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Shamrock A330 and New York tracon run-in

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Shamrock A330 and New York tracon run-in

Old 24th Jul 2018, 14:47
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Shamrock A330 and New York tracon run-in

Sorry if this is the wrong place.

Interesting that ATC scolds a pilot for something like this - pilot stuck to his guns at least. Do NY ATC (and the US?) have wx radars?

Last edited by SliabhLuachra; 24th Jul 2018 at 14:58.
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Old 24th Jul 2018, 15:16
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Doppler radar overlaid on their radar screens as far as I know. Still crew has got to play the cards they are dealt and if the WX radar is showing a build up then they have to follow their guts. Also depends who is ahead that you are "following" on the departures. Lots of cowboys out there so just because the pack headed out on the same track doesn't make it the safest course of action.
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Old 24th Jul 2018, 15:56
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I was fourth or fifth in line over a mountainous route in IMC with the concern being potential for icing. Everyone else got through ok but I got clobbered and had to turn around (the airplane had no de-ice equipment, nor did the others in front of me) and descend below MEA for a period to keep from stalling. It was the worst ice I had ever seen. So, just because the others got through ok is no guarantee that you will...
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Old 24th Jul 2018, 16:29
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Going into the East Coast, we recently got distracted by some very dramatic weather returns on the radar of our brand new plane. Although it was raining pretty solid with reduced vis, we could see the coast line and plenty of aircraft were going through the same areas. WX radar increasingly outputting garbage. No amount of manual mode playing got rid of the colours. The old ones were better.
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Old 24th Jul 2018, 17:04
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What an embarassment. Tough job in New York, but no excuse for that display of crap. Sometimes tracon forgets why they're there.
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Old 24th Jul 2018, 17:30
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He'd never validate in London Terminal Control...
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Old 24th Jul 2018, 17:40
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The controller seems to have forgotten who has the final authority over the disposition of the aircraft. Fake returns or not, if you are not 100% sure, you just go around it. And if some cowboy is happy to fly through red/magenta returns, that doesn't mean everybody else has to as well.
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Old 24th Jul 2018, 18:01
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It would be interesting to see what controllers have to say. I guess this’ll end up in ATC forum.

At first listen I am with the Shamrock.
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Old 24th Jul 2018, 18:22
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Aviate. Navigate. Communicate.

End of.
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Old 24th Jul 2018, 19:31
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ATC, despite the "C" standing for control, is, ultimately an advisory service. It is the responsibility of the PIC to get the aircraft safely between A & B, and to take whatever measures he or she sees fit in order to do that. Of course non standard actions need to be justified but it is important to remember that the air traffic service is there to assist the pilot, not the other way around. If controllers are unhappy with the restrictions in airspace then they need to address their superiors and not get short with the flightcrew.

Last edited by Private jet; 24th Jul 2018 at 20:27.
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Old 24th Jul 2018, 20:05
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I have often found some of NYC ATC to be abrasive and overly confrontational.
I don’t get the bit from the controller where he says “you got yourself into this”.
Departed off 22R followed by the controller giving him 120deg left turn which the Commander declined.

I have a fair idea what Mrs Brown would say to the controller........... that’s nice.

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Old 24th Jul 2018, 20:39
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Air Traffic Control , sounds more like Out Of Control to me.
Unusual attitude for ATC. Unable to recover!
Needs retraining.
ATS is there for me ,not the other way around. Services being the word.

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Old 24th Jul 2018, 21:21
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Originally Posted by wtsmg View Post
Aggressive and arrogant.

I bet the lads wrote the ASR on the way home. The controller needs a reality check.
Hmmm. Maybe aggressive but for sure under considerable pressure to get airplanes out of his "little airfield". Wether its especially helpful to write a report about this kind of chickens..., I´m not sure.
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Old 24th Jul 2018, 21:39
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The controller had no intention of writing a report until the crew brought up to expect a phone call.
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Old 24th Jul 2018, 22:15
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As I unterderstood it, the crew wanted to write a report, not the controller...
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Old 24th Jul 2018, 22:19
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As my son would say, "that controller is messed-up, Dad."
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Old 24th Jul 2018, 22:32
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Some years ago I was cleared for takeoff (757) after a 747 at JFK, the controller was not satisfied when I did not start the takeoff roll 30 seconds after the 747 rotated and told me the next time when I was in New York I should advise the tower if I was not ready. This was a few weeks before the AA 587 lost its vertical stabilizer due to wake turbulence. 2 minutes after a heavy our SOP said. I did just that. I did not respond when he told me to change to departure and wished me a nice flight.
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Old 24th Jul 2018, 22:58
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Would be interesting to hear a NY TRACON controller's view of this. There might be another side of the story that European pilots are unaware of. It's a commander's prerogative to choose the route of flight of course. But when things are heated, as they were, you better be avoiding for good reason. No "for comfort". Buckle up!

The video is a good click bait, but we can't reality tell what was going on in the involved parties' heads.

Last edited by 172_driver; 24th Jul 2018 at 23:09.
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Old 24th Jul 2018, 23:48
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The video is a good click bait, but we can't reality tell what was going on in the involved parties' heads.
To be honest , I thought the controller was doing a pretty good job of sorting out a developing mess .I have found NY controllers to be a professional bunch of guys and certainly accommodating when it comes to weather deviation requests .

While not casting aspersions on Shamrock, I have to say that what you see on the radar often depends on your technique ; "auto gain" on modern radars can paint a dire picture when compared to when you play with manual gain/tilt . I have seen guys deviating when there was very little showing on our radar , or looking out of the window , even at night .
(Old adage -" one peep is worth a thousand sweeps ".)

Bottom line though --Shamrock Commanders decision is final ..Just a pity he got upset at having to orbit over JFK to fit in with traffic . That airspace gets kinda busy , especially when there is weather around....
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 00:23
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A couple of points:

Firstly, modern airborne radar have Turbulence mode as well as weather (WX+T). This is real time information that is not available on a controller’s overlay. The rainfall intensity doesn’t necessarily have to be red for there to be sufficient vertical velocity to indicate turbulence (magenta) on the flight crew’s display.

Further, with convective weather, the suituation can change very quickly. The preceding aircraft may very well have not had any adverse indications at the time. It’s very inappropriate for the controller to suggest that since the others went through it, you should too! You only need to look at the Delta 191 accident at DFW. The light jet that flew through the same cell just moments prior to DAL191 reported a smooth ride..

My 2 cents.
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