type-rated (757) terrorists ?

[piperindian]

Well, it seems from the passengers (who called on the cellulars) that the pilots where whisked away from the cockpit and the terrorists took control of the variouys planes, which are of only two types apparently, 757, 767.
This is disturbing, they probably had training with an experienced 757 or 767 pilot or instructor (middle-east operator ?).
This operation was well put-up and they did have few time to take control until point of impact. When you put someone without exp in a simulator, he does not fare too well.

God Bless America

[Capt PPRuNe]

As a B757/767 pilot, and I am sure many of my colleagues will concur, for anyone to take over the controls of one of these jets from anywhere not on a direct trajectory towards the targets, especially if not trimmed and if power is added or reduced, is likely to have had some, even if limited, training on type.

Someone somewhere has probably provided some sort of training, probably in a simulator, wittingly or unwittingly to these sub-humans who have caused this terrible tradgedy. Every training organisation worldwide must go back through their records and see if there is anything that they can find that would point to anyone with a profile that does not fit the norm. I cannot believe for one instant that there is ANY professional pilot anywhere int he world that would perpetrate this kind of senseless massacre whether voluntarily or even at gun or knife point.

[smallwing]

I think nowadays aircrafts are made too easy to fly, with full autopilots. How hard would it be to change heading, airspeed and alt. with the autopilot.

I think a person who plays enough video games (flightsim) knows exactly what can be done.

God bless all who were involved.

[Ace Rimmer]

I concur with smallwing I suspect that anyone with flt sim and one of the very realistic 757/767 add ons would probably have enough knowlege of the aircraft and its autopilot and FMC to have carried out the attack.

[Capt PPRuNe]

Anyone who has played with FS2000 or whatever may think they can control one of these jets at the drop of a hat but in my experience, and I remember the first time handling a big jet sim how difficult it was. Add to that the cockpit layout and the countless distractions it has to have been someone with some real sim training. No professional pilot would do this.

[swashplate]

I understand you can hire these sims for about £200/hr?

Maybe thats what happened - they posed as 'enthusiasts' and got to practice flying the 757?

Lots organisation behind this obviousley.....

RIP to all involved.

[scroggs]

I disagree. Autopilot controls are not sufficiently precise for an inexperienced pilot to hit as relatively small a target as the World Trade Centre or the Pentagon without precision guidance. It is conceivabe that a GPS-linked FMS guiding the autopilot might manage to hit these buildings, but that would require detailed knowledge of the precise FMS fitted to each of these aircraft. It is far more likely that these terrorists used experienced light-aircraft pilots who received a small amount of training in a B757/767 simulator to practise these exact manouevres.
It's a sick excercise, I know, but if you try to achieve something similar in FS2000 or other computer flight sim using an autopilot, I think you will discover that the chances of 'success' are far too small for the terrorists to have accepted. These pilots knew what they were doing.

[Evo7]

I remember being told that it would be hard for a PPL trained pilot to control a heavy passenger jet due to the significant momentum of the aircraft. Dealing with that is not difficult, but requires practice. Is this true? Presumably, then, it would imply that they must have had some sort of sim training?

[maxy101]

Interestingly enough, B.A runs simulator visits on its simulators for VIP's or just about anyone willing to pay. The standard sim-ride is to get airborne from JFK and fly through the "twin towers" !! As BA uses a standard database from the manufacturer, I wonder how many sim providers do similar things!!

[SaturnV]

the 757 that hit the Pentagon executed what seems to be a low level high speed attack and is described as maneuvering like a fighter. not likely a talent picked up in a sim.
see: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2001Sep11.html

[Loc-out]

Type rated? No I don't think so.
A training period at home with a suitable computer program and a "crash course" on an applicable simulator would be adequate to do the job.

[Flap 5]

I believe that maxy is spot on. All of these sims have the same database. It is clearly very easy to set up a simulator in the climb out of Boston for a crew to practise taking over the aircraft and flying it in to the World Trade Center - especially if the visual of Manhatten is in the database.

How many hours would it take to perfect this aswell as the operation of the autpilot and taking out the autopilot to fly it manually at the final stage? I reckon with Bin Laden's financial backing they could have spent as many hours as they needed in a sim.

However no simulator company would hire out their sim without knowing that there was a qualified instructor in charge of the sim detail. Therefore there has to be some airline involvement - possibly Iraq Air?

All of the aircraft were 757 / 767 which is a common rating. Check the useage of 757 / 767 sims over the last two years around the world and you will find something out.

[atprider]

Or - How about an "expert" opinion......

David Learmount, our old Flight International friend says in the Times Weds 12th:

"It would be very easy for a hijacker to order the pilot to fly to New York. At the last minute he could shoot him in the head, move the body out of the way and take over the controls of the plane. It would then be straight forward to fly it into a target as large as the building in question. Anyone could do it with ...no training whatsoever"

Ok, David, so even if there were no struggle from the other pilot, or any resulting human debris from the shooting to move a body (or two) without destabilising the aircraft to a point where it became difficult to control is IMHO very unlikely.

Unless of course the AP was engaged, in which case obviously some experience would be necessary to disengage it and continue controlled, and apparently extremely skilled flight.

This qoute seems to me to be very Ill advised for a man in such a position to make.
Opinions anyone ?

[Evo7]

Saturn V

I'm confused. Are you saying that it's a skill picked up in a fighter or a sign that the pilot was unskilled?? I'm just trying to understand the level of skill of the people flying those aircraft.

[SaturnV]

graphic of the flight paths of the four planes can be found at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...jack091101.htm


the plane that hit the pentagon had flown west all the way to kentucky before turning east.

[Velvet]

I understand that there are rumours coming out of America, reported this morning, that there were 8 planes hijacked and that 4 were shot down.

[scroggs]

I think it's entirely possible that extremist sympathisers who are ex-military or airline pilots from Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan or Pakistan (and maybe others) were involved. Having an ATPL doesn't make one necessarily right-minded, nor does being an extremist (of whatever persuasion) make it impossible for one to have the skill to fly an airliner. There are, I'm sure, 757/767 sims (or sims of similar types of aircraft)in those countries, and it may be very difficult to establish whether any unusual use was made of them recently.

Velvet:
I find it very unlikely that the crashes (for they must have crashed, having been shot down) of four further large aircraft would have gone un-noticed in the current media bunfest. Nothing of that nature could possibly have been suppressed; Americans would have been on to the phone to the local TV companies immediately anything fell out of the sky, and we would probably have home-video footage of some of it. No, I think that one is wishful thinking on the part of some local radio or TV junior hack.

[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: Scroggs ]

[Ace Rimmer]

Perhaps I should have said that they could use the autopilot/FMS to get themselves in the general area of the WTC or Pentagon. and then hand fly in the final phase - we're not talking about finesse. I'm not suggsting that this was the case just saying that it is possible.
On another point, I've done one of the these VIP (perk of being a journo) things at braincrank with the said hand flying around Manhattan and the WTC (744 sim) and frankly in the light of yesterday it was disturbingly easy (for a GA type of driver). I accept that with a clearly well researched attack the perps may and indeed, hopefully (since it may help in tracking them down) sought some kind of professional level training.

[SaturnV]

Evo7, not saying that the pentagon hijacker was a former fighter pilot. I am thinking that the hijacker probably had some hours in a jet aircraft, and that doesnt mean he was type-rated. But the overall flight profile and the description of him coming in very low and very fast and then banking right to hit the pentagon suggest to me that there were skills applied that one would not get easily from a sim.

[Case One]

An appalling lack of restraint and common sense is being shown by certain people on this web site. Any pilot will have a reasonable idea of how this can be achieved. Anyone else does not NEED TO KNOW. Can we all please stop any discussion of technical/operational methods that may have been used. Confine PUBLIC discussion to how to find the perps, stop the next attempt (and there will be a next attempt, and it could be your aircraft).