type-rated (757) terrorists ?
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The mobile calls from the poor people on board these aircraft indicated that the terrorists were stabbing, or threatening to stab, the cabin crew to entice them out of the flight deck (FD). All this brings in to stark relief that if these fanatics hadn't gained access to the controls then these tragedies would be have been less likely to happen.
In my ops manual, any cabin disturbance should never be a reason to leave the flight deck. I wonder whether the pilots in the crashed aircraft were forced out of the FD, or left it to try and help their crew? It must have been a bloody invidious position to be in and I can't believe that any one put in their position with knowledge of previous hijacks, mainly ending peacefully, can blame them for their actions (whatever they were, despite this outcome). I feel however that in the near future that there may be some sort of legislation to keep the pilots at the controls and FD doors to remain locked at all times. This would make pee breaks, food and drink moments a bit interesting to achieve, particularly on long haul. Does any one out there have any thoughts on this one?
In my ops manual, any cabin disturbance should never be a reason to leave the flight deck. I wonder whether the pilots in the crashed aircraft were forced out of the FD, or left it to try and help their crew? It must have been a bloody invidious position to be in and I can't believe that any one put in their position with knowledge of previous hijacks, mainly ending peacefully, can blame them for their actions (whatever they were, despite this outcome). I feel however that in the near future that there may be some sort of legislation to keep the pilots at the controls and FD doors to remain locked at all times. This would make pee breaks, food and drink moments a bit interesting to achieve, particularly on long haul. Does any one out there have any thoughts on this one?
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Scroggs, you're probably right. It probably is down to an arab nation. However, the US would be unwise not to look at it's own first (at least before nuking Afghanistan!). There are plenty of home-grown crazies there to get off on this sort of thing, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if some of them have large jet experience...
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Reports this morning say that Arabic language flight manuals were found in a rental car in BOS. Also, search warrants are being executed in Daytona Beach, home of one of the Embry Riddle campuses that trains many students of Middle Eastern origin. Apparently at least some of the hijackers held UAE passports.
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From the Washington Post - a fair amount of journalistic license, however this does support the belief that the terrorists involved had considerable depth of knowledge of the aircraft.
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The hijacked jetliner that slammed into the Pentagon had been flying directly at the White House but made a sharp turn at the last minute before it crashed into the US military headquarters, The Washington Post reported Wednesday.
Citing unnamed sources, the report said American Airlines Flight 77 seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House Tuesday until the unidentified pilot executed a fighter jet maneuver, circling 270 degrees to to approach the Pentagon from the west.
The Post said someone on board turned off the transponder, the device that sends a plane's airline identification, flight number, speed and altitude to controllers' radar screens. The actions suggest the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, probably by a trained pilot was at the helm, with someone who knew how to turn off the transponder.
It said controllers had time to warn the White House that the jet was aimed directly at the presidential mansion at full speed.
The report said the FBI had asked airline, airport and security officials not to divulge details of the flight.
Pentagon officials had no estimate of the killed, missing and wounded from the Boeing 757, which collapsed a large section of the building's west side.
Reports that as many 800 people were dead were "completely inaccurate," a Pentagon official said speaking on condition of anonymity.
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The hijacked jetliner that slammed into the Pentagon had been flying directly at the White House but made a sharp turn at the last minute before it crashed into the US military headquarters, The Washington Post reported Wednesday.
Citing unnamed sources, the report said American Airlines Flight 77 seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House Tuesday until the unidentified pilot executed a fighter jet maneuver, circling 270 degrees to to approach the Pentagon from the west.
The Post said someone on board turned off the transponder, the device that sends a plane's airline identification, flight number, speed and altitude to controllers' radar screens. The actions suggest the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, probably by a trained pilot was at the helm, with someone who knew how to turn off the transponder.
It said controllers had time to warn the White House that the jet was aimed directly at the presidential mansion at full speed.
The report said the FBI had asked airline, airport and security officials not to divulge details of the flight.
Pentagon officials had no estimate of the killed, missing and wounded from the Boeing 757, which collapsed a large section of the building's west side.
Reports that as many 800 people were dead were "completely inaccurate," a Pentagon official said speaking on condition of anonymity.
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United Airlines tested a bunch of low time private pilots in heavy jet sims a few years ago and the majority of them were able to fly the planes however it was not precise flying and the landings were hairy but survivable. The kind of flying we saw yesterday would have required some time in the sim to transition. The second plane that hit the WTC certainly looked like it was being slipped precisely.
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The find of arabic language flight manuals is great for the investigators but sounds a little... suspicious. It would be very careless of the perpetrators to leave something like that hanging around the airport...
Remember the tapes exhibit the hijackers communicating with each other in English.
Remember the tapes exhibit the hijackers communicating with each other in English.
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Do you really believe that a pilot without any previous jet experience could fly a B767 or a B757 during a low flight, presumably at 250kt or faster, make that precise small turn just prior to hit exactly the target?
A FS pilot only could fly an airplane if the A/P were engaged, hands on experience is quite nil. If non experienced pilots would have tried that maneuver, without any doubt, they'd flown to the wrong direction, at least once, and in those cases, there were only one attempt (except UAL757).
I don't think that B767/757 simulator training is required to fly those airplanes since you have some knowledge of FMS, MCP controls, and of course some jet airplane reaction experience, during manual flight. Landing practice wasn't absolutely required...
A FS pilot only could fly an airplane if the A/P were engaged, hands on experience is quite nil. If non experienced pilots would have tried that maneuver, without any doubt, they'd flown to the wrong direction, at least once, and in those cases, there were only one attempt (except UAL757).
I don't think that B767/757 simulator training is required to fly those airplanes since you have some knowledge of FMS, MCP controls, and of course some jet airplane reaction experience, during manual flight. Landing practice wasn't absolutely required...
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From the time of deviation from submitted flight path to impact, FAA should have known the hijacking for about 30 minutes.
Was FAA and FBI aware of the conspiracy after crashing at WTC and were there any other plane deviated from regular flight path at that time?
It was a wise decision to ground all flights over the America yesterday.
From the flight path, transponder was turned off and precision flying, there is little doubt, those planes were commanded by trained pilots.
My condolence to Americans and may those RIP.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...jack091101.htm
Was FAA and FBI aware of the conspiracy after crashing at WTC and were there any other plane deviated from regular flight path at that time?
It was a wise decision to ground all flights over the America yesterday.
From the flight path, transponder was turned off and precision flying, there is little doubt, those planes were commanded by trained pilots.
My condolence to Americans and may those RIP.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...jack091101.htm
Regarding flight training, found this...
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The FBI interviewed a Venice, Fla., couple Wednesday about two men who stayed at their house for a week in July 2000 while the men were taking small-plane flight training at Venice Municipal Airport.
FBI agents "informed me that there were two individuals that were students at Huffman Aviation, my employer, and FBI told me they were involved in yesterday's tragedy,'' said Charlie Voss, who was interviewed with his wife, Drew Voss, at their home.
The couple accepted the two men as house guests as a favor to the company, Voss said. The men, who stayed just a few days, trained at the airport and came to the house to sleep, he said.
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The FBI interviewed a Venice, Fla., couple Wednesday about two men who stayed at their house for a week in July 2000 while the men were taking small-plane flight training at Venice Municipal Airport.
FBI agents "informed me that there were two individuals that were students at Huffman Aviation, my employer, and FBI told me they were involved in yesterday's tragedy,'' said Charlie Voss, who was interviewed with his wife, Drew Voss, at their home.
The couple accepted the two men as house guests as a favor to the company, Voss said. The men, who stayed just a few days, trained at the airport and came to the house to sleep, he said.
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The Aircrew were told that no-one would be hurt if they co-operated. No one had any clue these guys were suicide hijackers. I imagine they were expecting to spend a few days onboard on the ground at somewhere like Cuba. I hope no one dares to question the crews actions! Just ask yourselves guy's what would you do?
Condolence to all innocents involved
The world changed forever yesterday & I lost my faith in humanity. All that in the name of religon?....Oh Please!!
Condolence to all innocents involved
The world changed forever yesterday & I lost my faith in humanity. All that in the name of religon?....Oh Please!!
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Assuming the hijackers had some training and/or advanced knowlege of the 757/767, would it not be prudent for the FAA to perhaps ground all 57s/67s for a few extra days while they further their investigation?
I know this would be devastating to some carriers that rely on these types quite heavily, though more hulls/lives lost would be an even greater concern. Some carriers, like Southwest, Alaskan, or Northwest would feel little effect.
I know this would be devastating to some carriers that rely on these types quite heavily, though more hulls/lives lost would be an even greater concern. Some carriers, like Southwest, Alaskan, or Northwest would feel little effect.
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The question raised over the "slipping" of the aircraft into the second tower is interesting. I have watched the approach of the UA 767 into the building and concluded:
1. The pilot crossed his controls to expose the wings to 5-10 floors, as opposed to crashing in into one, to gain maximum devastation.
2. It was a higly executed and professional flying manouver to precisely hit the spot and to prevent any possible drift - which suggests complete manual control over the aircraft.
It is also interesting to note that at least one of the aircraft, before the transponder was turned off, indicated a new airport code had been entered into the FMC which suggests the hijackers had enough knowledge to re-do the route. This would indicate a relatively high level of workings in the systems and handling of the aircraft - something that would surely come from groundschool and sim preparations.
A shocking, deeply disturbing episode in world history.
May God give wisdom to those left, and blessings to those lost.
1. The pilot crossed his controls to expose the wings to 5-10 floors, as opposed to crashing in into one, to gain maximum devastation.
2. It was a higly executed and professional flying manouver to precisely hit the spot and to prevent any possible drift - which suggests complete manual control over the aircraft.
It is also interesting to note that at least one of the aircraft, before the transponder was turned off, indicated a new airport code had been entered into the FMC which suggests the hijackers had enough knowledge to re-do the route. This would indicate a relatively high level of workings in the systems and handling of the aircraft - something that would surely come from groundschool and sim preparations.
A shocking, deeply disturbing episode in world history.
May God give wisdom to those left, and blessings to those lost.
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I was in a 744 sim with a guy who flew under the Golden Gate bridge 10mins after taking the controls with no previous flying experience. A/T engaged but no other aids.
Assuming the crew or automatics got them to within visual range and in relatively stable flight, I don't see that type-rating would have been needed to do the final deadly part.
Horrible day, RIP.
Assuming the crew or automatics got them to within visual range and in relatively stable flight, I don't see that type-rating would have been needed to do the final deadly part.
Horrible day, RIP.
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It seems to me that the available information can lead to many different conclusions. For example:
Was the bank the UA 767 executed a "brilliantely executed" "slip" to "inflict maximum damage"? Or was it a desparate bank to actually hit the building, when the terrorist feared he might miss it?
Was the reported 270 degree turn executed by the AA 757 before hitting the Pentagon a "fighter-like" maneuver? Or was it a second approach made necessary because the pilot missed the first one?
Either interpretation would be consistent with the evidence as we know it so far. We shouldn't discount the possibility that these nuts (to use the most polite word that comes to mind) had little more than a PPL (for basic flying skills) and some MS Flight Sim time (from which they could have learned the necessary instrument layout and use -- some of the instrument panels are amazingly detailed and, I'm told, accurate).
And if we're using turning off the transponder as evidence of their having had in-depth training, bear in mind that only one of the four flights (the AA 757 that crashed into the Pentagon) seems to have done so. Plus, turning off the transponder isn't hard -- all you need is to think to do it, and know what it looks like.
Was the bank the UA 767 executed a "brilliantely executed" "slip" to "inflict maximum damage"? Or was it a desparate bank to actually hit the building, when the terrorist feared he might miss it?
Was the reported 270 degree turn executed by the AA 757 before hitting the Pentagon a "fighter-like" maneuver? Or was it a second approach made necessary because the pilot missed the first one?
Either interpretation would be consistent with the evidence as we know it so far. We shouldn't discount the possibility that these nuts (to use the most polite word that comes to mind) had little more than a PPL (for basic flying skills) and some MS Flight Sim time (from which they could have learned the necessary instrument layout and use -- some of the instrument panels are amazingly detailed and, I'm told, accurate).
And if we're using turning off the transponder as evidence of their having had in-depth training, bear in mind that only one of the four flights (the AA 757 that crashed into the Pentagon) seems to have done so. Plus, turning off the transponder isn't hard -- all you need is to think to do it, and know what it looks like.
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I do have to admit that a good level of Stick and Rudder skill would of been required on jets if not on type.
However new desktop sims have copycat FMC, EFIS, EICAS and MCP etc etc. You would be surprised just how much someone with basic flying experience would learn from such a package. These computer facilities would without doubt prove to be a significant learning aid in getting to grips with the basics (and potentially more!) on the FMC, Autopilot, and general Systems.
On the other hand if you take into account the significant planning that would of been spent during the lead up to the horrific event. I would think that any serious terrorism organisation would try and ensure that the odds were not stacked against them in pulling off such a stunt by getting people trained up or getting people who were qualified.
I also feel that even though they apparently only had knives, if they were pilots or had done their homework then they would of known where to locate the Fire Axe and Crowbar etc etc. Those emergency items would be lethal in the wrong hands!
MG
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: Mister Geezer ]
However new desktop sims have copycat FMC, EFIS, EICAS and MCP etc etc. You would be surprised just how much someone with basic flying experience would learn from such a package. These computer facilities would without doubt prove to be a significant learning aid in getting to grips with the basics (and potentially more!) on the FMC, Autopilot, and general Systems.
On the other hand if you take into account the significant planning that would of been spent during the lead up to the horrific event. I would think that any serious terrorism organisation would try and ensure that the odds were not stacked against them in pulling off such a stunt by getting people trained up or getting people who were qualified.
I also feel that even though they apparently only had knives, if they were pilots or had done their homework then they would of known where to locate the Fire Axe and Crowbar etc etc. Those emergency items would be lethal in the wrong hands!
MG
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: Mister Geezer ]
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My humble opinion, as one who has been very closely affected by this, is that you may find some evidence among the ranks of a certain Afg**n airline named like a European space rocket (protecting Danny's site, I'll not actually name it).
The UAL 767 seemed to be flying at an extremely high speed, and that takes some skill. You cannot reproduce the change in pitch and feel forces on a 75/76 on a desktop, or in a Cessna. Out of trim, the 757 in particular is a load.
I'm livid. I feel like it's time to deliver some spare pleutonium, but I'll let the Government take it's course. Just because some other peoples' cultures are basically disfunctional, why vent your fury on innocents?
The UAL 767 seemed to be flying at an extremely high speed, and that takes some skill. You cannot reproduce the change in pitch and feel forces on a 75/76 on a desktop, or in a Cessna. Out of trim, the 757 in particular is a load.
I'm livid. I feel like it's time to deliver some spare pleutonium, but I'll let the Government take it's course. Just because some other peoples' cultures are basically disfunctional, why vent your fury on innocents?
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In The Latest CNN Headlines here in the US, two Brothers are suspected in the crash. One of which was either a student or instructor at the Piper school in Vero Beach Florida (check out www.cnn.com) Vero Beach was evacuated to search the house, and neighbors were interogated saying that the "arabic" pilot and a female had moved out a few days before. Moreover, a gentleman called police the day of the crash after getting into a fight with four "arabic" looking men at the Boston Logan Airport regarding a parking space. Inside the car(Nissan Altima - a possible rental) a flight trainng manual in arabic was found along with UAE passports and some other items.