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Shamrock A330 and New York tracon run-in

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Shamrock A330 and New York tracon run-in

Old 26th Jul 2018, 15:15
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jurassicjockey View Post
"Standard pilot training for weather avoidance". How do you account for the variations in radar equipment and what they show. Experience is a huge factor as well. Reading a radar display has a lot of subleties.
Maybe lets start with some standardized atc around the world. If the SID is runway heading, and you require a 90 degree turn off of that through an area of weather, maybe a heads up through the tower to your departures. We're not mind readers, and when you point us at an area of weather with no advance warning, then a cautious man should hesitate. Maybe the previous 5 went through and regretted it. I know I've done that in the past. Lived to tell the tale.
Yelling won't fix your mistakes, and creates an unsafe scenario.
Shamrock stated they were familiar with NYC flying. The departure off 22R for transatlantic flights is always runway heading with tower followed by a left turn east almost as soon as you switch departure. You can’t turn right or continue straight because of both departure flows from LGA and 31LeftKE departures which make a hard left to avoid LGA. If I can’t turn left due to weather I inform tower before accepting a TO clearance. The weather overlay seems to show no weather issues with a left turn and flights before and after had no issues. North of LGA and JFK was getting hammered which would make the southern area extremely busy airspace. I doubt the vectors were for spite and they probably had to suspend departures from 31L or LGA depending on configuration. NYC atc has very good weather overlays and they discontinue departures quickly when weather blocks a route. They also provide calls as to WX intensity ahead on a routine baises. They use terminology level 1 through 6 precipitation.
You can make some inference from Delta 191 at DFW but it’s slight at best. One was a aircraft in approach configuration at low altitude descending at minimum speed and the other was a clean aircraft climbing at a much higher altitude and speed. From a safety standpoint a apples to oranges situation.

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Old 26th Jul 2018, 16:26
  #42 (permalink)  
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Always be wary of the guy who can't just go to the next sector, but instead has to say his piece about his 'experience'.
It's a disagreement between two people doing a job. The option of not following the pack was two orbits and the usual New Yohhk controller treatment.
Par for the course.
They were given the hand off to the next sector, so just shut up and go. If your boss is going to talk to his boss that's fine - switch over and write the ASR.
The only reason to tell the controller you're reporting the incident is to posture and big yourself up.
Playground stuff.
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Old 26th Jul 2018, 16:37
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sailvi767 View Post


Shamrock stated they were familiar with NYC flying. The departure off 22R for transatlantic flights is always runway heading with tower followed by a left turn east almost as soon as you switch departure. You canít turn right or continue straight because of both departure flows from LGA and 31LeftKE departures which make a hard left to avoid LGA. If I canít turn left due to weather I inform tower before accepting a TO clearance. The weather overlay seems to show no weather issues with a left turn and flights before and after had no issues. North of LGA and JFK was getting hammered which would make the southern area extremely busy airspace. I doubt the vectors were for spite and they probably had to suspend departures from 31L or LGA depending on configuration. NYC atc has very good weather overlays and they discontinue departures quickly when weather blocks a route. They also provide calls as to WX intensity ahead on a routine baises. They use terminology level 1 through 6 precipitation.
You can make some inference from Delta 191 at DFW but itís slight at best. One was a aircraft in approach configuration at low altitude descending at minimum speed and the other was a clean aircraft climbing at a much higher altitude and speed. From a safety standpoint a apples to oranges situation.

The reference to DL191 was to illustrate the sudden changes in convective weather. A Learjet flew through the weather shortly before and survived but the heavy behind it didnít as it was hit by a microburst.
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Old 26th Jul 2018, 17:53
  #44 (permalink)  
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Listen to the recording again.

The previous aircraft, a Delta, requested a further left turn due to the weather of 070˚. The Shamrock was next and was given a heading of 100˚ (presumably the Delta was given something similar) but refused the turn due to the weather. The weather may have been moving north or north east as would be common, especially if the wind was down the runway 22. Looking at the screen this appears to be the same weather as the Delta had requested avoidance for, granted the Delta opted to pass the weather to the north while the Shamrock chose to pass it to the south. Also according to the screen color coding, there were different levels of intensity in the weather, not simply the 'lightest' one.

It is certainly not correct to suggest that the 330 crew were alone in their concerns regarding the weather, as the controller seems to suggest. I'd like to hear the recording for the previous few departures.
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Old 27th Jul 2018, 06:05
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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They were given the hand off to the next sector, so just shut up and go. If your boss is going to talk to his boss that's fine - switch over and write the ASR.
The only reason to tell the controller you're reporting the incident is to posture and big yourself up.
Playground stuff.
Yep. No compliments for the controller, but the pilot just sounded like he'd got his big ones caught in the yoke doing all those turns (oh, no, wait - A330 )
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Old 27th Jul 2018, 07:27
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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I agree. Attitude and RT from Shamrock was poor throughout, and the controller is just having to deal with an unexpected disruption to the flow, and slot him back in (also a cheek of shamrock to be requesting the direct when he had gotten tired of the hold, and ironic that the direct would have taken him the same route as he would have gone anyway) .

Reading the weather radar is as much an art as a science, borne of worldwide experience, and despite his on air posturing, a shamrock pilot does not often get to see the huge and intense stuff such as is found in Asia and Africa. In fact, my observation is that European pilots often deviate round the smallest returns, and what's worse, do it in a demanding way like they're asserting their own self importance. I also often hear pilots in europe carrying out their own deviations around fairly minor returns, without first getting permission, which quite rightly sometimes gets a rebuke from the controller.
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Old 27th Jul 2018, 07:47
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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As a NY Tracon controller, reading some of the misinformation in some of the replies in this thread has been very entertaining, but it also reminds me that very few people actually know just how complex our airspace is. There is a lot of background context that's always missed on situations like this one. I will agree that he could had phrased it differently, but having been myself in similar situations before, I can understand why he reacted that way.

We are in emergency crisis with the staffing situation here. We are working 10 hour shifts, mandatory 6 day workweeks with longer times on combined radar positions, and shorter breaks. Add that to the frustration of watching 1 aircraft deviate way differently than all the previous aircraft just before it, understand that there is a human being behind the screen, not a machine. Sometimes emotions can get even the best of us. He has over 3 decades of experience and is retiring at the end of this year. very cool guy, he's not a douche. Though he didn't do anything wrong from the operational point of view, I'm sure he would probably word it differently if he had a chance to go back in time.

I'm sure that there are other busy places by volume, but I doubt that there is another place in the world with this many high volume airports so close to each other. We many not be the busiest (though we're up there) but we are definitely the most complex. A deviation in other busy places may be not be such a big deal other than extra frequency workload, but here it's very likely to put you in direct conflict with other traffic.

That particular shift we were in swap and GREKI was one of the few fixes that were open to ALL N90 airports, so departures out of EWR, LGA, JFK, HPN, TEB, MMU (those last two go over Brezy first then Greki), plus all other satellites were being launched with timed intervals. When the Air Lingus got up, and turned the wrong way, they missed their gap reference the other departures from the other airports, and he couldn't just drive through LGA airspace with all the traffic that was there already confined tighter because of the weather. We do NOT penalize the aircraft flying their routes for the one that didn't comply. The best option is to do exactly what he did, hold him until another gap that the aircraft can meet becomes available. Our airspace is so tight that we do not have holding patterns within N90 airspace. If we need to hold, we have to issue box pattern vectors like he did. All our holding patterns are on the outter fixes in center airspace.

I could go on a longer and more detailed explanation of why he did what he did move by move, but it would require more time than I'm willing to commit to this.
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Old 27th Jul 2018, 08:03
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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N90-EWR

Many thanks for that. Most interesting to hear it from your point of view. It is pretty much what I expected. Clearly there was stress and frustration on both sides.
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Old 27th Jul 2018, 08:04
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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The Captain has the ultimate responsibility
for the aircraft and passengers, he or she has total authority for its operation


Some posters seem to have forgotten that


A controller, no matter how busy he is doesnít have the option to overide that


Perhaps this flight didnít fit in with his plan, well, make a new one, the dynamics of convective activity demand flexibility



Ideally this should be a cooperative effort between Pilots and Controllers but if ATC wonít help but worse points you towards weather youíre not comfortable with you have to speak up and take action


As this Captain did, from the recording itís apparent he stayed very calm, unlike the controller who aggravated the situation by loosing his cool


The Ďyou got yourself in this situationí statement was ridiculous and implied this controller was going to screw around with this flight to alleviate his obvious frustration



Highly unprofessional, he seemed to forget those blips have people in them



I donít blame the Captain at all for his parting
remarks, they were appropriate and very restrained, unlike this controller


Iíve flown into all three NY airports since 1987 and had some rare testy exchanges on the radio but nothing like this
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Old 27th Jul 2018, 08:11
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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We are in emergency crisis with the staffing situation here. We are working 10 hour shifts, mandatory 6 day workweeks with longer times on combined radar positions, and shorter breaks
Thats the most interesting bit of the thread to me. What’s the reason? Same as the bottom half of the world where modern management types achieve KPI’s by running leaner than lean and not investing in training and recruitment thus boosting their own bank accounts?
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Old 27th Jul 2018, 08:17
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by stilton View Post
Perhaps this flight didnít fit in with his plan, well, make a new one, the dynamics of convective activity demand flexibility
He did make a new plan, which is the same plan any of us would had done: Hold him until a gap to go back over GREKI became available. The only thing he did wrong was getting into a verbal contest with the pilot, which I agree was unnecessary. I'd argue that the "my boss will call your boss" parting shot from the pilot was also uncalled for as well.
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Old 27th Jul 2018, 08:28
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Its a team effort, but until the controller gets to ride the beast too wherever it might end up, controllers are there ultimately in an advisory capacity with the implicit trust of the crews to provide a service.
There are some wonderful and talented people working in the NY area doing a tough job in ATC, this guy appears to either be having a bad day or is overloaded.
The fungus guy for his part didn't do anything initially different to what many of do day to day, the whole "I've been flying etc etc" from him was pointless and unnecessary.
The wider point needs however to be reiterated, the Commander is ultimately responsible, so never allow yourself to be be bullied, cajoled or even unduly influenced into a decision that you fell isn't safe.
I've read all sorts online about this potentially causing capacity problems in NY airspace due to a variety of complex issues, from the perspective of the commander Id say so what? that is a problem for someone else to resolve, a damaged or mayday aircraft will also cause significant disruption most likely far worse than a few delays.
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Old 27th Jul 2018, 09:23
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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N90, really appreciate putting your side of the incident. I can understand what being overworked, undemanned and pretty stressed feels like, as that is the state of many of us in the flight deck too. However, there is too often a hectoring and aggressive approach over the radio in New York, be that on the ground in JFK or when speaking to approach.

NY approach are pretty good, and have some serious airspace issues to contend with, but they would be a whole lot better if they spoke more slowly, used standard RT, and remembered that not everyone comes to JFK every day.

This is is also another example of the lack of understanding on both sides of the microphone - fam flights are few and far between these days, and it would be v unlikely that a controller has had the experience of sitting on a jump seat watching the crew try to pick their way through the weather or understanding some of the issues with “too clever by half” modern weather radars.
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Old 27th Jul 2018, 09:39
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by N90-EWR View Post
As a NY Tracon controller, reading some of the misinformation in some of the replies in this thread has been very entertaining, but it also reminds me that very few people actually know just how complex our airspace is. There is a lot of background context that's always missed on situations like this one. I will agree that he could had phrased it differently, but having been myself in similar situations before, I can understand why he reacted that way.

We are in emergency crisis with the staffing situation here. We are working 10 hour shifts, mandatory 6 day workweeks with longer times on combined radar positions, and shorter breaks. Add that to the frustration of watching 1 aircraft deviate way differently than all the previous aircraft just before it, understand that there is a human being behind the screen, not a machine. Sometimes emotions can get even the best of us. He has over 3 decades of experience and is retiring at the end of this year. very cool guy, he's not a douche. Though he didn't do anything wrong from the operational point of view, I'm sure he would probably word it differently if he had a chance to go back in time.

I'm sure that there are other busy places by volume, but I doubt that there is another place in the world with this many high volume airports so close to each other. We many not be the busiest (though we're up there) but we are definitely the most complex. A deviation in other busy places may be not be such a big deal other than extra frequency workload, but here it's very likely to put you in direct conflict with other traffic.

That particular shift we were in swap and GREKI was one of the few fixes that were open to ALL N90 airports, so departures out of EWR, LGA, JFK, HPN, TEB, MMU (those last two go over Brezy first then Greki), plus all other satellites were being launched with timed intervals. When the Air Lingus got up, and turned the wrong way, they missed their gap reference the other departures from the other airports, and he couldn't just drive through LGA airspace with all the traffic that was there already confined tighter because of the weather. We do NOT penalize the aircraft flying their routes for the one that didn't comply. The best option is to do exactly what he did, hold him until another gap that the aircraft can meet becomes available. Our airspace is so tight that we do not have holding patterns within N90 airspace. If we need to hold, we have to issue box pattern vectors like he did. All our holding patterns are on the outter fixes in center airspace.

I could go on a longer and more detailed explanation of why he did what he did move by move, but it would require more time than I'm willing to commit to this.
That input is much appreciated! As an ATC trainee this sort of info helps to understand the challenges in such busy airspaces as the one in NY. Thank you much!
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Old 27th Jul 2018, 10:14
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Farrell View Post
Always be wary of the guy who can't just go to the next sector, but instead has to say his piece about his 'experience'.
It's a disagreement between two people doing a job. The option of not following the pack was two orbits and the usual New Yohhk controller treatment.
Par for the course.
They were given the hand off to the next sector, so just shut up and go. If your boss is going to talk to his boss that's fine - switch over and write the ASR.
The only reason to tell the controller you're reporting the incident is to posture and big yourself up.
Playground stuff.
The usual New Yohhk controller treatment?
How many times have you been flying in and out of the New York area?
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Old 27th Jul 2018, 11:40
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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If I am going to go into writing about a controller then as a courtesy more than anything, I will let him or her know before I leave the frequency. Nothing to do with willy waving but purely as a 'heads-up' for the controller, so that they can collate their thoughts when they unplug and if allowed, then it gives them the chance to listen to the tapes whilst everything is still fresh in their mind. When the subsequent email or phone call comes asking for more information, they will at least be prepared for it.

I would have perhaps have worded it differently to how my fellow Irishman did but that is easy for me to say in hindsight. I did think he showed more restraint than many others would though.

There is no place for emotion on the R/T, regardless of where you are are in the world. Keep it concise and operationally relevant or otherwise keep quiet and don't say it.
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Old 27th Jul 2018, 12:17
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Emma Royds View Post
There is no place for emotion on the R/T, regardless of where you are are in the world. Keep it concise and operationally relevant or otherwise keep quiet and don't say it.
In an ideal world yes, but weíre hardly dealing with monks in the aviation world. I would guess that pilots and controllers are among the people with the biggest egos around. Not judging just observing. Itís very difficult if not impossible to remain calm when something like this is happening. I got slightly riled watching the video from my chair, having had a similar situation.

Maybe we should learn more about how we can improve in this regard?
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Old 27th Jul 2018, 12:33
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Smile

Originally Posted by Phantom Driver View Post

Old adage -" one peep is worth a thousand sweeps "
not heard that one before. Thanks PD
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Old 27th Jul 2018, 13:37
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Fascinating reading everyone's take on this, particularly N90-EWR's.

There's a lot of talk about Captain's authority etc, and in the clip I see no evidence of this being undermined. I agree that there were comments from both parties that were clumsy and unnecessary.

The point I would make, however, is that a lot of the conversation above revolves around what happened in the air; To use common TEM parlance - how the threat of weather (and mid-air cillision) were mitigated against. But this authority of the commander does not magically appear on rotation - it exists on the ground. So I wonder if maybe the whole thing could have been avoided. NY TRACON can't make the aircraft turn left, just as JFK TWR can't make the captain depart.

Was the left turn after departure what the crew were expecting? If not - was their mental model deficient?

I don't have the pleasure of visiting the NYC area, but my home base is also in a busy, although probably simpler TMA. As far as I have been told, if we feel we can't comply with our departure instructions due weather, the tower would rather know in advance and would be happy to coordinate a safe route with the departure controller. What they really seem to like is if you tell them what you want/need clearly, and concisely.

Just my two penneth.
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Old 27th Jul 2018, 13:56
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Off all the major airports in the developed world JFK has most probably the worst ATC followed closely by Chicago.
rude, non standard and chaotic. Other major airports like Atlanta, Houston and LAX are all very professional.
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