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So WestJet almost puts one of their 737 in the water while landing at St-Maarten...

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So WestJet almost puts one of their 737 in the water while landing at St-Maarten...

Old 24th Aug 2018, 21:02
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Thats what they said too
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 22:06
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the hotel looks like a runway, open water, taxiway full of aircraft looks like a runway, snowbank looks like a runway...

what doesnt AC consider a runway...besides an actual runway?

I like where AC says they want an RNP procedure into the airport, but because of the hurricane, the airport lost their paperwork....(RNP procedure for a non-GPS aircraft)

Last edited by underfire; 24th Aug 2018 at 22:41.
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 22:57
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Do you think that for the price of a bucket of paint, the airport authorities could prevent a re-occurrence, by offering to paint the Hotel with a suitable design that would not be confused with a runway.
Never headed for the hotel, that is but an excuse. Look at the flightpath.


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Old 24th Aug 2018, 23:02
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Originally Posted by underfire View Post
the hotel looks like a runway, open water, taxiway full of aircraft looks like a runway, snowbank looks like a runway...

what doesnt AC consider a runway...besides an actual runway?

I like where AC says they want an RNP procedure into the airport, but because of the hurricane, the airport lost their paperwork....(RNP procedure for a non-GPS aircraft)
Why Is Air Canada brought up when this is a West Jet incident?
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Old 25th Aug 2018, 00:32
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oh crap....sorry....been a long week!
Thanks for the correction...there was the general discussion about Canadian rules, and I blended all the mishaps from AC with WJ.

actually, WJ does have very good RNP AR capabilities.
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Old 25th Aug 2018, 14:34
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Originally Posted by underfire View Post
actually, WJ does have very good RNP AR capabilities.
Does that not open even more questions? THY effectively did the first RNAV autoland about two years ago, and almost got away with it.

AFAIK the b737 RNP capabilities, including the cockpit presentation are top of the game.

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Old 25th Aug 2018, 16:26
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Originally Posted by Jet Jockey A4 View Post
Why Is Air Canada brought up when this is a West Jet incident?
There are similarities - excursion below correct approach height on non-precision approach and transient changes in visibility - with AC accident at Halifax in March 2015.
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Old 25th Aug 2018, 18:24
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Even Liverpool has gantry mounted approach lights, (in the Mersey.), but I suppose that with this being a holiday resort, they would not consider that to be an important option.
.
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Old 25th Aug 2018, 18:49
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Exclamation

scfi,

Besides the Mersey not being a holiday destination, the other big difference is that Liverpool doesn’t get hurricanes.

The issue here was not related to the lack of approach lights, but losing sight of the airfield.

My first experience of flying to a Caribbean island was AA into Providenciales. There was a small shower parked over the approach, so the captain announced we would hold for 15 minutes until it had moved on. The WestJet crew should have done the same.
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Old 26th Aug 2018, 02:10
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The issue here was not related to the lack of approach lights, but losing sight of the airfield
....er, isn’t the former a major contributor to the latter? If there’d been Approach lights their SA would have been somewhat enhanced.....I’ve mistaken other objects for a runway in the past in reduced vis, but a set of bright approach lights removes the threat of accidentally seeing what you want to see......

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Old 26th Aug 2018, 13:39
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
Does that not open even more questions? THY effectively did the first RNAV autoland about two years ago, and almost got away with it.

AFAIK the b737 RNP capabilities, including the cockpit presentation are top of the game.

The question it opens in my mind is why they didn't have a company special RNP AR approach when they commenced operations into St. Maarten. They have RNP AR specials at many of their Canadian airports.Indeed, the 737 from the -400 on, has been fully RNP AR capable.
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Old 26th Aug 2018, 21:21
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Yes, they do have AR into most of their airports in Canada. BUT, AFAIK, they have not been very successful with approvals outside of Canada..in the press, they say they had one submitted, but the airport lost it...

It takes virtually nothing to get an RNP AR approved in Canada, I was rattling off a few RNP-AR procedures a week.

AFAIK the b737 RNP capabilities, including the cockpit presentation are top of the game.
Well, I would not say that categorically. Depending on the box, and the MMR, but is seems many of the RNP procedures are much easier with the bus. I have had to do far many more workarounds with the Smiths box than the Honeywell box. It is getting better. There are many things the Smiths box just wont do, that Honeywell does nicely, especially AR. Note that into Lhasa and Cuzco, it was AB, not lazy B.
Same for RNAP AR CATIII autoland, and RNP-AR transition to GBAS final...no way on a lazy B..I have a few CAT III GBAS autoland in military ops...

Last edited by underfire; 26th Aug 2018 at 22:00.
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Old 26th Aug 2018, 22:27
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I think we will find that this crew was incompetent .
WHO in the right mind descends below 200 feet without the runway insight on a nonprecition! Never mind 100 , 50 40,,,,,,,,,
Total lack of vertical profile awareness . Not fit for flight . End off!
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Old 27th Aug 2018, 00:24
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Originally Posted by underfire View Post
Note that into Lhasa and Cuzco, it was AB, not lazy B.
Isn't a Peruvian operator into Cuzco doing those great RNP AR IAPs (and DPs) with fairly late model B737s?
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Old 27th Aug 2018, 18:05
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Originally Posted by BluSdUp View Post
I think we will find that this crew was incompetent .
WHO in the right mind descends below 200 feet without the runway insight on a nonprecition! Never mind 100 , 50 40,,,,,,,,,
Total lack of vertical profile awareness . Not fit for flight . End off!
Im not the type of making these statements, but I agree with you on this one
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Old 27th Aug 2018, 23:18
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Yep. Even if they had mistaken the Hotel initially, was the VNAV not showing a thing? If you decided to bust minima, would you not just follow the VNAV which could take you to RWY? So many questions.
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Old 27th Aug 2018, 23:32
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sn't a Peruvian operator into Cuzco doing those great RNP AR IAPs (and DPs) with fairly late model B737s?
Yes, eventually.
In the beginning, the box simply would not accept a runway endpoint over 10,000 feet. No matter what we tried, PINS, waypoint on threshold, unless the waypoint is RWY terminator, and in the database as such, just no way. The lazy B had so many things hard and soft coded into the logic and systems with 10,000 so that pilots would not bust the check ride, it took a while to weed it out.
They did eventually fix this, but it took sometime, especially with Jepp as a competitor, so I think you know how that went.

This is why so many of the real challenging airports were AB first.
Cuzco, Lhasa, Linzhi, Queenstown, etc...

Last edited by underfire; 27th Aug 2018 at 23:43.
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 01:03
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Originally Posted by underfire View Post
Yes, eventually.
In the beginning, the box simply would not accept a runway endpoint over 10,000 feet. No matter what we tried, PINS, waypoint on threshold, unless the waypoint is RWY terminator, and in the database as such, just no way. The lazy B had so many things hard and soft coded into the logic and systems with 10,000 so that pilots would not bust the check ride, it took a while to weed it out.
They did eventually fix this, but it took sometime, especially with Jepp as a competitor, so I think you know how that went.

This is why so many of the real challenging airports were AB first.
Cuzco, Lhasa, Linzhi, Queenstown, etc...
I guess this is why the FAA is so insistent on operator and airframe specific validation of the integrity and performance of an RNP AR procedure.

From a pilot's perspective Cuzco is betting on the come, so to speak, because the missed approach is arduous and problematic in the event of an engine failure. I doubt the FAA would approve those Cuzco approaches for a U.S. 121 operator because of the missed approach.

Nonetheless, "buckets" of tourists go from Lima to Cuzco everyday during the season. I suspect the pilots are very conservative about the minimums.
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 02:54
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Originally Posted by underfire View Post
This is why so many of the real challenging airports were AB first.
Cuzco, Lhasa, Linzhi, Queenstown, etc...
Really? I thought QF pioneered the RNP-AR at Queenstown with their 737's years before any Airbus was authorised to fly it.
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 16:56
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Yes, this is true, it did begin with QF on the first iteration to 0.3RNP. I forgot about that one. The 0.1 was with ANZ and the bus.
Damn, cant believe that is about 15 years ago...
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