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Ryanair flight: 'Racial abuse passenger' referred to police

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Ryanair flight: 'Racial abuse passenger' referred to police

Old 23rd Oct 2018, 01:27
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The airline has a duty of care for passengers and staff which is delegated to the commander for the period of time he is on board the aircraft. The question is whether this duty of care was carried out or whether an unnecessary risk was taken in allowing this person to travel.
So you seem to be saying that the PIC has a duty of care to ensure that a passenger does not have their feelings hurt because that is all that occurred. The guy's ranting was appalling, we do not know what provoked it, the video does not show that but the result is hurt feelings that is all. The threat to push her would constitute a threat and as such may be actionable but otherwise...
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 01:49
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Do cabin crew receive any training initial or recurrent on dealing with aggressive, abusive, intoxicated or violent pax ?
Yes, unfortunately it's part of the job for them these days. De-escalation techniques and even physical restraint are regularly practised during training. This incident was at the lower end of the spectrum involving only insults, no serious threats were made or physical violence occurred, and neither of them was likely to attack anyone else.

An actual fist fight involving younger males is another matter.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 01:55
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001

So you seem to be saying that the PIC has a duty of care to ensure that a passenger does not have their feelings hurt because that is all that occurred. The guy's ranting was appalling, we do not know what provoked it, the video does not show that but the result is hurt feelings that is all. The threat to push her would constitute a threat and as such may be actionable but otherwise...
See my earlier post :
Ryanair flight: 'Racial abuse passenger' referred to police

I think you're being deliberately obtuse. Someone who is willing to verbally and racially abuse another passenger whilst refusing to be seated near them poses risk to the passenger and thereby the crew should the situation escalate in flight. Where you draw the line is up to you as the captain. I know where I do so.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 05:01
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“I know where I do so”. But do you? In this case we’ve seen the video, which the cabin crew hadn’t. If you come across an argument in full flow how do you know who’s to blame or what started it?
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 08:30
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Originally Posted by ShotOne
“I know where I do so”. But do you? In this case we’ve seen the video, which the cabin crew hadn’t. If you come across an argument in full flow how do you know who’s to blame or what started it?
You don't know all the details first hand, so in practise you may delegate that to your CM where you can. If you're told there's an aggressive man shouting racial abuse at a passenger unable to calm down or act in a civil manner, I know where I stand.

The question over whether the captain had enough information vs how you interpret someone's actions are different questions.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 08:48
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if someone comes into an argument half way through they will issue instructions to de-escalate the situation and to comply with the need to get the cabin ready for takeoff. If anyone needs offloading, it's the parties that don't comply with these instructions and settle down. Who started the argument, and how it got to where it is,is almost irrelevant It's the willingness of the parties to comply which determines whether they stay on-board or not.

G

Last edited by groundbum; 23rd Oct 2018 at 10:05. Reason: typo
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 10:10
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If you're told there's an aggressive man shouting racial abuse at a passenger unable to calm down
That is the key, again a short illegally shot phone video does not tell the whole story but at the end I would say he looked calmed down, shocked probably that the bloke behind called him on his bad behaviour. I am trying to imagine how the cabin crew would relate what happened to me if that was on one of my flights, what words they may use because ultimately as PIC I would have to be guided by them.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 10:49
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LegalApproach - interesting jurisdictional issues here. Clearly England and Wales jurisdiction would only start to apply once the plane is on its takeoff roll under s92 CAA 1982.....

So who does have jurisdiction? In theory both the Spanish and Irish authorities? Presumably the 'default' for an aircraft still on the ground is the local authorities i.e. in this case the Spanish?
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 11:12
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001
That is the key, again a short illegally shot phone video does not tell the whole story but at the end I would say he looked calmed down, shocked probably that the bloke behind called him on his bad behaviour. I am trying to imagine how the cabin crew would relate what happened to me if that was on one of my flights, what words they may use because ultimately as PIC I would have to be guided by them.
Who says it was "shot illegally" ?? Did not know there were any restrictions on photography aboard Ryanair A/c.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 11:28
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I thought verbal abuse was an "assault"on the person and a chargeable offence?
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 11:34
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Originally Posted by oldpax
I thought verbal abuse was an "assault"on the person and a chargeable offence?
Given the circumstances that’s probably a question best answered by someone familiar with Spanish law and the Spanish legal system.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 12:18
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001
at the end I would say he looked calmed down, shocked probably that the bloke behind called him on his bad behaviour.
From the video, it does not look like he calmed down because of the bloke behind him. He was telling that bloke that "I will carry on" when told to stop. He only calmed down because he got his way - he managed to intimidate the woman to change seats away from him.

A personal observation: I noticed that some elderly folks tend to get cranky and quarrelsome when they feel that they are disrespected.and will start scolding or audibly grumbling at strangers over trivia issues. I have had to intervene very recently on two different occasions when travelling with two different very elderly relatives after they started scolding strangers on pubilc transport. I suggest a similar mechanism is at play in this event.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 12:35
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Originally Posted by cee cee

A personal observation: I noticed that some elderly folks tend to get cranky and quarrelsome when they feel that they are disrespected.and will start scolding or audibly grumbling at strangers over trivia issues.
That could be said about both participants. As has been mentioned by others, the video doesn't show the beginning of the conflict. By the time the video starts, the daughter has already arrived from another section of the plane, and is already yelling at the guy. The only description I have seen of the start of the conflict is from the Mother. She can hardly be described as a disinterested observer.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 12:58
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Who says it was "shot illegally" ?? Did not know there were any restrictions on photography aboard Ryanair A/c.
The laws in most jurisdictions says.

It is generally illegal to film or record on private property without permission. I cannot look it up now but I know it is in the terms of carriage for at least three international airlines and is written clearly in their in flight magazine with other "fine print". You agree to their terms and conditions when you purchase a ticket.

An aircraft is not deemed "a public place", it is private property, just like a shopping centre. Many people mistakenly believe this is "public" and therefor they can record video but that is not the case.

However it is a moot point.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 13:22
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Originally Posted by Windshearescape
What an ignorant and unpleasant fool you are.

Why do you think that ? Are cultural differences and thus different views ESPECIALLY on things like P/C and racism an urban legend now ?
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 13:27
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Originally Posted by A Squared
That could be said about both participants [being old and cranky].
That could be true, however,

Originally Posted by A Squared
As has been mentioned by others, the video doesn't show the beginning of the conflict. By the time the video starts, the daughter has already arrived from another section of the plane, and is already yelling at the guy. The only description I have seen of the start of the conflict is from the Mother. She can hardly be described as a disinterested observer.
We do have a description of the start from the person who took the video in the first post. I will quote his recollection below:
David Lawrence, who filmed what happened, told BBC Radio 5 Live: "Everything was calm, we were getting ready to take off. And then a man came on board and arrived at his seat, then spoke very harshly to a woman sitting in the aisle seat. "That was what got my attention as it was very loud and very aggressive. He started to shout at the woman, saying 'get out of the way', 'move your feet', 'you shouldn't be sitting here'." Mr Lawrence said no attendants initially came over. The woman's daughter, who had been sitting elsewhere, arrived and "an argument started", he said. "He pushed past the woman and went to his seat," he said, adding that what's seen in the video then unfolded - describing it as the "most disgusting exchange of racial slurs and foul language".
I will also point out that the man in the next row who intervened continually told the elderly man to stop. Look at where he put his hands to block, and who he looked at when he said that. He had a front row seat for the whole affair.

So while I agree that the elderly woman's grumblings and scoldings did inflame the situation somewhat, if I were a betting man, I will put my money on the elderly man starting the whole affair.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 14:02
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The Spanish Authorities would have jurisdiction and possibly the Irish if they have a similar provision to that under the UK Civil Aviation Act but I am not familiar with Irish legislation.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 15:09
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001
The laws in most jurisdictions says.

It is generally illegal to film or record on private property without permission. I cannot look it up now but I know it is in the terms of carriage for at least three international airlines and is written clearly in their in flight magazine with other "fine print". You agree to their terms and conditions when you purchase a ticket.

An aircraft is not deemed "a public place", it is private property, just like a shopping centre. Many people mistakenly believe this is "public" and therefor they can record video but that is not the case.

However it is a moot point.
Yes, indeed..............and virtually unenforceable.
Seems the badly behaved gentleman will not be prosecuted so what chance prosecuting someone taking some images.
Nearly everyone possesses one of these recording devices.
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 15:54
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001
The laws in most jurisdictions says.

It is generally illegal to film or record on private property without permission. I cannot look it up now but I know it is in the terms of carriage for at least three international airlines and is written clearly in their in flight magazine with other "fine print". You agree to their terms and conditions when you purchase a ticket.

An aircraft is not deemed "a public place", it is private property, just like a shopping centre. Many people mistakenly believe this is "public" and therefor they can record video but that is not the case.

However it is a moot point.

The airlines would be in a really tricky spot to punish this as they would hapiliy share scenes that are filmed of the airline doing good, however horrendously cringey "funny/cute" PAs or worse... Any video of Phil Shaw of GB/EZY fame..... are, the airlines are more than happy to publish them over social media for the fre advertising... They can't have it both ways
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Old 23rd Oct 2018, 16:14
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There seems to be an aspect here none of touched on, and this is in no way an excuse for this man, but from the conversation / behavior this would not surprise me.

I have had a few dealings with elderly people, including own family and strangers. The way responded and behaved, it could be that he is not 100% there, in the sense that there could be some dementia in play.
I have seen elderly people go of on others, also on my for no reason at all, simply because they are suffering from mental health / dementia due to their age.
This was more based on the observation of his demeanor. This does not excuse the situation, but it does make it more complicated.
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