she have been seated in the aisle, potentially blocking two seats in the event of an evac?
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 17:20
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I'm not entirely convinced that the claimed racial slurs really existed. I watched the video before reading any thing more specific than "racist rant" and "slurs". The audio is poor quality, and I certainly didn't catch everything, but it certainly seemed to me like he called her a "blasted" bas***d. Subsequently, I read articles which claimed that he called her a "black bas***d, after reading that I went back and listened again, and it still sounded like "blasted" to me. Obviously he was belligerent and insulting and I'm certainly not excusing that, but try as I might to hear the word before bas***d as "black", it always seems to be distinctly 2 syllables to my ear.

Last edited by A Squared; 23rd Oct 2018 at 17:38.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 19:35
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001
The laws in most jurisdictions says.

It is generally illegal to film or record on private property without permission. I cannot look it up now but I know it is in the terms of carriage for at least three international airlines and is written clearly in their in flight magazine with other "fine print". You agree to their terms and conditions when you purchase a ticket.

An aircraft is not deemed "a public place", it is private property, just like a shopping centre. Many people mistakenly believe this is "public" and therefor they can record video but that is not the case.

However it is a moot point.
Absolute rubbish. It is not, and never has been, an offence to record audio or video without permission.

What jurisdictions are you referring to? Specific examples please...

I cannot look it up now = Im making this up

Terms of carriage are not legislation, and dont trump legislation.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 19:44
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Good point, a squared. He looked more mentalist than racist; the racial angle, if there was one, was an afterthought. To listen to the media though, that was the only issue. Thought to ponder: if the victim had called him a WHITE stinky man, does she then get referred to CPS?
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 20:59
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Oh good, the racism apologists have arrived. Took longer than expected, to be honest - PPRuNe standards are apparently slipping!
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 21:12
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The Tokyo convention of 1963 covers incidents occurring on board aircraft. If the aerobridge was still attached and the door was open then I believe local authorities have jurisdiction, but I’m not a lawyer.
I am a lawyer and I don't know the answer in this case: that's because there is almost certainly more than one correct answer - as LegalApproach alludes to above there are three possible legal jurisdictions which could apply to a criminal offence being committed on this flight:

1. Spain; where the aircraft was parked on the ground when the incident happened; 2. Ireland; where the aircraft is registered and 3. The UK, (actually England and Wales in this case, not Scotland or NI) where the aircraft was heading to (although as I've learnt from this thread, the jurisdiction of England and Wales doesn't 'kick in' until full power is applied on the runway in Barcelona). And that's just the English law. Legal jurisdiction on international flights is a bit of a minefield.

I did watch the whole video and it looks like it was the old lady who insulted the man telling him " he stinks" . Again ,we have a good example of the PC propaganda
In English law, any racist or racial epithet / reference intended to cause harassment/alarm/distress is a more serious offence (and rightly so IMO) - "you stink" is about as mild an insult as you can get, whereas "you black bastard" is a direct reference to this woman's ethnicity. And there is a distinct power dynamic at work when a white man calls a black woman a "black bastard". Even so if she had called him a 'white bastard', which she didn't, the same laws would apply. Call that 'PC' if you want, she should not have told him "you stink"; but quite clearly what he said was more serious and the law (of England and Wales at least) recognises that. However unless the plane had already taken off, that law doesn't apply here.

Thought to ponder: if the victim had called him a WHITE stinky man, does she then get referred to CPS?
If he makes a complaint to the Police of a racially aggravated public order offence, absolutely. Except not in this case, for the jurisdictional reasons above. I don't know the Spanish/Irish law on these matters.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 21:54
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Originally Posted by Windshearescape
What an ignorant and unpleasant fool you are.
IMHO, ATNotts was bang on the money in his post. The states of eastern Europe have a less enlightened attitude to people from certain parts of the world. This attitude may have been reflected In how the cabin crew dealt with this incident.

Last edited by Thaihawk; 25th Oct 2018 at 15:48. Reason: The letter 'n' missed out in my post.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 02:35
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Originally Posted by Nemrytter
Oh good, the racism apologists have arrived. Took longer than expected, to be honest - PPRuNe standards are apparently slipping!
Well, if you're referring to me, I'm not sure that pointing out that he doesn't appear to have said what he is accused of having said is being an apologist. Have a listen for yourself.
comment in question is at about 1:26. You tube is nice in that you can slow down the playback rate to 3/4 or 1/2 speed to listen to audio more carefully. 3/4 playback speed seems to be the clearest, but in either, he is very clearly saying "blast-ed" and not "black". So if he didn't say "black" and so far that is the only specific "racist" term any article I have read has alleged was used, to support the allegation that this was a racist tirade ... then what makes this racist? If you're going to accuse me of bigotry, wouldn't basic decency suggest that you at least ought to take a look at what I'm commenting on, before jumping straight to the insults? Seems that it would,

Last edited by A Squared; 24th Oct 2018 at 08:34.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 04:43
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Originally Posted by Wedge
And there is a distinct power dynamic at work when a white man calls a black woman a "black bastard".
Except that it appears that he actually *didn't* say "black bastard", that's an invention of the news articles.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 04:49
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Originally Posted by Chipzilla


Absolute rubbish. It is not, and never has been, an offence to record audio or video without permission.

What jurisdictions are you referring to? Specific examples please...

I cannot look it up now = Im making this up

Terms of carriage are not legislation, and dont trump legislation.
Also, having something like that in the contract of carriage deosn't make it a crime, at least not where I am (US) Something like that would be a civil issue. If it's prohibited in the contract of carriage, they can demand that you stop, and if you refuse, they can demand that you leave their property, and if you refuse to do that, the police can come and arrest you for trespassing, but they're arresting you for trespassing, refusing to leave when requested to. You're not being arrested for the act of recording video. I realize that this all took place in other jurisdictions than the US, so it may be different, but I'm skeptical that recording video is a crime on an airplane.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 05:35
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I did not say it was a crime, I said it was "shot illegally", read my post.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 05:49
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the police can come and arrest you for trespassing
Quite possibly wrong but I have always thought that one had to prove damage for a trespassing charge to stick?

A Sydney, Australia lawyer, told me very recently that it is an offence to photograph someone without their permission, being careful to draw the line between deliberately taking a persons picture, without their permission and taking a picture that included a person but who was not the object of the picture. This was all related to drones but the lawyer did say that certain laws about taking a persons picture applied across the board . The photographer on the Ryan Air aircraft was, I think, without a doubt, photographing the man who was engaged in the dispute. IF the audio and visual here is illegal would it be inadmissible too? As soon as the defence can get two or three witnesses contradicting each other the case would surely be lost?
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 06:09
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001
I did not say it was a crime, I said it was "shot illegally", read my post.
Which is still wrong. Illegal means contra to the law. There is no law about filming a public matter in a private place.

What you mean to say is unauthorised; i.e, without permission.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 06:39
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001
I did not say it was a crime, I said it was "shot illegally", read my post.
Right, you didn't use the word "crime", but "illegal", still means against the law, and contrary to a contract is not the same as being a violation of the law.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 06:42
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Originally Posted by parabellum
Quite possibly wrong but I have always thought that one had to prove damage for a trespassing charge to stick?
I think that's a different rules in different countries thing. Seems like there was another thread here recently in which this was discussed, and my recollection was that the law in the UK was similar to what you describe, which as far as i know, is not the case in the US. If you're on my property, and I've told you to leave, and you don't, you're trespassing. You may very will be correct for Oz.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 06:54
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A Sydney, Australia lawyer, told me very recently that it is an offence to photograph someone without their permission,
If that were the case the news media would be without photos and video a great deal of the time!!!
Have you seen all those photos outside of court with people trying to hide their face?
In a public place, where there is no expectation of privacy it is not illegal. In a public place where there is an expectation of privacy e.g. public toilet, change rooms at public pool, it can be illegal. In a private place it is generally illegal but even this has limits. So a rock star wedding outdoors on a private estate, media hire a helicopter to shoot photos, is technically illegal but they get very good lawyers to argue "public interest" and say there was no attempt to cover up the function etc.

If this stuff was absolute then you would not need courts to decide. That does not mean that there are not some strong precedents and laws in place.

PS I am talking Australian rules here.

Right, you didn't use the word "crime", but "illegal", still means against the law, and contrary to a contract is not the same as being a violation of the law.
For goodness sake, I meant illegal in the literal sense, without legal authority. Go and see Cirque de Soleil and try taking a photo on their private property and argue the difference with them.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 07:05
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If you look at his body language - generally hunched and turning away rather than squaring-up aggressively - I think this was a mental health issue. I am afraid that everyone yelling and shouting at him made it worse. I don't think he was processing what was happening and I suspect that he should have been quietly led away.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 08:02
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I'm getting increasingly uncomfortable with the media coverage - specifically, the media coverage here in the UK - about this incident, but more especially into the man in question.
Firstly we had the (mainly tabloid) media almost gleefully reporting it as a racist incident. There now appears to be significant doubt about that. Worse, there are now personal insults splashed across the public domain about the man himself without knowing his mental capacity. One of our (here in the UK) magazine television morning TV show hosts, which airs to millions, called him "this half-wit". Today, most tabloid press are naming him, with his "neighbours" - in his home city, which again they have identified - labelling him as a "wierdo."

No. Yes, he did an horrific thing in verbally abusing the lady BUT - big "but" - IF he is mentally unstable then having his name and location reported openly in the national press AND having his character slurred so publicly then we are into territory that I find verging on dangerous for him.

I think a little calming of the waters on this is needed until the full facts are known. Else we could drive him into a pretty dark place, which nobody wants.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 08:47
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Apparently the man worked for the railways in the ticket office for 30 years. That probably explains a lot!
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