type-rated (757) terrorists ?
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Just wanted to say hello and I am well from Pope AFB, NC. I was doing Guard duty(VT) when this terrible tragedy occured. As you know upon this happening all non emergency flights (including ours)have been cancelled. I am here at base ops waiting for release(12Sept1144). I urge all of you to keep a even head on your shoulders, do all you can to support the relief effort(give blood, send food and blankets via Red Cross, Etc) When I return to Vt I will be volunteering my services in NYC to whomever will have me(Expired EMT) for several days.My cell # is 979 574 5987. Anyway, keep good common sense as a priority, and god bless
J
J
Trash du Blanc
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I have flown the DCA visual many times, and the White House is not visible at all from that direction - not compared to the mall, the Capitol, Wash. Monument, etc.
He probably was too high on the first pass, was right over the target before he saw it, made a "fighter type" turn to come around for another try, exceeded 45 deg or so of bank and stalled it. Anyone who has done steep turns in a heavy sim can confirm that you get the shaker a whole lot quicker than you might think. The impact on the Pentagon was just dumb luck.
On another note - religion has at times gone perverted and killed people, but secular humanism has a much higher body count, from the Third Riech to the killing fields....
He probably was too high on the first pass, was right over the target before he saw it, made a "fighter type" turn to come around for another try, exceeded 45 deg or so of bank and stalled it. Anyone who has done steep turns in a heavy sim can confirm that you get the shaker a whole lot quicker than you might think. The impact on the Pentagon was just dumb luck.
On another note - religion has at times gone perverted and killed people, but secular humanism has a much higher body count, from the Third Riech to the killing fields....
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There was a thread a couple of months ago (sorry, I cannot find the URL link for it, the search function on PPRuNe won't work cause the server is too busy) in which it was almost unanimously concluded that anyone who was a good performer on Microsoft Flight Simulator etc. but who was not a trained pilot would not be able to land a modern airliner.
The kinds of manoeuvres that these planes went through indicates something beyond amateurism in my opinion. The flight paths of the high-jacked planes, and the fact that all three of the successfully high-jacked planes precisely hit their targets leads me to believe that all of the teams of high-jackers contained one of more pilots with the following alternative backgrounds:
1. extensive 757/767 type simulator training on top of basic flight training.
2. civilian aviation training and operations, probably with 757/767 experience;
or, most scary of all
3. military aviation training.
The whole level of sophistication of this horrifically successful operation suggests something beyond a bunch of simple religious zealots practicing flying on their laptop computers out in a guerilla training camp in a remote part of Afghanistan.
The kinds of manoeuvres that these planes went through indicates something beyond amateurism in my opinion. The flight paths of the high-jacked planes, and the fact that all three of the successfully high-jacked planes precisely hit their targets leads me to believe that all of the teams of high-jackers contained one of more pilots with the following alternative backgrounds:
1. extensive 757/767 type simulator training on top of basic flight training.
2. civilian aviation training and operations, probably with 757/767 experience;
or, most scary of all
3. military aviation training.
The whole level of sophistication of this horrifically successful operation suggests something beyond a bunch of simple religious zealots practicing flying on their laptop computers out in a guerilla training camp in a remote part of Afghanistan.
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Surely the Transponder and FMC changes could have been made by the flight crew in the "good faith" belief that they were dealing with a "standard" highjack scenario.
Could the "expert" set up of the wing angle on final to get 5 floors not just as easily have been the result of not so expert flying coupled with some "luck"?
Could the "expert" set up of the wing angle on final to get 5 floors not just as easily have been the result of not so expert flying coupled with some "luck"?
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Surely the Transponder and FMC changes could have been made by the flight crew in the "good faith" belief that they were dealing with a "standard" highjack scenario.
Could the "expert" set up of the wing angle on final to get 5 floors not just as easily have been the result of not so expert flying coupled with some "luck"?
Too much guess work - let's all wait for the FDR and CVR analyses before speculating any more.
Could the "expert" set up of the wing angle on final to get 5 floors not just as easily have been the result of not so expert flying coupled with some "luck"?
Too much guess work - let's all wait for the FDR and CVR analyses before speculating any more.
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This operation was obviously planned for months, probably years, cost huge amounts of money and held enormous risk. You don't then go and stick four idiots on the plane who are good at MS FltSim! They probably weren't airline pilots, more likely extremists with either some ex-military experience, or maybe they were put through a flying school with some time (type rating?) on 757/767.
I don't think it's a coincidence that all four aircraft were the same (flight deck). Pity United didn't stick an Airbus or something on that morning - that would have surprised them! It's quite possible that they could have done all their flight training in the US - there must be 757 sim in Florida for hire.
Just imagine it - "so, we've got five minutes left at the end of the session, anything you guys wanna do?" "Can we try crashing into the side of the world trade centre?" "er, I guess"
Chilling.
I don't think it's a coincidence that all four aircraft were the same (flight deck). Pity United didn't stick an Airbus or something on that morning - that would have surprised them! It's quite possible that they could have done all their flight training in the US - there must be 757 sim in Florida for hire.
Just imagine it - "so, we've got five minutes left at the end of the session, anything you guys wanna do?" "Can we try crashing into the side of the world trade centre?" "er, I guess"
Chilling.
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Agree with spagiola on this one - that UA 767 looks like it overcooked the turn into the WTC and only just avoided missing the tower altogether.
I'm sure these bastards had had some flying experience on 757/767 sims at least - the attack seems to have been too well planned to leave something like that to chance - but I don't think they'd have had to be experienced pro pilots or anything. After all, they weren't concerned with returning the aircraft safely to the runway, the bastards.....
I'm sure these bastards had had some flying experience on 757/767 sims at least - the attack seems to have been too well planned to leave something like that to chance - but I don't think they'd have had to be experienced pro pilots or anything. After all, they weren't concerned with returning the aircraft safely to the runway, the bastards.....
SkyGod
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BmPilot21:
Yes, you are right, there is a B-767 simulator for hire in Florida: At the Pan-Am Flight Academy in Miami.
It is open to anybody wanting to pay the hourly fee.
I spent 5 days in that box myself this summer.
It is a pretty old and run-down simulator, but plenty good enough for learning how to disconnect the A/P and the A/T.
The visual, although old and "night only" does include landmarks and tall buildings, such as the WTC.
(Yes, I know, Pan-Am never had the B-757/B767. The simulator was bought in recent years from South American and shipped to MIA and installed there for contract training.)
Perhaps in the future simulator customers would be required to obtain a security clearance?
Yes, you are right, there is a B-767 simulator for hire in Florida: At the Pan-Am Flight Academy in Miami.
It is open to anybody wanting to pay the hourly fee.
I spent 5 days in that box myself this summer.
It is a pretty old and run-down simulator, but plenty good enough for learning how to disconnect the A/P and the A/T.
The visual, although old and "night only" does include landmarks and tall buildings, such as the WTC.
(Yes, I know, Pan-Am never had the B-757/B767. The simulator was bought in recent years from South American and shipped to MIA and installed there for contract training.)
Perhaps in the future simulator customers would be required to obtain a security clearance?
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And they must of 'called' on 'Allah' for the skies to be blue?! Was it luck, did they know that it was clear over New York, how did they know and so on.....?!
It was very well planned!
RIP
It was very well planned!
RIP
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The US AOPA website has an interesting animation courtesy of FlightExplorer that shows the flight paths of the aircraft involved. Go to http://www.aopa.org/ to see it.
I'm curious as to whether it is possible to say, by looking at these tracks, when the aircraft diverted from their "normal" route of flight? That would presumably indicate when the hijackers took over, but not necessarily when the physically took the controls of the aircraft.
I'm curious as to whether it is possible to say, by looking at these tracks, when the aircraft diverted from their "normal" route of flight? That would presumably indicate when the hijackers took over, but not necessarily when the physically took the controls of the aircraft.
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I don't agree with the "expert slipping manoeuvre" statement with regard to the second aircraft that hit the WTC.
As you can clearly see from the head-on footage there is a strong crosswind blowing form the aircraft's left to right, this is obvious from the smoke of the first tower.
It looks to me that whoever was flying the aircraft was simply aiming at the tower and not accounting for the drift which would have been obvious from the smoke.
He probably then only realised as he got closer and had to bank the aircraft radically into wind to hit the tower.
If he was even a PPL the chances are that he would have been so mentally overloaded in just flying the aircraft that he probably failed to pick up on the smoke as a clue to the strong drift and didn't notice it until the last minute.
No matter what the case was he unfortunately hit his target with the resulting destruction.
God bless the poor souls who perished in this appalling attack.
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: Unusual Attitude ]
As you can clearly see from the head-on footage there is a strong crosswind blowing form the aircraft's left to right, this is obvious from the smoke of the first tower.
It looks to me that whoever was flying the aircraft was simply aiming at the tower and not accounting for the drift which would have been obvious from the smoke.
He probably then only realised as he got closer and had to bank the aircraft radically into wind to hit the tower.
If he was even a PPL the chances are that he would have been so mentally overloaded in just flying the aircraft that he probably failed to pick up on the smoke as a clue to the strong drift and didn't notice it until the last minute.
No matter what the case was he unfortunately hit his target with the resulting destruction.
God bless the poor souls who perished in this appalling attack.
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: Unusual Attitude ]
Jolly Green Giant
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The Attorney General, John Ashcroft, has said he believes that the hi-jackers were trained in the United States and they are focusing on Vero Beach, Florida. The authorities already say they know who these people are/were.
The connection with Logan is interesting, as there is a known Bin-Laden terroist "cell" in Boston.
The connection with Logan is interesting, as there is a known Bin-Laden terroist "cell" in Boston.
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Just some observations regarding the level of detail and planning that went into this attack. I'm posting again a link posted earlier in the thread for reference, that contains the flight tracks and time details for each flight.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...jack091101.htm
1. All 4 aircraft involved shared the same type rating (757/767 - as many have pointed out). This would make organization of this attack much easier by possibly allowing some of the suicide pilots with training to train others. All pilots would have been working with the same systems, and all would be on the same "page". This would also require the "penetration" of only one flight school for sim training or other training.
2. All flights originated on the east coast, bound for west coast destinations. Since all "targets" were east coast targets, that means all aircraft were fully loaded with fuel for their transcontinental flights, and arrived at their targets with substantial fuel loads, thus making the aircraft better bombs. All 4 flights also took off within 12 minutes of each other (see the link).
3. Each aircraft seems to have been "assigned" to its particular target based on that aircraft's size and fuel load. As we know, two 757s and two 767s were involved. Both 767s were "assigned" to the World Trade Center Towers, each was in the air for about an hour (more or less) before impacting the buildings, thus arriving at their targets with large (and comparable) fuel loads. The 767s were chosen for the WTC towers I believe because they were the largest structures attacked, and had the best chance of bringing the towers down.
While the Pentagon is a very large building, I don't think it's realistic (if I can use that word while discribing an unworldy scenerio) to take out the entire building in a single plane crash. That's why I think a 757 was chosen for that building.
4. The time coordination for all flights was very well planned. Both 767s (AA-11 and United-175) departed BOS Logan within a minute of each other, both bound for LAX. The flight paths followed by each aircraft however were very different. I think this was designed partly to confuse the ATC centers and the FAA. Maybe someone can confirm if the flight paths followed, actually caused the aircraft to be handled by different ATC centers. Partly this also allowed the aircraft to arrive at the WTC towers about 20 minutes apart, thus allowing the smoke to clear enough from the first impact to allow success with the second impact.
The timing of the impact with the Pentagon occurred 35 minutes after the second impact at the WTC. Did they plan for the Pentagon to be full of military personel responding to the WTC impacts, by the time of this attack? Was the initial flight path of AA-77 towards the White House a possible diversion to prevent advanced notice and possible evacuation of the Pentagon? I can't think of any other reason for the fighter like hard course change into the Pentagon.
The last aircraft, United-93 was on a direct flight path to Washington D.C. from its course change at Cleveland, when it went down in Penn. It crashed at 10:10, maybe about half an hour from D.C. This aircraft would have arrived in D.C. with the lightest fuel load of all the attack aircraft. I think that this aircraft might have been "assigned" to the White House, as it would have been the smallest structure of those attacked, and maybe the terrorists thought a 757 with a lighter fuel load would have been enough for this building. Maybe the timing of its impact with the White House roughly an hour after the attack on the Pentagon, was designed to catch government personnel rallying at the White House after the Pentagon attack. I don't know, that's just a guess.
5. Finally, it would take some pretty good flying to perform all of this, with good navigation, some knowledge of ATC procedures, hand flying into the target buildings, and controlling the time of arrival at the targets. The pilot Tim Timmerman who saw the attack at the Pentagon, said that aircraft came in low and impacted the parking lot just in front of the Pentagon wall, dissipating some of its energy. He said the wings separated forward, the cockpit section broke off, and the whole mass plowed into the side of the building. The aircraft apparently struck some light poles on its low approach into the Pentagon.
That low approach (under the radar) and 270 degree high banked turn suggests to me someone with a military aviation background may have been flying AA-77, but I could be wrong. It's also possible that since United-93 was the last of these 4 aircraft remaining in the air, that news of what happened at the WTC and the Pentagon may have reached some of the passengers (via cell phones or other means). If they knew what was happening, then someone on board may have taken action to stop this flight, since they were fully aware that they were being hijacked.
God, what an awful thing. Trying to work out some the details is just my way of dealing with something like this. My thoughts and prayers have gone out to all who are involved. May God bless my nation at this terrible time.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...jack091101.htm
1. All 4 aircraft involved shared the same type rating (757/767 - as many have pointed out). This would make organization of this attack much easier by possibly allowing some of the suicide pilots with training to train others. All pilots would have been working with the same systems, and all would be on the same "page". This would also require the "penetration" of only one flight school for sim training or other training.
2. All flights originated on the east coast, bound for west coast destinations. Since all "targets" were east coast targets, that means all aircraft were fully loaded with fuel for their transcontinental flights, and arrived at their targets with substantial fuel loads, thus making the aircraft better bombs. All 4 flights also took off within 12 minutes of each other (see the link).
3. Each aircraft seems to have been "assigned" to its particular target based on that aircraft's size and fuel load. As we know, two 757s and two 767s were involved. Both 767s were "assigned" to the World Trade Center Towers, each was in the air for about an hour (more or less) before impacting the buildings, thus arriving at their targets with large (and comparable) fuel loads. The 767s were chosen for the WTC towers I believe because they were the largest structures attacked, and had the best chance of bringing the towers down.
While the Pentagon is a very large building, I don't think it's realistic (if I can use that word while discribing an unworldy scenerio) to take out the entire building in a single plane crash. That's why I think a 757 was chosen for that building.
4. The time coordination for all flights was very well planned. Both 767s (AA-11 and United-175) departed BOS Logan within a minute of each other, both bound for LAX. The flight paths followed by each aircraft however were very different. I think this was designed partly to confuse the ATC centers and the FAA. Maybe someone can confirm if the flight paths followed, actually caused the aircraft to be handled by different ATC centers. Partly this also allowed the aircraft to arrive at the WTC towers about 20 minutes apart, thus allowing the smoke to clear enough from the first impact to allow success with the second impact.
The timing of the impact with the Pentagon occurred 35 minutes after the second impact at the WTC. Did they plan for the Pentagon to be full of military personel responding to the WTC impacts, by the time of this attack? Was the initial flight path of AA-77 towards the White House a possible diversion to prevent advanced notice and possible evacuation of the Pentagon? I can't think of any other reason for the fighter like hard course change into the Pentagon.
The last aircraft, United-93 was on a direct flight path to Washington D.C. from its course change at Cleveland, when it went down in Penn. It crashed at 10:10, maybe about half an hour from D.C. This aircraft would have arrived in D.C. with the lightest fuel load of all the attack aircraft. I think that this aircraft might have been "assigned" to the White House, as it would have been the smallest structure of those attacked, and maybe the terrorists thought a 757 with a lighter fuel load would have been enough for this building. Maybe the timing of its impact with the White House roughly an hour after the attack on the Pentagon, was designed to catch government personnel rallying at the White House after the Pentagon attack. I don't know, that's just a guess.
5. Finally, it would take some pretty good flying to perform all of this, with good navigation, some knowledge of ATC procedures, hand flying into the target buildings, and controlling the time of arrival at the targets. The pilot Tim Timmerman who saw the attack at the Pentagon, said that aircraft came in low and impacted the parking lot just in front of the Pentagon wall, dissipating some of its energy. He said the wings separated forward, the cockpit section broke off, and the whole mass plowed into the side of the building. The aircraft apparently struck some light poles on its low approach into the Pentagon.
That low approach (under the radar) and 270 degree high banked turn suggests to me someone with a military aviation background may have been flying AA-77, but I could be wrong. It's also possible that since United-93 was the last of these 4 aircraft remaining in the air, that news of what happened at the WTC and the Pentagon may have reached some of the passengers (via cell phones or other means). If they knew what was happening, then someone on board may have taken action to stop this flight, since they were fully aware that they were being hijacked.
God, what an awful thing. Trying to work out some the details is just my way of dealing with something like this. My thoughts and prayers have gone out to all who are involved. May God bless my nation at this terrible time.
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There seems to be plenty of evidence that these atrocities were very well planned, so it also seems to me to be a reasonable assumption that the pilots were trained and thus probably type rated on the 75/76.
The profession of airline pilot is not exempt from extremism.
September 11, 2001 saw the world as we knew it change for ever.
The profession of airline pilot is not exempt from extremism.
September 11, 2001 saw the world as we knew it change for ever.
I am a figment of my own imagination
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Arrived in Athens just after the Saudi 744 diverted due bomb scare and was then held on ground by CAA decree on movements, went into terminal to try and sort it out only to see the most horrifying sights on the TV everyone was clustered around.
It has been a profoundly shocking experience, it was an act that will have reverberations that will effect every single one of us in some way or another for the worse.
It was a knock on the door of Armageddon by the forces of chaos and destruction. The nihilists who care nothing for innocent lives have used our profession to create mass murder and create havoc.
God rest the souls of those who died, our deepest sympathy to America and hopefully the mobilisation of all who might in any way help track down anyone who might have assisted or taken part in any part of the horrendous act we have all witnessed
It has been a profoundly shocking experience, it was an act that will have reverberations that will effect every single one of us in some way or another for the worse.
It was a knock on the door of Armageddon by the forces of chaos and destruction. The nihilists who care nothing for innocent lives have used our profession to create mass murder and create havoc.
God rest the souls of those who died, our deepest sympathy to America and hopefully the mobilisation of all who might in any way help track down anyone who might have assisted or taken part in any part of the horrendous act we have all witnessed
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CNN in the U.S. is now saying that the pilots housed in Florida who are thought to have flown the jets into the WTC towers and Pentagon had previous Saudi addresses, and that they were in fact either Saudi air pilots or trained by Saudi air. They had addresses in Jeddah.
This information is HIGHLY speculative.
Does anyone care to venture a guess as to the speed at impact at the WTC? It looked to be extremely high - certainly over 400 knots. The audio from eyewitness tapes sounds like full throttle.
This information is HIGHLY speculative.
Does anyone care to venture a guess as to the speed at impact at the WTC? It looked to be extremely high - certainly over 400 knots. The audio from eyewitness tapes sounds like full throttle.
Trash du Blanc
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He was firewall throttle. He almost made it completely through - most of his fuel did, exploding on the other side. You can see the core of one engine passing out the far side and streaking away, still producing a little thrust.
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Case 1. I strongly believe that there has NOT been a lack of restraint or indeed common sense in this discussion, it is simply human nature to reason and find out what happened on board the four aircraft, so that we can sympathise with the victims and ensure that every precaution necessary is taken in the future ensuring that these horrific events do not occur again,thus technical speculation must ensue such an event.This is a tradgedy which has affected the world and people need to discuss every aspect of it in order to have a sense of closure and a time to grieve. 
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I don't believe the hijackers were just sim or MS flight sim trained.
Flying a sim can only help you with flight procedures but not the mind set of flying the real aircraft. I don't believe a PPL or a sim trained pilot could handle such a controlled flight and a suacidal targeting at such a low altitude.
Flying a sim can only help you with flight procedures but not the mind set of flying the real aircraft. I don't believe a PPL or a sim trained pilot could handle such a controlled flight and a suacidal targeting at such a low altitude.
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The U.S. Attorney General (head of the Department of Justice) announced there were between 3 and 6 hijackers per plane.
One of the suspected hijackers had a disagreement about a restaurant bill in Florida, and said he could easily pay it because 'he was a pilot.'
At least two of the hijackers of the American 767 out of BOS supposedly flew into Logan Airport from Portland Maine (PWM?) on an American Eagle flight. Their luggage was not transfered in time to make the LAX-bound American flight. The luggage is providing useful information. Having arrived on a connecting flight, they likely would not have gone through a security checkpoint at BOS.
One of the suspected hijackers had a disagreement about a restaurant bill in Florida, and said he could easily pay it because 'he was a pilot.'
At least two of the hijackers of the American 767 out of BOS supposedly flew into Logan Airport from Portland Maine (PWM?) on an American Eagle flight. Their luggage was not transfered in time to make the LAX-bound American flight. The luggage is providing useful information. Having arrived on a connecting flight, they likely would not have gone through a security checkpoint at BOS.