Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

UPS contract plane off runway - KCRW

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

UPS contract plane off runway - KCRW

Old 9th Jun 2018, 12:30
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: The South
Posts: 304
Received 54 Likes on 21 Posts
The weird thing is that the viz and cloud base look well good enough to see perfectly clearly that it was all wrong; so why press on with what is clearly a disastrous approach? A death wish?
Timmy Tomkins is offline  
Old 9th Jun 2018, 13:21
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Texas, like a whole other country
Posts: 444
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 1 Post
It is nice to see that phone SMS is now part of NTSBs tools, what is next, my old post cards and love letters.
I do appreciate that in this case without CVR and FDR and a crew that was a ultra incompetent in a company run like a 1970s bush operation , the NTSB would turn every stone.
Welcome to the not-so-new Millennium. FWIW, it appears NTSB limited its purview of the FO's text messages to items that were relevant to her flight experiences with this Captain. I would surmise old post cards and love letters would be safe, unless they somehow involved another member of the crew or the flight in question.

Back to the point, cowboys do still seem to be out there. The part from the NTSB docket cited by Airbubba may indicate some issues within the carrier. They may not have been system-wide but it would appear some individuals probably deserved some special attention. If the Captain had indeed failed some check rides, that raises some questions which will hopefully be answered when the final report is issued.
Carbon Bootprint is offline  
Old 9th Jun 2018, 14:39
  #63 (permalink)  
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 1,874
Received 60 Likes on 18 Posts
If you don't want the NTSB to look at your social media postings (post mortem), you might want to reconsider your choice of employment.
Two's in is offline  
Old 9th Jun 2018, 16:27
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Confusio Helvetica
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The messages did show that the captain had issues getting enough sleep in the recent past, that he improvised poorly, that he "does not like to be in IMC", and tended to bank hard and lose a lot of altitude. From the investigation, I think we can safely conclude that he had sufficient rest at the time of the accident.

The FO did stand up to the him on one occasion, after one week he had her fly every leg so that he could get some sleep. On Thursday, she told him off, and on Friday, he gave her a "good job" plaque.

So, here's the problem. You've got an outfit with about 20 aircraft, 20 captains and 20 FOs stationed at 20 airfields. This is the FO's first job, and it's also clear from her texts that any action she took would likely result in her moving. Both she and the Captain seemed to have SOs in the area.
In late February, she texted this about talking to the chief pilot: "He asked me if [the captainís] gotten any better and I'm like ummm..he can fly in VFR..lol"

So, like it or not, her SMS history paints a picture of her job and of the captain, that frankly explains how someone would not want to go around (and back to IMC), misjudge the approach on a downsloping tabletop runway early in the morning, bank for the final, and drop it hard.

If you expect a low-hours FO to stand up to a bush league captain, who is sixteen years her senior and two-and-a-half times her weight, well she did, just probably not in time in that dive for the field. Did she say something to the CP? Yes, just not necessarily clear enough that this guy was a danger to himself and others? Well, how much experience did she have? Normalization of deviance, etc. How much are you willing to say, "It's not so bad. He made it to age 47. Just another year of this and I'll have 1500 hours."?
DingerX is offline  
Old 9th Jun 2018, 16:32
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,486
Received 95 Likes on 56 Posts
What an horrendous accident. What the hell was the Captain thinking and doing????????? The visibility and conditions seem perfectly OK for a normal approach and landing, how on earth did he manage to get so far out of shape? Incapacitation, unrecognised ADI failure?

What about company SOPs for stable approaches? Where there any??

Secondly, I’m sorry, I am going to sound very old fashioned here but I cannot believe that anyone - even a 600 hour rookie - thinks it is acceptable and prudent to send text messages while airborne as a pilot of an aircraft, especially when flying a non-autopilot aircraft as PF, and while the other crew member is taking ‘controlled rest’* !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why was her phone even switched on during flight?

To those who say this F/O should have said something and taken control; yes, of course she should, but I ask this: F/Os are told they must step in and take control, but what training is given to F/O’s about how to actually do this? Conflict management needs to be actually taught, it is no good just putting everyone through CRM training** and ticking their attendance record. Not every one is comfortable or even able to stand up to an aggressive person - especially if the Captain is a gruff, uncommunicative “gear up shut up” type and/or the F/O is perhaps towards the meeker end of the spectrum. Not everyone has had the life experience of facing down bullies in bars etc.


*Yes, I know it wasn’t really ‘controlled rest’, I am being charitable here.

**CRM training usually consists of a morning in a classroom watching some powerpoint presentations and answering questions such as “What is CRM?”, while most in the room are trying to get finished and go home as soon as possible. On more than one occasion I have heard attendees say ‘don’t ask any questions, we want to get this finished ASAP and beat the traffic to get home’. And those difficult Captains who most need to learn about CRM mysteriously never seem to be on these courses. I have never seen any practical training given in conflict management or how to deal with a difficult Captain.

Last edited by Uplinker; 10th Jun 2018 at 11:47.
Uplinker is online now  
Old 9th Jun 2018, 20:29
  #66 (permalink)  

"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: England
Age: 77
Posts: 4,136
Received 221 Likes on 64 Posts
Things change. When I was flying I always made a point to the FO that he/she was the check against me getting it wrong. "If you don't like what I'm doing, say so. I'll either explain to you why, to your satisfaction, or we stay on the ground/ abandon the approach until we are both happy".
Herod is offline  
Old 9th Jun 2018, 21:33
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Bermuda Triangle
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
That is how it should be, of course. CRM and MCC. But after decades of including this in initial training, simulators and ground courses, things have not become much better. And they may get worse. An FO with 2000 hours may have the confidence to doubt the captain but hardly an FO with 200 hours.
svhar is offline  
Old 10th Jun 2018, 07:51
  #68 (permalink)  

"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: England
Age: 77
Posts: 4,136
Received 221 Likes on 64 Posts
svhar. Exactly why I made my point. We were both learning. the F.O. because they had an awful lot to learn, me because "the more you know, the more you know you don't know". Not quite Rumsfeld, but you get what I mean.
Herod is offline  
Old 10th Jun 2018, 12:05
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,486
Received 95 Likes on 56 Posts
@Herod, you were obviously one of the good guys: the sort that when you see their name as you check in you smile and think, fantastic! he is a nice guy and it will be a good day. The majority of pilots I fly with are good guys/gals, (and one trainer who taught me really was an actual sky god - a terrific bloke), but there are the occasional idiots with an inflated ego and sense of self importance.

They are reducing in numbers now, but there were too many Captains who thought they were a sky god. Not realising that the only reason the entire crew, the ground staff, the fueller, the dispatcher, Operations, passengers etc, etc, appeared to respect them and look up to them was not because they were actually a sky god*, (or even good pilots), but that legally they are responsible for the flight, so their decision is final.



*(they were/are in fact annoying little twats, who if they were not my boss and they behaved liked that in a bar, would get punched).
Uplinker is online now  
Old 10th Jun 2018, 13:25
  #70 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BluSdUp
It is nice to see that phone SMS is now part of NTSBs tools, what is next, my old post cards and love letters.
When a smart phone is found in the proximity of a car, truck, or bus driver (or railroad engineer) the authorities check for both voice and SMS. Do you believe that to be inappropriate?

I recall the NTSB was able to determine probable cause in a California train crash several years ago based on the engineer's use of his smart phone.
aterpster is offline  
Old 10th Jun 2018, 17:20
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: 60 north
Age: 59
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Aterpster

Yes , lets use the word inappropriate and not immoral or illegal, just for arguments sake.
As I wrote, in this case , without CVR or FDR or personal OFDM as we have, I can see the exception.

But I am strongly against flightdeck Video, more then 2 hrs CVR and personalized OFDM.
It is abused by some company's.

I do not like CCTVs and NSA et Al being able to suck out any info from anyone. The world does not become any safer by these devices on a general basis, what we need is less nutters and more people in government. Clearly demonstrated in Canada yesterday and in Singapore on Tuesday.

And on a specific case like this, it is clear that FAA did not have proper control over this Company and its somewhat strange structure and minimalist approach to Ops Training and Safety. The SMS messages did confirm that both were not up to standard, that I have to admit. It is clear to me that it is the Company and FAA that failed here, no need for reading SMS, big need for Auditing and a better model for this kind of Ops.

But , looking at the postings her , Post Mortem, I suppose more the one of us would loose our medical and command, retroactively , if taken seriously at all postings.
No one will ever get my phone , as there will never be any need.
Happy Flying
BluSdUp is offline  
Old 10th Jun 2018, 17:48
  #72 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BluSdUp
No one will ever get my phone , as there will never be any need.
Happy Flying
They don't need the actual phone.
aterpster is offline  
Old 10th Jun 2018, 20:00
  #73 (permalink)  

"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: England
Age: 77
Posts: 4,136
Received 221 Likes on 64 Posts
Uplinker. The sky-god who trained you didn't have the initials JB did he?
Herod is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2019, 01:23
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by BluSdUp
It is nice to see that phone SMS is now part of NTSBs tools, what is next, my old post cards and love letters.
Data was harvested from the captain's CPAP machine as well as the pilot's phone records:

From the NTSB Aviation Accident Final Report:

According to data from the captain's CPAP machine, he used the machine between about 0659 and 1630. Data from the first officer's personal electronic devices (PED) indicated activity about 1755. The flight crew departed CRW for SDF about 2302.

The flight crew arrived at SDF about 0025 on May 3. They departed SDF about 0450 and arrived at CRW about 0549. The captain's CPAP machine showed use from 0654 until 1242 and his PED records showed an outgoing text message about 0715. PED records for the first officer indicated activity from 1711 to about 1800. The flight crew departed CRW for SDF about 2302.

The flight crew arrived at SDF about 1206 on May 4. They departed SDF about 0528 on a return flight to CRW, arriving about 0637. The captain's CPAP showed use from 0712 to 1511. He cooked dinner for his girlfriend that night and met her around 1900. He got ready for work around 2100. The first officer's PED records showed an outgoing text message about 1330. She talked to her brother from 1658 to 1838, cooked dinner, then talked to her brother again.
No surprise on the Probable Cause:


Probable Cause and Findings

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:

the flight crew's improper decision to conduct a circling approach contrary to the operator's standard operating procedures (SOP) and the captain's excessive descent rate and maneuvering during the approach, which led to inadvertent, uncontrolled contact with the ground. Contributing to the accident was the operator's lack of a formal safety and oversight program to assess hazards and compliance with SOPs and to monitor pilots with previous performance issues.
The Final Report is posted here:

https://t.co/t7ImyP4PFT
Airbubba is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.